Apple Ipad (Heavy Flow)

[MojoJojo]

Like I said, flash is going to be around for a while yet but it's use is going to shrink to the core of the things that can't be done readily natively within the browser. It's a process of evolution and as HTML5 develops all those things you mention will be sucked up too. I'm with Jobs that this is the way to go rather than relying on 3rd party software for core browser functionality.

Well, you've sort of identified there a technical reason why flash exists - browsers are never completely compatible with each other. By doing everything in Flash, you support every browser which supports Flash. Browsers still have compatability issues with fairly basic stuff, the problems are only likely to increase as more complex technologies are introduced. For this reason I suspect Flash will be around for long enough for Adobe to add more features, and then browsers will be stuck in catch up forever.
Other issue is mobile devices - it's becomining increasingly important to support these. Adobe already has a fairly widely deployed mini version and I believe they have full Flash on some phones ready, don't they?

There was some thing on the Reg with Jobs saying the reason Flash was barred is because Apple really don't want cross platform software on their devices. They want to force developers to spend extra time on the iPhone port, basically.

[biggytitbo]

Well, you've sort of identified there a technical reason why flash exists - browsers are never completely compatible with each other. By doing everything in Flash, you support every browser which supports Flash. Browsers still have compatability issues with fairly basic stuff, the problems are only likely to increase as more complex technologies are introduced. For this reason I suspect Flash will be around for long enough for Adobe to add more features, and then browsers will be stuck in catch up forever.
Other issue is mobile devices - it's becomining increasingly important to support these. Adobe already has a fairly widely deployed mini version and I believe they have full Flash on some phones ready, don't they?

There was some thing on the Reg with Jobs saying the reason Flash was barred is because Apple really don't want cross platform software on their devices. They want to force developers to spend extra time on the iPhone port, basically.

That's the whole point, browsers are beginning to converge on a common set of standards. It's taken a while but we're getting there. With the release of IE9 even microsoft have stopped pissing about and are playing ball, so its the beginning of the end for flash I think. IE8 jumped to be the worlds most used browser within a year or so, so you're looking at a few years before a large majority of users don't need flash for 95% of web functionality.

[glitch]

That's the whole point, browsers are beginning to converge on a common set of standards. It's taken a while but we're getting there.

And it will take even longer (if ever) for HTML5/CSS3/JS2 to be flawlessy compatible across browsers and platforms. How do I know this? Well, ignoring the past 10 years or so of web dev, there's already a split between Ogg Theora and  H.264 support, mainly due to Apple and Microsoft having a vested interest in the latter, making all Jobs' comments about an open web even more risible.

With the release of IE9 even microsoft have stopped pissing about and are playing ball, so its the beginning of the end for flash I think.

Sure, if you continue to ignore this point:

Browsers still have compatability issues with fairly basic stuff, the problems are only likely to increase as more complex technologies are introduced. For this reason I suspect Flash will be around for long enough for Adobe to add more features, and then browsers will be stuck in catch up forever.

Anyway:

Other issue is mobile devices - it's becomining increasingly important to support these. Adobe already has a fairly widely deployed mini version and I believe they have full Flash on some phones ready, don't they?

Yeah, the one that's got ok-ish penetration is FlashLite and in all honesty from a dev point of view it's pretty poor. They're working on a better full version, there's already preview videos of 10.02 running on Android. It's what I'm going to be looking at developing for in the future.

[biggytitbo]

And it will take even longer (if ever) for HTML5/CSS3/JS2 to be flawlessy compatible across browsers and platforms. How do I know this? Well, ignoring the past 10 years or so of web dev, there's already a split between Ogg Theora and  H.264 support, mainly due to Apple and Microsoft having a vested interest in the latter, making all Jobs' comments about an open web even more risible.

Thats fine, html5 handles the fork between the 2 natively without much fuss.

Browsers still have compatability issues with fairly basic stuff, the problems are only likely to increase as more complex technologies are introduced. For this reason I suspect Flash will be around for long enough for Adobe to add more features, and then browsers will be stuck in catch up forever.

