Super Street Fighter IV

[The Boston Crab]

I've written about 5000 words on the vanilla SF4 - an ongoing piece - for the Top 1000 Games thread but the pump-up version is just about out. Anyone here, except samadriel, Spiteface and myself got a ROCK HARD DICK for this one? I'm going to buy a 360/PS3 specifically for it when I get back to the UK in a few days. I've probably invested more time/thought/practice/money in the original than any other game in my life. I think it's one of the greatest videogames of all time. Also, as a Ken, I have a hardwired sense of smug pride whenever I beat any higher-tier character with my bullshit pokey step-kick/kara throw game.

Amongst the new characters and modes, they've basically rejigged all the characters/tiers to compress them, meaning fewer whingeing fucks like me and closer/tighter fights whoever you're playing. I like the sound of that as I have MASSIVE BRASS BALLS in a tight fight.

Man, I am so fucking pumped. Only downer is no PC release announced yet. Whether they do or don't isn't important right now as I can't wait six months to get stuck in.

[The Boston Crab]

SRK.com won't load in this netbar and YouTu is blocked in China.

Fuckckckckckck.

[The Region Legion]

You know, I have a huge problem with this whole thing. Isn't this double dipping bullshit from the games industry why DLC was invented? It saves them money because they don't have to print up a whole new batch of DVDs, cases and inserts, and it saves us having to buy the SAME THING twice. Fuck Capcom for this, frankly, it doesn't fly like it did in 1994 when there was simply no other solution.

[Lee Van Cleef]

As someone who doesn't have SF4 I'll prob pick this up at some point. Been years since I played a SF game. Looks like good egg.

[Spiteface]

You know, I have a huge problem with this whole thing. Isn't this double dipping bullshit from the games industry why DLC was invented? It saves them money because they don't have to print up a whole new batch of DVDs, cases and inserts, and it saves us having to buy the SAME THING twice. Fuck Capcom for this, frankly, it doesn't fly like it did in 1994 when there was simply no other solution.

They've said before, the stuff they want to add is actually a bit too big to put out as DLC.  Besides, this version will be cheaper new than the "Vanilla" SF4 was.

[VegaLA]

I'm in for ssome of this!
Busy Summer ahead what with Red Dead Redemption and Dead Rising 2 on the cards.

[The Boston Crab]

The DLC argument has been done to death elsewhere but I feel it's worth wading back in for a moment with regards to this game.

SSF4 is basically aimed at die-hard SF players and those few people who somehow never picked up the first one. If you played Vanilla SF4 and enjoyed it for a bit with a couple of mates and left it to gather dust, there's no reason for you to buy the new one. There's barely even any marketing push to convince you otherwise. Personally, I feel the 40 dollars I paid for the first one have given me better value for money than any game I've bought in my life, even more than The Orange Box. The 'depth' to the game is incredible, in the sense that I could probably play the original version every day for another couple of years before I reached a plateau of understanding and execution. Increasing the roster by 60%, rebalancing the entire play dynamic based on endless research and fanbase interaction/feedback, adding new moves (as well as making significant changes to existing moves) as well as restructured netcode/online modes and all the cosmetic improvements will add up to another 20 quid's play, easy.

If you're not interested in it, you can quite happily stick with the version you already paid for and continue to have the odd bash with your mates. However, feel free to compare the longevity of a title with this much undiscovered depth, compared to even your epic Mass Effects/Fallouts where you, as a player, don't actually improve as such nor learn anything new about the game make-up to challenge yourself further. Likewise, the SF community, although as full of wankers as anywhere else, seems to be on a constant supportive quest to get everybody 'levelled up' through shared strategy/techniques/mind games/competition.

Needless to say, I'm stoked for it.

[madhair60]

Quick question: I don't own SFIV (or a 360/PS3 for that matter).  When I eventually get one, if I buy the "Super" re-release, will I be losing out on any content by not owning the original game?

[The Boston Crab]

I don't think there are any 'bonus treats' for those who own the original game. The only thing 'missing' will be the online Championship Mode which I like (mini-tournies as opposed to standalone fights) but I gather that a) the new online modes are much improved anyway and b) they're going to offer additional online/tournament modes as free DLC in the next few months.

Another thing which I forgot to mention - which sounds brilliant - is the ability to save/upload/review/give commentary on/watch fights online, which is just a great tool for everyone trying to improve at the game, saves messing about with screengrabs/YouTube and is obviously much more interactive.

[madhair60]

Awesome.  This is one of the few games that makes me want a current-gen system.  Unless it hits PC, it which case never mind.

[Spiteface]

I don't think there are any 'bonus treats' for those who own the original game.

The only bonus thing I've noticed are two extra "colours" for costumes if you have an SFIV game save on your memory card/Hard Drive.  Had I known that was all it was, I would have traded in SFIV to get a few quid off.

