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Playstation Move [split topic]

Started by Slaaaaabs, March 11, 2010, 10:27:04 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

chand

Quote from: jutl on March 12, 2010, 02:19:11 PM
I'm not comparing it with PS3 or 360 games. You asked how I knew people were enjoying it, and I offered that as evidence. What happens with PS3 and 360 games isn't really relevant to that, surely?

But 'it keeps its price high' is meaningless without a point of reference, and I'm saying that similar games on other platforms, which we were comparing to Mario Kart earlier, lose value rapidly due to other factors besides quality. PS3 and 360 games simply don't maintain their second-hand value anything like as well for various reasons, with the notable exception of the Guitar Hero and Rock Band games, which curiously share some similarities with Mario Kart Wii (peripherals, party games you don't play on your own and dig out occasionally to impress your cousin/friends).

jutl

Quote from: chand on March 12, 2010, 02:57:02 PM
But 'it keeps its price high' is meaningless without a point of reference, and I'm saying that similar games on other platforms, which we were comparing to Mario Kart earlier, lose value rapidly due to other factors besides quality. PS3 and 360 games simply don't maintain their second-hand value anything like as well for various reasons, with the notable exception of the Guitar Hero and Rock Band games, which curiously share some similarities with Mario Kart Wii (peripherals, party games you don't play on your own and dig out occasionally to impress your cousin/friends).

I'm honestly not following you here. The comparison is simply between Mario Kart Wii new and Mario Kart Wii second-hand. I'm saying that one conclusion we could draw from a low second-hand value is that there are a lot of second hand copies about and that that might indicate that people have got tired of it (we're two years from its release now). I'm not trying to say that this makes it better than the other games we mentioned - just that it's a good indicator of its longevity as an enjoyable game.

You could argue, I guess, that comparable games on the PS3 and 360 have been superceded more frequently by decent competitors and that Mario Kart Wii has not really had that kind of competitive pressure. I'm not sure that that really changes things though. If you're bored of a game, you're bored of it, and likely to sell it.

chand

Quote from: jutl on March 12, 2010, 03:10:51 PM
I'm honestly not following you here. The comparison is simply between Mario Kart Wii new and Mario Kart Wii second-hand.

Yes, there's £15 difference. To see if that's unusual or not we have to look at other examples, because as a figure on its own it means nothing.

Quote from: jutl on March 12, 2010, 03:10:51 PMYou could argue, I guess, that comparable games on the PS3 and 360 have been superceded more frequently by decent competitors and that Mario Kart Wii has not really had that kind of competitive pressure. I'm not sure that that really changes things though.

I'd argue that changes things massively. FIFA 09 was by no means an unpopular game, it's the highest-rated football game in years. It's worth fuck-all second hand though, because it's been superceded by FIFA 10, which using the 'glancing at Amazon's used price' method, is 9x the game that FIFA 09 was.

Quote from: jutl on March 12, 2010, 03:10:51 PMIf you're bored of a game, you're bored of it, and likely to sell it.

I'd say the type of game Mario Kart is is a factor. I mentioned above Guitar Hero and Rock Band which DO maintain their value unusually well second-hand, far more than any other big-selling PS3/360 games I could find. Partly that may be due to the attached peripherals, and partly, I would suggest, it's because those are games frequently played by more 'casual' gamers. What difference does that make? Well, they're games you keep in your living room for when you have people over. People tend not to play Guitar Hero obsessively in single-player mode, the same goes for Mario Kart Wii. In contrast, PS3 and 360 racers like Motorstorm have single-player components which you will complete, and the multiplayer tends to be online. These type of gamers will hammer the fuck out of these games every night for weeks, then sell them when the next rival comes along. I know it's a bit of a generalisation, but a lot of 360/PS3 gamers will complete games, hammer the multiplayer for a while, then trade, whereas everyone I know who has a Wii plays it rarely and socially, because that's what it's for.

jutl

Quote from: chand on March 12, 2010, 04:17:27 PM
Yes, there's £15 difference. To see if that's unusual or not we have to look at other examples, because as a figure on its own it means nothing.

Aha I see what you mean. It's extremely unusual for a two year old game to command that kind of premium still, as a quick perusal on Amazon shows. The first COD:MW would be another rare example I think, and in both cases I think it's a fair indicator that people are continuing to play them.