Old browsers still have compatibility issues with fairly basic stuff. But you can be pretty sure if you're using any recent browser and building stuff correctly it will work across the board with minimum effort. It's mainly just IE6 and IE7 that produce problems nowadays, but even then with a bit of work most stuff is still achievable, especially if you use a javascript library.

[glitch]

Thats fine, html5 handles the fork between the 2 natively without much fuss.

So you will have to offer an Ogg Theora version for Mozilla browsers and H.264 for Safari/IE. That's some great support there.

But you can be pretty sure if you're using any recent browser and building stuff correctly it will work across the board with minimum effort.

Explain why there are 3 methods to achieve similar results:

-moz-border-radius
-webkit-border-radius
border-radius

And this has been known about since 2002.

I'm beginning to realise how SNG feels about things...

[biggytitbo]

So you will have to offer an Ogg Theora version for Mozilla browsers and H.264 for Safari/IE. That's some great support there.

That's a trivial thing though, if you have a video encoding infrastructure, we don't encode videos by hand.

Explain why there are 3 methods to achieve similar results:

-moz-border-radius
-webkit-border-radius
border-radius

That's a bit annoying, true. It's because the spec wasn't finalized and the browser vendors wanted to add it right away. It's a valid criticism that the W3C could get a move on on some things.

[glitch]

That's a trivial thing though, if you have a video encoding infrastructure, we don't encode videos by hand.

The point I'm making though is that lines are already being drawn in the sound over who will support which aspects of HTML5 - doesn't exactly bode well for the 100% cross-browser compatibility you seem to be saying will happen and which will Definitely Kill Off Flash.

That's a bit annoying, true. It's because the spec wasn't finalized and the browser vendors wanted to add it right away. It's a valid criticism that the W3C could get a move on on some things.

Like finalise the HTML5 spec sometime before 2012 so we can hope for decent support for it by 2022?

[biggytitbo]

The point I'm making though is that lines are already being drawn in the sound over who will support which aspects of HTML5 - doesn't exactly bode well for the 100% cross-browser compatibility you seem to be saying will happen and which will Definitely Kill Off Flash.

Like finalise the HTML5 spec sometime before 2012 so we can hope for decent support for it by 2022?

It's a bit weird what they're doing, because all the core features of html5 are done. But for some reason they like to take their time. It won't hold back browser development though, thankfully. The slight differences in execution don't matter of you use proper libraries - for instance there are already very robust scripts that embed video so it works on every device going, from ie6 to ipad.

[chumfatty]

Did you guys order the 3G one or the standard wi-fi model? Once it starts getting above 500 quid for one I think it starts getting too expensive for me but 3G would be handy. Also 16GB for the cheapo model isn't really much once you start putting a few movies on there as well as everything else. Its so tempting to get one but I'm so against getting first generation Apple stuff. By Xmas time they will have a built in camera plus 4G plus much more memory plus better multitasking.

I have bought Wifi only 32gb one as £500 was my limit, I don't intend to use it outside the home other than to watch movies/play games whilst travelling and also I have the iPhone for any immediate internet needs. Still debating over whether or not to cancel the order, but damn it I work bloody hard and I deserve nice things, you don't understand my needs anymore, we're through!

[jutl]

I deserve nice things

...like actual control over the £500 device you're buying?

[wasp_f15ting]

After being tempted by it for so long, I borrowed a US import version for one full day and have decided to wait for a bit before buying it. I might even wait for the next itteration of it. I have decided instead to save the money for a new PC this autumn.

[mobias]

I didn't realise Steve Jobs ever actually replies to be people sending him drunken hate mail. Quite amusing.

http://gawker.com/5539717/

[jutl]

Barry Church, one of the first out of the store with his iPad, said: "I've never used one but I had to have one."

from BBC News - Apple iPad tablet gathers crowds for UK launch

[The Widow of Brid]

Hysteria aside, has anyone else got one yet?

