Author Topic: Goodfellas vs Casino  (Read 19008 times)

Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2010, 06:08:24 PM »
Is 'Goodfellas' well regarded by the mob? I don't think Sopranos ever directly mentioned what anyone thought of it but I know the show made clear that rats who made movie scripts were 'scumbags'.

biggytitbo

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Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2010, 06:20:07 PM »
Is 'Goodfellas' well regarded by the mob?
I'm not sure. Shall we go ask them?

rudi

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Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2010, 07:00:32 PM »
Is 'Goodfellas' well regarded by the mob? I don't think Sopranos ever directly mentioned what anyone thought of it but I know the show made clear that rats who made movie scripts were 'scumbags'.

It's watched all the time, as is The Godfather, both in the US and across Europe, to the effect that life has begun to imitate art (well, it has for the past 25 years or so). Read "Gomorrah" and "Cosa Nostra" for further details.

thecuriousorange

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Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2010, 07:20:48 PM »
I think Casino would be a far better film if Goodfellas had never existed. It's impossible not to compare the two and Goodfellas is just better. If you're yet to watch either, watch Casino forst as you'll probably enjoy it more that way.

Saucer51

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Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2010, 07:39:26 PM »
Cape Fear is also a masterpiece.

I love Robert De Niro but his version of Cape Fear was rubbish! The original, with Robert Mitchum as Max Cady is far superior. Scary, atmospheric and strangely more explicit, despite the tighter censors around in 1960. Perhaps because it's in black and white, made in a more innocent age, that makes the subject matter more shocking.

Casino took a while to grow on me. I saw it with my boyfriend a few years back and the early scene with Nicky Santoro "penning" the man in the bar just seemed graphic and and boringly reminiscent of Tommy D. Then I watched it again about a year ago and it is definately a film that needs to be seen a few times in order to catch everything, much like Goodfellas. These two movies, along with Godfather and Scarface, are the 4 Epics, as far as I'm concerned.

Best scene in Goodfellas: Whilst Billy Bats is half-dead in the boot of the car, the guys enjoy a midnight feast at Tommy's house. When his mother shows them a picture of a white-haired man, Jimmy (De Niro) says: "Looks like someone we know."
Very black humour.

Best scene in Casino: The cheating yokels who have no idea they are skimming a mafia-run casino and are about to be taken out the back for some justice. Ouch.

biggytitbo

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Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2010, 07:45:50 PM »
Quote
Do you want the hammer and the money or do you want to walk out of here?

Brilliant scene. They still nail him in the alleyway on the way out though don't they?

Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2010, 07:46:46 PM »
Didn't 'Goodfellas' actually not get great reviews when it first came out? I'm sure I read that critics found it cold and uninvolving and it took a while to be recognised as a masterpiece. 'Casino' seems to be slowly getting similar recognition. It's slower obviously because of 'Goodfellas'.

I like how in 'Casino' Rothstein gives the most unromantic proposal to Sharon Stone's character when she tells him she doesn't love him:

"That can grow. As long as there's a mutual respect. What is love anyway? It's a mutual respect. If we can set up some kind of foundation based on that mutual respect I feel that you could care enough about me that I could live with that."

DeNiro also does some of those great repeating himself scenes:

"Can I trust you? Can I trust you? Look at me, can I trust you? Answer me, can I trust you?" Casino

"What did I tell you? Huh? What did I tell you? Don't buy anything! Don't buy anything! What is the matter with you? What the fuck is the matter with you?" Goodfellas

biggytitbo

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Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #67 on: March 19, 2010, 07:48:44 PM »
Another great (albeit awful) bit that occurs to me in Casino is the hideous, awkward sex scene between Pesci and Sharon Stone, followed by her body been full of bruises, implying  he beats her and she likes it.

Saucer51

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Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #68 on: March 19, 2010, 07:59:43 PM »
Brilliant scene. They still nail him in the alleyway on the way out though don't they?

When Sam says "dump 'em outside if anyone asks we'll tell 'em they got hit by a car"

I'm assuming that Sam was instructing his security people to kill them anyway. But although Rothstein was uptight, he never struck me as being the kind of man party to murder.

biggytitbo

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Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #69 on: March 19, 2010, 08:02:27 PM »
When Sam says "dump 'em outside if anyone asks we'll tell 'em they got hit by a car"

I'm assuming that Sam was instructing his security people to kill them anyway. But although Rothstein was uptight, he never struck me as being the kind of man party to murder.
That's true. That might actually be a misfire on the films part. I don't see Rothstein as that kind of man at all. I see the awful cunts working around him as capable of that, but not him.