Still Not George

Quote from: jutl on March 12, 2010, 04:36:55 PM
Aha I see what you mean. It's extremely unusual for a two year old game to command that kind of premium still, as a quick perusal on Amazon shows. The first COD:MW would be another rare example I think, and in both cases I think it's a fair indicator that people are continuing to play them.
That's a deeply flawed assumption. All the trade-in/resale price tells you is that there isn't a ready supply. There's more than one reason that can exist for that, as I mentioned a while back; a disproportionate number of people who aren't part of the buy at release/trade-in at leisure gamer "lifestyle" is a painfully obvious alternative explanation.

glitch

Quote from: jutl on March 12, 2010, 01:51:39 PM
Port?

edit: Sorry - I'm being stupid - you mean version. Well it's my favourite of the Mario Karts, having played all of them. None of them were what you'd call scrupulously fair games, but they weight the gameplay to ensure that everyone has a possibility of winning even up to the last minute. It's one of the reasons that it's so accessible, I reckon.

I think the problem with the weighting is that it almost punishes people for being good at the game. What's the point in being first for the entire race when you'll likely get knocked out just before the finish line by any number of pretty-much-unavoidable power-ups fired from someone who may be 8th... but is less than 20m behind you. In versions like the SNES/N64 (which I played the Hell out of) it was never as bad as that and knowing all the little tricks to a level could give you an advantage but never that much of one.

I had a games night with some friends and my housemate and we thought Mario Kart Wii would dominate the playlist but was only on for 3 races, as people just got so frustrated with the rubberbanding due to power-ups.

This could just be another hardcore/casual gamer argument though - I'd only have classed myself and one other as hardcore though, when compared to the rest of the group.

QuoteFurther edit to add: ...and I agree entirely about Brawl (and every Smash Bros game). I have, though, watched other people playing it and getting a huge buzz from it. I tend to think it's my problem that I can't, given its huge popularity.

I found it fun for a short while but it's very flawed. I don't know what type of game it's trying to be as it's a poor beat-em-up when compared to either button-mashers or technical fighters or the aforementioned Powerstone series (what genre would that count as?).

thugler

Quote from: glitch on March 12, 2010, 05:47:45 PM
I think the problem with the weighting is that it almost punishes people for being good at the game. What's the point in being first for the entire race when you'll likely get knocked out just before the finish line by any number of pretty-much-unavoidable power-ups fired from someone who may be 8th... but is less than 20m behind you. In versions like the SNES/N64 (which I played the Hell out of) it was never as bad as that and knowing all the little tricks to a level could give you an advantage but never that much of one.

I had a games night with some friends and my housemate and we thought Mario Kart Wii would dominate the playlist but was only on for 3 races, as people just got so frustrated with the rubberbanding due to power-ups.

This could just be another hardcore/casual gamer argument though - I'd only have classed myself and one other as hardcore though, when compared to the rest of the group.

I found it fun for a short while but it's very flawed. I don't know what type of game it's trying to be as it's a poor beat-em-up when compared to either button-mashers or technical fighters or the aforementioned Powerstone series (what genre would that count as?).

the n64 smash bros was great fun. But all the versions since they have stunk if you ask me. Don't know what they did but it just ruined it.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

What is this 'rubberbanding' that I keep hearing about?

Still Not George

When you start the game up, a tiny tiny Japanese person leaps out of the console, twangs a rubber band in your face and runs gleefully away as the baleful blue glow of the console bathes your empty life in its bleak rays.

Slaaaaabs

Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on March 12, 2010, 05:54:16 PM
What is this 'rubberbanding' that I keep hearing about?

The further a car is off the front the faster and better it will drive so as to keep it close and make the race 'interesting'. Similar thing happens in some other competitive games, for example in a football game you'll get speculative shots going in, defenders turning into sloths or the keeper making errors.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

SNG answered first, so I shall believe him.

Still Not George

Slaaaaabs is just trying to keep you from seeing the truth. "Rubberbanding" is code for "Nintendo Hitler Cloning Scheme".

Slaaaaabs

Hitler and his palette swapped brother Witler

jutl

Quote from: Still Not George on March 12, 2010, 05:41:28 PM
That's a deeply flawed assumption. All the trade-in/resale price tells you is that there isn't a ready supply. There's more than one reason that can exist for that, as I mentioned a while back; a disproportionate number of people who aren't part of the buy at release/trade-in at leisure gamer "lifestyle" is a painfully obvious alternative explanation.

Why doesn't this supposed phenomenon afflict all Wii games?

Still Not George

It does. Hence the second hand market being "comparable" rather than "utterly fucking huge", given the relative install base. I realise you were too busy trying to frame the discussion to your liking earlier to catch that bit so I figured I'd repeat it.

jutl

Quote from: Still Not George on March 12, 2010, 07:36:03 PM
It does. Hence the second hand market being "comparable" rather than "utterly fucking huge", given the relative install base. I realise you were too busy trying to frame the discussion to your liking earlier to catch that bit so I figured I'd repeat it.

