So, Doctor Who.

[Serge]

Until the current series came along, Series One was my favourite Nu-Who series. Possibly it's because of Eccleston, long one of my favourite actors, but I do believe that Russell T Davies' worst instincts were largely kept in check for that series. I'm possibly one of the few people who actually enjoys 'Aliens Of London'/'World War 3' - although I could happily lose the farting - and I think 'Rose' was a cracking way for the series to come back. And I think I've said on here before that 'Dalek' is my favourite Dalek story of the new run.

[SetToStun]

The mistake people make with the Daleks is to think they are emotionless killers, they're not like the Cybermen in that regard, they are actually a seething brew of emotions - anger, hate, impatience, annoyance, not to mention their long held ability to be scheming and devious. Lose all that and the Daleks become rubbish, which is why those scenes in Victory of the Daleks where they're pretending to be friendly are so great (whilst the rest of it is total guff).

Hold on there, big fella; I thought the Daleks were devoid of emotion from the get-go. What appears to be anger and hate is simply coldly logical contempt for any inferior species (i.e. all of them) and the desire to see the Universe purged of all non-Daleks as a well-thought-out conclusion to their own superiority. I might be mistaken here, but didn't Davros have to try to get the Tom Baker version of the Doctor to help out in a space battle against some other species because the Daleks couldn't do the unpredictable, emotional, random stuff that would open up an equally cold, logical enemy? Yes, they can dissemble by not answering questions, but they're not able to outright lie as they simply don't have the imagination.

As for scheming, they recognize weakness and emotion in others and are able to use that against them, but that doesn't imply they understand, let alone have, those vulnerabilities and feelings themselves.

My two-penn'orth there - although I admit I'm looking back atthe Daleks through a very, very long tube and I might be missing something.

[gatchamandave]

Hold on there, big fella; I thought the Daleks were devoid of emotion from the get-go. What appears to be anger and hate is simply coldly logical contempt for any inferior species (i.e. all of them) and the desire to see the Universe purged of all non-Daleks as a well-thought-out conclusion to their own superiority. I might be mistaken here, but didn't Davros have to try to get the Tom Baker version of the Doctor to help out in a space battle against some other species because the Daleks couldn't do the unpredictable, emotional, random stuff that would open up an equally cold, logical enemy? Yes, they can dissemble by not answering questions, but they're not able to outright lie as they simply don't have the imagination.

Au contraire. Biggy speaks true. Consider Power of the Daleks where the three initially resurrected Daleks outright lie from the start ( I-AM-YOUR-SER-VANT !) and crack the odd ironic joke ( YES. YOU GAVE US POWER !) whilst manipulating the greed of the humans to their own ends. Or Death to the Daleks where a Dalek hsytericalises itself to death ( I HAVE FAILED ! ), or Planet of the Daleks where a Dalek head-scientist attempts to bluster its way out of being exterminated by the Dalek Supreme and fails dismally.

Yes, you're right about that scenario, which occurs in Destiny of the Daleks, and since it's written by Terry Nation as a direct thematic sequel to Genesis look on it this way. One of the things that isn't explained is that title. What does Terry mean by the Daleks' "destiny " ? Well, Terry having described the Daleks elsewhere thus - " "Inside each of those shells is living, bubbling lump of hate." - in the aforementioned Death to..., the last pure Dalek story ever written before Davros trundles on-screen by the way, we must accept either that he's lost the plot about his greatest ever creations, which is unlikely or he's trying to suggest something when they become robot-creatures by the time Destiny is set. That would make sense - Terry always likes to think big and apocalyptic ( Survivors, Blakes 7 : Terminal both show us the end of the human race ) and here he's worked the Daleks' final end out for himself - they become more robot than Kaled.

But prior to that - very heightened emotions indeed, exterminating because they hate. Remember, Davros in Genesis suggests he can instill emotions in them, as he considers the Doctor's proposal that he make the Daleks a force for good. They have no "pit-ty ? " , but by Davros, they hate...