Saucer51

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Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #70 on: March 19, 2010, 08:32:23 PM »

I like how in 'Casino' Rothstein gives the most unromantic proposal to Sharon Stone's character when she tells him she doesn't love him:

"That can grow. As long as there's a mutual respect. What is love anyway? It's a mutual respect. If we can set up some kind of foundation based on that mutual respect I feel that you could care enough about me that I could live with that."

His utterly pedestrian delivery and lack of emotion is fairly consistent throughout Casino and it's almost comical. Pesci's narration early on admits that he doesn't think Sam had ever had fun out of gambling, or by extension, anything.
There's the banal marriage proposal. No wonder Ginger turned to substances. She didn't love him and it was killing her spirit.
Then there's the outrageous behaviour of the cowboy who disrespects the casino and Rothstein. When Pesci apologises on behalf of the cowboy, all Rothstein can say is "If he does it again he won't be allowed back in." A very flaccid threat.
And Lester Dimes. After tracking him down with Ginger and Amy, Rothstein numbly accepts that Dimes is taking his number and will call him back. Dimes calling him a schmuck is so apt.

That's another thing. The fact that Pesci narrates retrospectively in the film, makes his execution that more unexpected.

Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #71 on: March 19, 2010, 08:48:49 PM »
Didn't 'Goodfellas' actually not get great reviews when it first came out? I'm sure I read that critics found it cold and uninvolving and it took a while to be recognised as a masterpiece.

I don't think so, it was nominated for best picture and both Siskel and Ebert called it the best film of the year for example. Quite often a legend will develop that a film was "underappreciated in its time" that quickly falls apart when you look at how it was actually received (Shawshank Redemption is possibly the best example of this).

Anyway, my startlingly intellectual contribution to this thread is that I prefer Casino as I find the Las Vegas setting and plot more interesting than Goodfellas' urban settings

Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2010, 08:51:34 PM »

That's another thing. The fact that Pesci narrates retrospectively in the film, makes his execution that more unexpected.

Plus the way he's interrupted when narrating at the end. I was shocked when I first watched it and Frank Vincent's character even got to narrate!

biggytitbo

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Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2010, 08:53:30 PM »
His utterly pedestrian delivery and lack of emotion is fairly consistent throughout Casino and it's almost comical. Pesci's narration early on admits that he doesn't think Sam had ever had fun out of gambling, or by extension, anything.
There's the banal marriage proposal. No wonder Ginger turned to substances. She didn't love him and it was killing her spirit.
Then there's the outrageous behaviour of the cowboy who disrespects the casino and Rothstein. When Pesci apologises on behalf of the cowboy, all Rothstein can say is "If he does it again he won't be allowed back in." A very flaccid threat.
And Lester Dimes. After tracking him down with Ginger and Amy, Rothstein numbly accepts that Dimes is taking his number and will call him back. Dimes calling him a schmuck is so apt.

That's another thing. The fact that Pesci narrates retrospectively in the film, makes his execution that more unexpected.
I think its made pretty explicit that Rothstein has OCD in the film. He doesn't get any pleasure out of anything, he has anhedonia, but he is compelled to take some kind of pleasureless satisfaction from his obsessive attention to every detail.

Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2010, 09:13:38 PM »
Someone posted this on here before:

Casino TV version

"You better get your own fighting army, pal!"

The original is hilarious as it is:

Casino

biggytitbo

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Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #75 on: March 19, 2010, 09:17:52 PM »
That desert scene is just absolutely incredible allround. One of my favourite scenes in any film ever.

Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #76 on: March 19, 2010, 10:17:54 PM »
Goodfellas did manage to win one Oscar, for Joe Pesci's performance. Worth watching this to see his excellent acceptance speech...

Joe Pesci winning Best Supporting Actor for "Good Fellas"

There's not a lot of pics of the real life people the two films are based on, but here's a few for anyone interested:

Goodfellas

Henry Hill



with Karen



Jimmy (Conway) Burke



Tommy Desimone



Paul Vario



Martin Krugman (Morrie)



Stacks Edwards



Frankie "The Wop"



Casino

Frank Rosenthal (Ace)



Tony Spilotro (Nicky)



Geraldine (Ginger)



Joseph Aiuppa (Remo)



Michael Spilotro (Dominic)



Frankie



There's also wikis on most of them

biggytitbo

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Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2010, 10:29:43 PM »
I'm still finding it hard to understand why Henry Hill hasn't been targeted before now. He must be regarded as the absolute lowest of the low for grassing surely?

Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #78 on: March 19, 2010, 10:35:57 PM »
He gets a lot of email threats (there's a section on his website where he posts them), but I think they're probably all just from people who have seen the film. I'm surprised he hasn't been killed, but then again the mob don't have the kind of power in the US that they had 30+ years ago, and tend to keep a lower profile. Also the idea of "mafia honour" isn't so much of a priority with the new generation, it's just about making money. Killing Hill wouldn't really help them in any way other than settling an old score.

biggytitbo

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Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #79 on: March 19, 2010, 11:12:42 PM »
That's obviously the case el, or he wouldn't feel so free to be quite so brazen about his life.

thecuriousorange

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Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #80 on: March 20, 2010, 12:11:58 AM »
Quote
Goodfellas did manage to win one Oscar, for Joe Pesci's performance. Worth watching this to see his excellent acceptance speech...

Joe Pesci winning Best Supporting Actor for "Good Fellas"

That clip is pretty funny.

Funny how? etc.



Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #81 on: March 20, 2010, 08:12:41 AM »
Poor Joe. He looks genuinely overwhelmed.

biggytitbo

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Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #82 on: March 20, 2010, 10:41:07 AM »
I like the fact he's wearing his film wig to the ceremony.

Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #83 on: March 20, 2010, 11:06:37 AM »
I always thought Goodfellas was the better film but Casino was more watchable, if that makes sense. The increased presence of De Niro helps. Casino's also funnier- Pesci's character is a psychotic laugh-riot. "You confused? Maybe if I stick ya fuckin' face through this window over here, you'll get unconfused!" Great performance.

rudi

  • I'm not interested
Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #84 on: March 20, 2010, 01:10:39 PM »
I'm still finding it hard to understand why Henry Hill hasn't been targeted before now. He must be regarded as the absolute lowest of the low for grassing surely?

It's just not worth it. It's not worth the effort (he's nothing left to spill, he's doing a good job of looking tragic: hardly a great advert for other potential grasses) and it's not worth the trouble (he's too famous, the FBI would feel obliged to take someone down for it).

The mafia (such as it now is) is too busy making money; the old order that placed honour above all else is history; it's alllll about making money now and you'll make far less by drawing attention to yourselves.

biggytitbo

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Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #85 on: March 20, 2010, 01:13:52 PM »
It's just not worth it. It's not worth the effort (he's nothing left to spill, he's doing a good job of looking tragic: hardly a great advert for other potential grasses) and it's not worth the trouble (he's too famous, the FBI would feel obliged to take someone down for it).

The mafia (such as it now is) is too busy making money; the old order that placed honour above all else is history; it's alllll about making money now and you'll make far less by drawing attention to yourselves.
Pussies.

Yeah you hear that the mafia? I called you pussies.*

*not really, you're ace. Please don't kill me.

Shameless Custard

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Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #86 on: March 20, 2010, 01:28:56 PM »
Just about to read the rest of the thread, but for those of y'all who found Sharon Stone's role in this a bit annoying and/or not very entertaining (I'm not one of these bounders, I should add), then there's a fan-edit of the film out there, which basically removes all her bits completely. So it becomes all about De Niro and Pesci's characters. It actually works surprisingly well.

Its called Casino - Destoned, anyway.

Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #87 on: March 20, 2010, 02:25:09 PM »
I suspect it was cut by one of the crewmen who pissed in her drink on the set of King Solomon's Mines

Glebe

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Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #88 on: March 21, 2010, 12:28:01 AM »
Apparrently just about everyone who had it in for Hill has kicked the bucket by now. According to Hill himself, he has more to fear from Karen's family, who are supposedly always trying to claim money from him. On the Goodfellas 'The Crook And The Cop' commentary which he does with attorney Ed McDonald (who cameos as himself in the film), Hill actually gets audibly upset at the scene where Morrie is killed.

Re: Goodfellas vs Casino
« Reply #89 on: March 21, 2010, 12:35:00 PM »
The scene where Morrie is killed is a fantastic example of how great both these films deal with 'whackings'- they keep the scene going, to an uncomfortable length, so as to get a very real reaction from the gangsters which goes beyond slick and efficient and propely conveys the odd sensations that presumambly are generated by murder, even for those people experienced in the field.  There's a great little moment after that Morrie killing where the driver, a bit bumbling and shocked, goes to open the door as if to leave the car, and gets called a 'dizzy motherfucker'.

Goodfellas - Morrie gets whacked