It's still great though.

[VegaLA]

I traded in SFIV not long after Super was announced and got hold of this yesterday.
Love how fluid this game is, and played as Seth for the first time which was fun but really want to get to grips with the story mode.

Are we organising any VW tournaments? I'm crap but it would be good for a laugh.

[The Boston Crab]

I so badly need to get this 360 repaired and get this game but I'm broke after a month's jolly holidays. Can't send it back to MS, it's a chipped Chinese one. When I do, though, I'll be well up for some tournaments. Not caught samdriel online for some PC SF4 in a little while - I was just starting to pull a little closer too, hehe!

[Spiteface]

Are we organising any VW tournaments? I'm crap but it would be good for a laugh.

Same here.  I might actually pony up for an Xbox live sub for a bit if enough people are on board to get such a thing off the ground.

Having played a bit more today, yet to give the "new" characters much of a go (briefly used Juri but soon went back to my Ryu comfort zone), but loving Ryu & Akuma's new ultras.  I could never figure out why Ryu never really had a super Shoryuken of any sort until now, given him scarring Sagat with one is like a major plot point (and the only canon appearance of "Evil Ryu").

[Consignia]

Having played a bit more today, yet to give the "new" characters much of a go (briefly used Juri but soon went back to my Ryu comfort zone)

I've given both Juri and Hakan a whirl. Hakan is great fun, although his character design is seriously weird and playing as him doesn't make it less so. Juri is alright, but nothing special so far. Of all the added characters, my favourite has got to be Cody, perhaps because he was my main in Alpha 3. I might take it online at somepoint, but I'm really not very good at it.

[The Boston Crab]

I guess they don't want him to step too much on Ken's toes, make sure they're distinct enough. That said, his SRK is actually better than Ken's in Vanilla! Really looking forward to trying out tweaked Ken, I heard they've just spiced him up a tiny bit to make his rushdown game more tempting.

I had a good look at Ibuki on YT, she looks like a lot of fun too, shitloads of Target Combos, nice flow to her without doing big damage. Almost reminds me of playing Killer Instinct way back when! I reckon I'll have her as my alternate. Been messing around a bit with Chun on Vanilla but I still don't have the charge-character habit. I don't quite get how you have a footsies game if you're constantly needing to hold down/back. I know samadriel mains Dictator. Are the rest of us shotos? I tried a bit of Gen actually, managed his hard trials which were loads of fun. I just think I'm not coordinated enough to play him seriously, though :)

[Lee Van Cleef]

I had a good look at Ibuki on YT, she looks like a lot of fun too, shitloads of Target Combos, nice flow to her without doing big damage. Almost reminds me of playing Killer Instinct way back when! I reckon I'll have her as my alternate. Been messing around a bit with Chun on Vanilla but I still don't have the charge-character habit. I don't quite get how you have a footsies game if you're constantly needing to hold down/back. I know samadriel mains Dictator. Are the rest of us shotos? I tried a bit of Gen actually, managed his hard trials which were loads of fun. I just think I'm not coordinated enough to play him seriously, though :)

Does this actually make sense in some weird way?

[The Region Legion]

Does this actually make sense in some weird way?

I understood the majority, although was lost when he started banging on about Dictators, shotos and footsies.

I'm a Ryu-Ken-Akuma man, with Chun-Li and Ibuki in SF3 only.  All the other characters can just fuck off. Charge characters just make no sense to me, and I don't have the passion to sit in challenge mode for a month learning all of them. More power to those that do, though it does make the game unplayable in online mode for everybody else.

[The Boston Crab]

Charge characters...make the game unplayable in online mode for everybody else.

I failed to understand this one! Have I misread you? I know what you mean about not getting the charge characters, it's just a whole different way of thinking when you play the game. I should try, just to understand their movesets a bit better, I tend to do exceptionally badly against the likes of Blanka, again and again. Would be useful to play from their perspective to figure out weak spots.

Err, also:

Shotos = Ryu, Ken, Akuma-type characters, projectiles, dragon punch-type moves, similar normals. We're shoto bros. High five.

Footsies = understanding the range and speed of your moves in relation to your opponent's, usually in order to bait and punish. A simple example would be throwing out Ken's f+MK step kick at maximum range to show you 'own' that space then playing with that fine line by shifting back and forth, trying to poke out an opening, sometimes deliberately whiffing your attack to tempt them, knowing your move has enough recovery speed for you to block their follow-up and punish them. You already do 'footsies', you just didn't know there was a wanker's name for it.

Dictator = M. Bison; c.f. Boxer = Balrog, Claw = Vega.

