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Dead n**ger Storage

Started by copylight, June 06, 2010, 02:56:58 PM

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copylight

Strange question but this bugs me. Both Pulp Fiction & True Romance feature white characters using the word n**ger in non racist, post pejorative ways. I'm sure Tarantino was never out to portray Mike Leigh realism but I'm sure he was basing it on some kind of experience.

Particularly In PF, the Jimmy role Tarantino cast for himself uses it (albeit badly acted) like it was a semantic script change from fucker, dude, or git. Of all the the fuss his films had in the beginning with their ''glorified use of violence'' etc, I don't think I ever read anything about this charged word being used so openly by a white actor. It just seems like it was accepted as if it was a natural parlance for any Los Angelian. Personally, it sits fine with me but I have never referred to black people I know as n**ger, because I am not an american and neither am I a character from a 90's Tarantino film.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-7f7vVCqvI


I'd love to know if people in LA or elsewhere actively use n**ger as a term of un-racist reference and which films carry this torch.



mook

 it's awhile since i've watched the film, but from what i remember jimmy and jules are friends from way back - so maybe jimmy is allowed to use the word n**ger in jules' company, especially when he is helping them clear up some gangster mishap. he got a nice new oak bedroom set out it after all.

Danger Man

I'm still trying to understand why people think Tarantino is a good director who makes good movies.

I can only assume that the same mass critical blindness extends to his use of language.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

I read an interview with Samuel L. Jackson in which he claimed that he was bothered, not by the word, but by the pronunciation. According to him, Tarantino should have pronounced it 'nigga', like the rap singers, rather than 'n**ger' like a redneck.

El Unicornio, mang

Quote from: Danger Man on June 06, 2010, 03:10:29 PM
I'm still trying to understand why people think Tarantino is a good director who makes good movies.



Because he is and he does

copylight

Quote from: mook on June 06, 2010, 03:07:38 PM
it's awhile since i've watched the film, but from what i remember jimmy and jules are friends from way back - so maybe jimmy is allowed to use the word n**ger in jules' company, especially when he is helping them clear up some gangster mishap. he got a nice new oak bedroom set out it after all.

Yes. What I remember is all of them using n**ger as a bamlem for anything human in the film; and regardless of the n**ger count, the gimp-bumming counter attack was at least watchable.

lipsink

Spike Lee had quite a problem with Tarantino's use of the word. From Wikipedia:

Tarantino has been criticized for a too familial attitude towards other cultures. Spike Lee questions the use of racial epithets in his films, particularly the racially offensive word n**ger. In an interview for Variety discussing Jackie Brown, Lee said: "I'm not against the word... and I use it, but Quentin is infatuated with the word. What does he want? To be made an honorary black man?"[35]  Tarantino retaliated on The Howard Stern Show by stating Lee would have to "stand on a chair to kiss my ass"[36]  Samuel L. Jackson, who has appeared in films directed by both directors, defended Tarantino's use of the word. At the Berlin Film Festival, where Jackie Brown was being screened, Jackson responded to Lee's criticism by saying:
"    I don't think the word is offensive in the context of this film. ... Black artists think they are the only ones allowed to use the word. Well, that's bull. Jackie Brown is a wonderful homage to black exploitation films. This is a good film, and Spike hasn't made one of those in a few years.[37]    "

Tarantino has defended his use of the word, arguing that black audiences have an appreciation of his blaxploitation-influenced films that eludes some of his critics, and, indeed, that Jackie Brown, another oft-cited example, was primarily made for "black audiences".[38]


I also remember Tarantino said that the PF clip you posted was funny because if that character had said that to a black man in reality he would've had his brains blown out. Surely that's about 100 times more racist though! I always found it funny because it says something about the characters relationship. Jules and we know that Jimmy is just angry and he clearly isn't racist at all. Isn't his wife Bonnie black too?

hoverdonkey

Yeah, Jimmy and Jules go way back, so he must just feel comfortable using it. I loved the film when it came out and watched it countless times on DVD. I even managed to persuade my A Level English Lit teacher to let me write an essay on the screenplay just after it came out. I saw it for the first time in ages a few months ago, but think the film stands up well. Some memorable moments that bring back happy memories of an exciting time (heading off to Uni etc)

mook

thinking about it more - well as much as i can think about things at this time of the day - marcelus wallace* greets vincent in the club as "my n**ger" i just assumed that the word was used as a term to describe other naughty boys, regardless of the colour of their skin.