Mine arrived yesterday and I have to say I'm really pleasantly surprised by it. The price is shameful, of course, but the actual device has exceeded my expectations. Certainly worth owning, though I'd advise waiting for the price to come down or buying the cheapest model and syncing it regularly.

edited to add

Earlier in the thread I wrote this

Minimum expectations - shiny toy that'll make my life slightly easier but that I could easily live without.
Maximum expectations - something that for day to day use will replace my comics library, sketchpad and notebooks in the way the iphone + Stanza ebook ap and Kindle ap have replaced my paper books.

And while I obviously won't know for sure for a while it does seem to be meeting maximum expectations.

[glitch]

We should be jailbreaking the office one at some point today, if my boss has his way.

Also lol

Adobe's Flash video software has become a flashpoint in negotiations between Apple CEO Steve Jobs and Big Media.



On a day when Apple execs probably cheered the fact the company had surpassed Microsoft as the world's most valuable tech company, Jobs was grappling with resistance from Tinseltown over Apple's ongoing fight with Adobe.



Sources said several large media companies, including Time Warner and NBC Universal, told Apple they won't retool their extensive video libraries to accommodate the iPad, arguing that such a reformatting would be expensive and not worth it because Flash dominates the Web.



Though the iPad has been a huge hit, media companies are feeling emboldened in their rebuffing of Apple by the launch of rival touch-screen tablet devices, such as the ones coming from Dell Computer and Hewlett-Packard, sources said.



In addition, one media executive pointed out that Apple's ability to dictate terms to the media giants will be weakened further by Google TV, a software product that enables viewers to watch online video on their big-screen TVs.

[MALCOLM]

"oh no, I wouldn't look cool walking down the street with the Archos"

Guys, there are some bigger obstacles you need to address before you can walk down the street looking "cool"

It's comforting to see Apple fan boys/girls pissing money up the wall on this twatpanel in their continuing quest for coolness at the temple of Jobs

[Lee Van Cleef]

My friend made a valid point in one his typical vitriolic outbursts on facebook:

x's law of the technology universe: 'You're a FUCKING IDIOT if you buy a 1st generation Apple product'

[wasp_f15ting]

What the fuck is wrong with people.. queuing up at night?!

Crikey..

Is it real that a time subscription will cost £30 a month?

The wired magazine is 700Mb so I wonder if its embedded with videos and stuff.

Like LVC has stated 1st Gen of anything apple is a bit risky. I can't justify it at all even with the discounts.

[The Widow of Brid]

(IM PISED SO SORRY TO INCOHERENCE)> The Wired magazine is quite lovely. I'm unlikely to buy t often, for the same reasn I don't buy the hard copy often. It's expensive, and I can get it - the cobtent - at home for free. HOWEVER they have put a lot of thought into it, and as an artifact it really does feel like a hglimpse of what magazines will be in ten years time. A different thing to websites. Similarly the lonely planet 100 dead cool things for fucking students or whatever it's called actually hurts my soul in content, but is a beautiful demo of what is coming in form.

This is just a lovely device. And I will freely admit to being surptrised that it is not an anticlimax. Yes, the people queuing are largely utter cock-ends, and anyone who thinks having a preference for one OS over another is cool in any way wants shooting, but the ipad really does fit so neatly into a computing niche. Obviously as more companies put out decent slightly locked down touch[ad tablets they'll fill it as well, but honestly, dpon't hate it because of the hype. It's a lovely thing.

This really was my 'mad money' purchase, and I did think I was going to regret it. But turns out it's fucking brilliant. I dunno, maybe I'm just enjoying it so much because I'm not obliged to fiddle with it under the bonnet. It's really nice having a computer that you get to just use as a tool for doing stuff, rather than feeling like you it ought to make it do ANYTHING if you were only willing to put the work in.

EDITED TO ADD

TALKING Of which. I'll be very interested to hera about your experiences with a jailbroken one, glitch. Though I've no intention of doing so to mine, for the reasons kind of mentionedededed above.