Target Combos, to make that clear, are similar to 2-in-1 combos (such as crouching MK > fireball, or any number of normal > special combos that shoto characters can do very easily) but they have slightly different properties in that they're cancelling a normal into another normal. A good example of this is Ken's standing MP > standing HP which does a super fast one-two punisher which you can then cancel into a special for extra damage. I also believe that with the scaling on combos, where each subsequent hit reduces the damage of the next, target combos are treated as one hit - bonus dmg. I think.

[The Region Legion]

I failed to understand this one! Have I misread you?

I actually had started to refer to sitting in challenge mode and becoming so shit hot that anyone who doesn't do exactly the same with their chosen character gets the floor wiped, thus making online play extremely frustrating. Also, it seems to me that the relative difficulty of pulling off moves increases the amount of damage done. So for example, a character that needs to do a charge pretty much every move they make dishes out a lot more punishment per move than your shotos, so a good charge player will likely take down a casual shoto with ease.

Don't get me started on fucking Sagat players online, you may as well quit as soon as the match begins. TIGER SHOT TIGER SHOT TIGER SHOT TIGER SHOT TIGER SHOT TIGER SHOT TIGER SHOT. It's like being back in 1994 playing SF2, though at least back then I knew it was a computer being cheap and not a human being.

[The Boston Crab]

Just one or two things to clear up. I think that charge characters generally do more damage across the board (Balrog, Honda, Bison) but that's not due to charge move properties, c.f. Vega & Chun. Likewise, I'd say a good shoto would do a casual charge player any day. Neither is intrinsically better, they just suit different playstyles. You do have to think differently when facing them though, since it's almost unavoidable for them to 'turtle' (at times) as they always need to hold d/b to have a special on demand. This kind of puts the onus on you to unlock their defence and if you attack blindly, they almost all have a fast, long-range move to punish you. That said, with a bit of patience and with the 'footsies' I mentioned before, there are a lot of things you can do to tempt them into leaving a gap. For a start, even Ken has a decent enough fireball zoning game to force them to play, provided you're careful with it. Besides, there are many opportunities to build charge when attacking, so only the worst beginners crouch in the corner waiting. Also, on that note, if you're playing online, search by Grade to find players of similar level, though I accept that the search function is erratic as shit. I remember getting seriously tired of getting thrashed by people with thousands more BP than me, before I started playing just within my grade in Championship Mode. CM is better, anyway, because a) you get fewer people ragequitting on you to save a few points and b) people seem generally helpful and supportive if you ask questions.

I know you're not asking for Sagat advice but I'm going to throw some out and people can take whichever bits they like.

First of all, Sagat is a bad match-up, for almost every character. His Tiger Shot starts up and recovers so fast he can just sit there spamming it all day. Even when you do get in, his special moves have a lot of priority and range. He's got big health and does big damage. I've lost count of the number of times I've patiently worked my way in, chipped his health down before we traded aerial hits and he went straight into a free Ultra before I even hit the deck. It's annoying. The hundredth time, it's really really fucking annoying. That's the way you gotta play him though, as Ryu/Ken. Be patient, absorb one or two Tiger Shots with your Focus, neutral jump a couple, block a couple - always always be blocking - and don't jump in too close or you'll eat a standing roundhouse into EX uppercut (at least) or a Tiger Knee to the other end of the screen to reset the whole shebang.

I can't say this is good advice but I sometimes just throw in a random air hurricane kick to send me right across the screen and in his face. I usually take a hit for my troubles but at least I'm in for my jab/sweep/throw mixups. Another useful thing when up close against Sagat is the cross-up. This is useful full-stop but especially so against him as he's so big and therefore has large hit boxes. Basically, the cross-up is an ambiguous jump-in attack where your aim is to hit your opponent late on the top/back of the head so they're not sure which side to block. We've all been on the receiving end of it by design or by chance, holding left to block this jumping kick and oh shit it's crossed up and I'm eating a big combo.

Once I'm in, as Ken, I'll give him a couple of jabs (even blocked, they build meter ) and crouching MK and as I'm pushed back, jump straight over him with MK, hopefully into EX DP to knock down and reset the mixup games. If he blocks the crossup, throw/jab/neutral jump/cross him back up, you've got a shitload of options. Now, obviously, it's not that simple and if he's good, he'll read it, block and fuck you up but it's the ambiguity which can work for you. He might misread it, block for crossup and bang, in the face. Whatever happens, you're keeping him guessing until the last moment while you're already considering your attacking options. Very useful against Sagat but an important part of the game full stop. Ryu and Ken have especially good cross-ups with HK/MK and Ken's ambiguous FP is also worth trying out.