* perhaps i've got that wrong - it might have been the bartender guy that said that?

surreal

Chris Rock has a whole bit about Black People vs Niggaz:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui6-Wc0PDc4

Seems to go over quite well...

El Unicornio, mang


Goldentony

Quote from: mook on June 06, 2010, 03:24:32 PM
thinking about it more - well as much as i can think about things at this time of the day - marcelus wallace* greets vincent in the club as "my n**ger" i just assumed that the word was used as a term to describe other naughty boys, regardless of the colour of their skin.


* perhaps i've got that wrong - it might have been the bartender guy that said that?

Bartender doesn't say it, he greets Vincent as 'Our Man In Amsterdam' and Jules as 'Our Man In Inglewood'

I' trying to remember who uses it in the film and as far as I can remember -

Marcellus Wallace greeting Vince and when he's bribing Butch
The racist bum crazy shop owner
Jimmy during this scene

First two make sense I guess, ones just generally doing the typical gangsta usage and ones a mental racist. Only explanation I could fathom for Jimmy is the one everyones giving - Jimmy and Jules go way back and obviously he's grown accustomed to saying it. Although they did dump a dead body in his garage at short notice so he could just be an angry racist prick trying to get across how much of an angry prick he is about the fact that this could potentially ruin his life.

True Romance - makes sense again, Dennis Hopper obviously knows he's going to get blown away so tried to rile up the gangsters one final time and Mafia are supposedly notoriously race sensitive.


lipsink

Quote from: surreal on June 06, 2010, 03:26:09 PM
Chris Rock has a whole bit about Black People vs Niggaz:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui6-Wc0PDc4

Seems to go over quite well...

Ah, that's an interesting one. I saw a Mark Lamarr presented show called 'Stand Up America' where some black critics and standups seemed quite opposed to it on the grounds that it made people happy with their prejudices. Most praised it though and Cedric the Entertainerargued that the controversy it caused was possibly because it was like giving away a 'black' secret to white audiences.

El Unicornio, mang

Reservoir Dogs had quite a few n-words.

"If this is such a truism, how come every n**ger I know treats his woman like a piece of shit?"

"Daddy, the man walks in the prison a white man, walks out talkin' like a fuckin' n**ger"

"You guys act like a bunch of fuckin' n**gers. You wanna be n**gers, huh?"

Mr Colossal

Unlike half the things he bangs on about I do think Spike Lee had a point in his 'honorary black man'  accusation, be it motivated by sour grapes or not... there are some people who just seem to be dying for some kind of insider 'acceptance' and its a taboo they're seemingly itching at the trigger finger to push.  Zach Braffs another one. Obviously he doesnt go as far as dropping the N-bomb. But I guess it depends whether you enterpret his 'brown bear' affection for Turk as some kind of 'post-racism comfortableness' in their relationship -or as Braff trying to crowbar in some kind of 'BEHOLD ME TRANSGRESSOR OF RACES!'  ego-massaging at the every nearest opportunity...

rudi


Quote from: copylight on June 06, 2010, 02:56:58 PM
I don't think I ever read anything about this charged word being used so openly by a white actor. It just seems like it was accepted as if it was a natural parlance for any Los Angelian.

There was a fair amount of dust kicked up over the usage at the time, if I recall correctly, particularly in America.

As said, I think it's understood that he's in the company of someone he knows well, he's super-angry and it appears to be something neither of them think twice about.

Quote from: Danger Man on June 06, 2010, 03:10:29 PM
I'm still trying to understand why people think Tarantino is a good director who makes good movies.

I can only assume that the same mass critical blindness extends to his use of language.

Or maybe a number of critics (and norms) disagree with you? He's made a couple of stinkers but they're adequately made up for by Jackie Brown and Pulp Fiction.

lipsink

Quote from: El Unicornio, mang on June 06, 2010, 03:41:33 PM
Reservoir Dogs had quite a few n-words.

Yeah, but the characters in 'Reservoir Dogs' are pretty much lowlifes. And their behaviour is a bunch of contradictions anyway. Mr White for example seems to be the decent honourable one of the group yet we see some shocking behaviour (casually shooting the cops) from him. Nice Guy Eddie too seems funny and likeable in some scenes, deadly serious and repulsive  in others.

Danger Man

Quote from: rudi on June 06, 2010, 03:45:07 PMHe's made a couple of stinkers but they're adequately made up for by Jackie Brown and Pulp Fiction.