No, I just thought that the discussion made no sense in the context of game shops (they're not going to have three times the Wii shelf-space just because there are three times as many owners). In the more general online second-hand space though, it should balance out, as there are both more resellers and more consumers.

Still Not George

Um, no. It doesn't work like that. More installed consoles = more games to trade and more purchasers = more shelf space, since they make the shop more money via greater turnover. Did you ever notice the relative space given to PS2 games vs XBox and Dreamcast games in the second hand bins last gen?

jutl

Quote from: Still Not George on March 12, 2010, 08:03:20 PM
Um, no. It doesn't work like that. More installed consoles = more games to trade and more purchasers = more shelf space, since they make the shop more money via greater turnover. Did you ever notice the relative space given to PS2 games vs XBox and Dreamcast games in the second hand bins last gen?

So by that logic the first sale display for Wii games should be three times as big as the PS3 and 360 displays... Funny how that's simply not the case, isn't it?

chand

Quote from: jutl on March 12, 2010, 08:05:38 PM
So by that logic the first sale display for Wii games should be three times as big as the PS3 and 360 displays... Funny how that's simply not the case, isn't it?

Isn't that his point? That Wii owners trade their games less frequently than you'd expect? Because they're largely a very different type of people to PS3/360 owners?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

SHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT THE FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUP

falafel

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh if you're quiet they will get down to one word responses and then eventually there will be nothing but an echo

jutl

Yes, this is all horrendously off topic. Sorry.

falafel

Y'know what though, I reckon this has a fair few things over both the 360 and the Wii (but then I would.)

You've got a far more ergonomically designed controller by the looks of it. You don't need the wire to get to the nunchuck. By and large the controls look pretty much parallel to the old DualShock design and I can imagine companies incorporating this retrospectively quite (quite) easily. You've got the PSEye which can still operate, on a basic level, like Natal, and I think ultimately this system has far more potential uses than either of the other propositions. Whether you believe in motion control or not is beside the point. This thing seems to provide a decent intermediary focus between controller-based and motion-based game control.

I will get one.

The end.

Slaaaaabs

Quote from: falafel on March 12, 2010, 09:39:12 PM
You don't need the wire to get to the nunchuck.

This was a poor design choice in my opinion. It adds another rechargeable battery into the mix plus it takes up another Bluetooth 'slot' (meaning you can't do four players if the game requires the sub-dildo)

I'm pretty sure Natal will be shit for games as well, but I can see it being excellent for other uses.

falafel

hypothetical but WHAT IF the second controller is slave to the first rather than a distinct object..?

Also - four people crowded round a telly being all gesture-ish? Sounds like a distinctly unfun scenario. I can't help but think that anything two-handish should be limited in players anyway. I can't think of a wii game that uses the nunchuk in a 4 player config... correct me if I'm wrong.

What can you see Natal being particularly good for? I don't get it.

Slaaaaabs

Quote from: falafel on March 12, 2010, 10:04:16 PM
hypothetical but WHAT IF the second controller is slave to the first rather than a distinct object..?

What can you see Natal being particularly good for? I don't get it.

http://gizmodo.com/5491464/playstation-move-gimps-4+player-support

The potential exists for Natal to be used in a PC environment with the combination of upper body gestures, facial recognition/tracking, voice control and willy augmentation.

falafel

OK,  so only 2 full motion controllers at a time - that still seems fair. Can't really imagine what you'd use 4 sets of 2 controllers for. Maybe that's the point though, it's not for me to imagine.

Willy augmentation is only useful for me if it has a way of grabbing my actual cock. Besides, if they ever did bring motion porn to Xbox Live it would probably revolve around some idiot Xena bondage bits and feature no cock whatsoever, or be some kind of horrid multiplayer where you run about trying to shag things and score shag points (CUMSHOT!) whilst teenagers scream FAGGOT at you down their poxy headsets

Nik Drou

Interesting article on the recent expo and the various motion controllers here:

http://uk.wii.ign.com/articles/107/1077008p1.html

QuoteThe same studio rep calls Natal a big, buggy mess. "It's sh*t," he adds, saying that it just doesn't work as promised. That it's slow and that the camera is imprecise, which he notes, is causing some major development woes.

If Natal was any good, they'd have showed some proper game footage by now, not just test wanking.

Still Not George

They only just held the dev conference on it at the end of February, TBC. Apparently they've been frantically working out the bugs in the voice recog.

(I got an invite but I couldn't justify the cost, given we're not likely to be using it any time soon.)