In general advice, I'd say that learning a good defence was they key to me getting some results against 'better' players and consequently learning to play 'better'. Anyone can mash buttons and do 500+dmg but if you're always getting poked to death, it's useless. You've got a minute and a half to take them down, so unless your tea's on the table, there's no point giving them a free win by jumping in crazy. That doesn't mean 'turtling', either. You can almost be on a constant offensive without sending a telegram. A big part of it comes down to controlling space, putting them where you have the most attacking options. For Ken, as I said, that's just inside my f+MK range, just outside their sweep range. If they throw something out or jump in, I've got enough time to react to it and hopefully make them think twice next time, reducing their options even further. That doesn't mean I manage to punish every time or even manage to avoid getting fucked up (!) but it means that more often than not, I'm putting them on the back foot. Now, of course, I'm a very average player and being able to read and dictate the game is a mountain I've only really begun to climb but even with a few simple tips, you can start to turn the theory to your advantage.

Err, I might love Street Fighter even more than Animal Collective.

[samadriel]

I so badly need to get this 360 repaired and get this game but I'm broke after a month's jolly holidays. Can't send it back to MS, it's a chipped Chinese one. When I do, though, I'll be well up for some tournaments. Not caught samdriel online for some PC SF4 in a little while - I was just starting to pull a little closer too, hehe!

Heh, yeah, I've retired for awhile, my uni workload has exploded.  Probably will return in a few weeks.  Gonna be a long wait for PC SSF4...  I really want to try Bison with a proper Psycho Crusher (and that new ultra of course, and the tweaked cr.HP...), and I suspect I'll finally have a secondary character in Dee Jay, really liked him in Super Turbo and he looks viable here.  Dudley's moveset looks a bit overwhelming for me, might give him a crack tho', and Cody might be fun.

Not too sure about RL's complaint about charge characters getting more damage...  I know Bison isn't the powerhouse he should be, and I don't tend to fear the damage output of Honda or Blanka; certainly not compared to Sagat or Rufus, to pick two egregiously damaging motion characters (Balrog's a bastard though, and also suffers from the problem of being more boring, the better he's played; throwing an attack at him out of sheer tedium has meant my defeat many times).  It's true I can thrash casual Shotos with Bison, but I think it's just down to knowing the basics.  The Shotos really do have an answer for every situation (well, Ryu, Akuma and Sagat definitely do), answers most charge characters envy (...except Balrog, he's got his headbutt); it's just a matter of staying disciplined and giving the right answer when 'asked'.

I could never figure out why Ryu never really had a super Shoryuken of any sort until now, given him scarring Sagat with one is like a major plot point (and the only canon appearance of "Evil Ryu").

His and Gouken's Dragon Punch ultras come from Ryu's Shin Shoryuken in Street Fighter 3 (1997)

[Lee Van Cleef]

Okay. I've got this finally and been playing it a little this morning.  God it's impossible to the the move that I want from Ryu with the D-Pad or Stick on the 360 controller.  I generally prefer it over PS controllers, but every time I go to do a Fireball I end up with a Dragon Punch.  At times it feels like the stick is too sensitive.

Oh well, I'll keep plugging away I suppose.

[Spiteface]

My advice would be to buy a stick or one of those SFIV Fightpads instead of using the regular 360 controller.  The Fightpads tend to be about £20-£30, and I think they're 2 for £30 in HMV.  If you are serious about fighting games (I tend own more of them than any other genre whatever console I have), then a stick is so worth it, but the more basic fightpad is a definite improvement over the Xbox monstrosity.  If nothing else, the pads have the 6 buttons on the front, rather than having 2 of them mapped to shoulder buttons.

[Brent Cockman]

I don't know if folks have been keeping up with the world of SSF4, but it's to get an update before long. The new arcade version is undergoing location testing in Osaka right now, and there are two new characters to contend with: Yun and Yang from SF3. The home version will receive this update online, and reports so far suggest that quite a few of the existing characters have been tweaked here and there. Nothing is final yet though and it's all subject to change.

For anybody that's interested, there's more detailed information here.

[Spiteface]

My advice would be to buy a stick or one of those SFIV Fightpads instead of using the regular 360 controller.  The Fightpads tend to be about £20-£30, and I think they're 2 for £30 in HMV.  If you are serious about fighting games (I tend own more of them than any other genre whatever console I have), then a stick is so worth it, but the more basic fightpad is a definite improvement over the Xbox monstrosity.  If nothing else, the pads have the 6 buttons on the front, rather than having 2 of them mapped to shoulder buttons.

Update on this.

HMV has some of these on sale for £11. Well worth it.  I have an M Bison one and Ryu design one.  huge improvement over the 360 controller, and ideal for "retro" stuff like that Megadrive compilation Sega put out.  The Madcatz fightpads do have a very "Sega" feel to them, and I always did like Sega's controllers.

[Brent Cockman]

Yeah they seem okay. Far better design than the older 15th Anniversary SF Pad which placed select and start right above the mp button (people have been disqualified for accidentally pausing the game while using that pad in tournaments, avoid it like the plague).