Actually, I did like Jackie Brown. So 1 out of 8 ain't bad.

As for why he's allowed to use the 'n-word', it's because all his fellow 'white fanboys' love it.

You only have to look at this forum to see the glee in which racial abuse is used ironically.

El Unicornio, mang

Quote from: lipsink on June 06, 2010, 03:51:21 PM
Mr White for example seems to be the decent honourable one of the group yet we see some shocking behaviour (casually shooting the cops) from him.

Also, this deleted scene reveals he is a pretty nasty individual

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjXhaXbT9cc

mook

Quote from: Goldentony on June 06, 2010, 03:32:51 PM
Bartender doesn't say it, he greets Vincent as 'Our Man In Amsterdam' and Jules as 'Our Man In Inglewood'

I' trying to remember who uses it in the film and as far as I can remember -

Marcellus Wallace greeting Vince and when he's bribing Butch
The racist bum crazy shop owner
Jimmy during this scene

First two make sense I guess, ones just generally doing the typical gangsta usage and ones a mental racist. Only explanation I could fathom for Jimmy is the one everyones giving - Jimmy and Jules go way back and obviously he's grown accustomed to saying it. Although they did dump a dead body in his garage at short notice so he could just be an angry racist prick trying to get across how much of an angry prick he is about the fact that this could potentially ruin his life.

True Romance - makes sense again, Dennis Hopper obviously knows he's going to get blown away so tried to rile up the gangsters one final time and Mafia are supposedly notoriously race sensitive.

yeah, you're right - i got it mixed up with marcelus asking butch* if he was "my n**ger" when offering the bribe for throwing the fight in the same scene.


*butch replies "it certainly appears so." you do realise you bastards have made me find, and watch this fucking film again.

Dosen't Tarantino's use of n**ger stem from the same malaise that induces him to make observations about the difference between black people and white people watching films at the cinema on the Jackie Brown DVD? I think he considers himself to have been raised immersed in 'black culture', even though he is white, and thus he can comment on the differences between the two. Which he actually does on the DVD by explaining the white persons position in his own voice, then lowering his voice and mumbling 'shit' after every sentence to represent the black person's point of view. He is immersed in black culture.


mr. logic

Pulp Fiction is superbly written- is there much mileage in the idea that Jimmy was secretly a bit of a racist cunt who was chuffed that he finally had an excuse to use that word without being even verbally checked for it? 

That True Romance scene mentioned is a strange one- Tarantino mentions on the commentary that's it's something he used to say to his Italian room mate to piss him off.  Which seems a little bit dubious.

mr. logic

Quote from: El Unicornio, mang on June 06, 2010, 04:00:51 PM
Also, this deleted scene reveals he is a pretty nasty individual

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjXhaXbT9cc

Thanks for that, though it was a good move cutting it- that was really shit.

lipsink

Quote from: mr. logic on June 06, 2010, 04:30:11 PM
Thanks for that, though it was a good move cutting it- that was really shit.

The computer really ages it doesn't it!


mr. logic

Quote from: lipsink on June 06, 2010, 04:31:12 PM
The computer really ages it doesn't it!

The clumsy pop culture reference- it was like watching one of those imitation Tarantino films- and the way they hacked to pieces the otherwise neatly established ambiguity of Mr White's character didn't help.  Also, come on...like a bunch of bank robbers wouldn't have just moved on or planned a different heist if they worked out there was a cop working undercover on them.  Doesn't Mr. Pink (or White, in fact) say something along those very lines when they're working out if there was a rat?

El Unicornio, mang


alan nagsworth


Stanley Turbine

Quote from: Mr Colossal on June 06, 2010, 03:41:44 PMZach Braffs another one. Obviously he doesnt go as far as dropping the N-bomb. But I guess it depends whether you enterpret his 'brown bear' affection for Turk as some kind of 'post-racism comfortableness' in their relationship -or as Braff trying to crowbar in some kind of 'BEHOLD ME TRANSGRESSOR OF RACES!'  ego-massaging at the every nearest opportunity...

Scrubs isn't a documentary though, does Zach Braff actually call Donald Faison "brown bear" in real life? I don't think he wrote any of the episodes and didn't direct any until a few series into the run, so I don't know much ability he would have had to crowbar anything in. In the show JD's attempts to seem "down" with black culture are used for comic effect because of how geeky and white he is (well, up to the 5th season at least, I stopped watching after that because it was too shit).