[MALCOLM]

But what do you do with it though, that's worth the sacrifices of not having one of those thin Apple laptops or, dare I say it, a Windows 7 netbook/laptop/tablet?

I'm no anti-Apple zealout, I love my iphone, but I'm struggling to see what the fuss is about this device, especially in the numerous ways it's crippled

My Windows 7 netbook is incredibly versatile and portable and was about 300 quid (Samsung n220)

[wasp_f15ting]

I suspect the major thing is not having the system "boot up" its always on for you to access the tinternet and just laze around reading stuff in the garden..

Did you get the 3G version or just the wifi?

Its so annoying they don't allow an add on. The 32GB 3g wifi version is £600 for a few quid more I could have a macbook! I just can't justify it to my brain...

[MALCOLM]

Sounds handy, but not enough of a carrot for me to buy it. Isn't there a version of ubuntu that does instant on?

My netbook goes from powered off to login prompt in; (hang on) 17 seconds using Windows 7 hibernation

What size and resolution is the screen?

[wasp_f15ting]

10" 1024 x 768 I think..

Trust apple to take us back to 4:3

[jutl]

10" 1024 x 768 I think..

Trust apple to take us back to 4:3

Indeed.

[MALCOLM]

Indeed.

Fucking hell, did you actually just take the time to post that?

[Jaffit]

This does look rather lovely.

Apple - iPad - The Elements

[The Widow of Brid]

But what do you do with it though, that's worth the sacrifices of not having one of those thin Apple laptops or, dare I say it, a Windows 7 netbook/laptop/tablet?

The only macbook that'd come anywhere near it in weight would be the air, which costs twice as much, is still somewhat bigger, doesn't have a DVD drive or a touchscreen and is needlessly overspecced for most people's needs to be solely used as a travel computer. To be honest, while I hadn't thought of it that way until you mentioned them I suspect the ipad is going to fill the niche the air tries for.

The iPad is light and small enough to live in my handbag when it's not in use, but big enough to comfortably read comics (and I feel comfortable predicting that this device is going to do MIRACLES for the comics industry. Albeit unfortunately while fucking small comics shops up the arse)  use the internet or watch television on. Workwise I can take handwritten or typed notes on it, or sketch, or fiddle with spreadsheets (which is pretty much all I want to do until I'm sitting in front of my desktop). Yesterday, while Mouse and I were waiting for friends down the pub, we spent a fun half an hour playing a board game that we like - Small World - on it.  None of that seems particularly mind-blowing written down but it's the first time I've had experience with a notebook device that seemed a significant improvement on an actual notebook!

Obviously the fact that I bought Apple, and 1st generation, comes down to personal preference. There's rational reasons that I generally prefer Apple products for home use, but there's irrational ones too, so defending my choice (rather than the product itself) seems a bit of a daft path to go down. 

I bought the 3G version, wasp_f15ting, though didn't bother buying a PayG sim until today.

So yeah. My stance is essentially that they're brilliant, but overpriced. Well worth waiting for lower prices and more variety in the market, but on the other hand I honestly don't regret my own purchase.

[hoverdonkey]

Good, honest precis Widow. Thanks for that.

[jutl]

Fucking hell, did you actually just take the time to post that?

Fucking hell, did you actually just take the time to post your lazy fucking question rather than look it up yourself?

[jutl]

So yeah. My stance is essentially that they're brilliant, but overpriced. Well worth waiting for lower prices and more variety in the market, but on the other hand I honestly don't regret my own purchase.

I think the 'overpriced' thing is particularly true when you consider how much ownership of the device Apple retains. The only other consumer device markets where the manufacturer essentially bans large swathes of uses - consoles and mobiles - at least have a model where a provider subsidises your purchase. Here you're paying a heavy markup to have less actual control. It's also fairly fucking cheeky that iPhone OS4, with its slight gestures towards multitasking, is not coming to the iPad until months after it comes to the iPhone and iPod. To me it just savours too much of 'fuck you' even for Apple.