As for scheming, they recognize weakness and emotion in others and are able to use that against them, but that doesn't imply they understand, let alone have, those vulnerabilities and feelings themselves.

My two-penn'orth there - although I admit I'm looking back atthe Daleks through a very, very long tube and I might be missing something.

Again, I think that's because the vulnerabilities have been genetically removed at Kaled mutant stage - and can be reinstilled i Alpha, Beta and OMEGA !!! are to make any sense in Evil of.... But Davros doesn't see hate, contempt and pure psychosis as weaknesses, it would seem.

[SetToStun]

I still think in "Victory" the Daleks don't ever actually lie, they just dissemble and give incomplete answers; at the time they were asked they were indeed the "SER-VANT" and "SOL-DIER" they claimed to be. Only temporarily, true, but still not a lie. As far as the rest of it goes, my memory clearly wasn't 100% accurate as I would swear they had had the last emotional response burned out of them at some point; their "hatred" being just the logical conclusion of their assumed superiority. In other words if you're not a Delek then you are either their slave or, if they can't find a use for you, dead. It might look like hatred but I still just feel that it's more of a sociopathic response than a rage-driven thing. Still, your point (and biggy's too) holds up much better under the evidence, which is, admittedly, all on your side, so I concede that I was probably guilty of remembering things more as I wanted them to be than as they actually were. Good arguments well presented, sirs.

[gatchamandave]

I still think in "Victory" the Daleks don't ever actually lie, they just dissemble and give incomplete answers; at the time they were asked they were indeed the "SER-VANT" and "SOL-DIER" they claimed to be. Only temporarily, true, but still not a lie. As far as the rest of it goes, my memory clearly wasn't 100% accurate as I would swear they had had the last emotional response burned out of them at some point; their "hatred" being just the logical conclusion of their assumed superiority. In other words if you're not a Delek then you are either their slave or, if they can't find a use for you, dead. It might look like hatred but I still just feel that it's more of a sociopathic response than a rage-driven thing. Still, your point (and biggy's too) holds up much better under the evidence, which is, admittedly, all on your side, so I concede that I was probably guilty of remembering things more as I wanted them to be than as they actually were. Good arguments well presented, sirs.

It also gives you good reason to watch some old "Who" again, which is always nice.

[SetToStun]

Sadly I don't have any. Mind you, the other half is into Who and also into old TV series in general (we're currently going through the whole of Upstairs Downstairs, and have also recently done I, Claudius, Elizabeth R and The World At War and have just started on Blake's Seven. She also has Bagpuss and The Flumps, amongst others). I reckon she'd probably enjoy rewatching old Who - she certainly mentions it whenever something in new Who annoys her (which is a lot since Gillan got on board and the scripts keep having her pout, hold things up or whatever). I might have to order some and see what happens. Thanks for the idea :-)

[Ambient Sheep]

NEVER DOUBT THE DATABASE

:-)  But hey, if I really did have a database, it wouldn't have taken me two hours!!

Anyway, thanks for the thanks, everybody, gave me a nice warm glow inside and made it all worthwhile.

I might have to order some [old Doctor Who] and see what happens. Thanks for the idea :-)

And now you know where there's a thread to recommend you just that... ;-)

_{^{<cough> Pyramids of Mars <cough>}}

[Tokyo Sexwhale]

Wow, two hours later, that took a lot longer to find and update than I thought...

Well, you could have used the "Doctor Who" tags that I'd done ages ago.  Isn't that what tags are for?  ;)

[Fry]

Did someone slip me some LSD before I started watching "Bad Wolf", if they did I must remember to thank them.

It's weird! But great! (so far).

[Fry]

Robot trinny and what's-the-other-one's name get blasted by a naked Captain Jack from an arse-laser. Great.

[Fry]

Rose is a Super Sayan now then? That's stupid.

Edit: What?! Fuck off!

[Still Not George]

Welcome to our horror from a few years ago, Fry *smiley*

Now you know why we all call RTD "That Fat Cunt Wot Can't Resolve His Plotlines Properly (and also has a serious issue with dads)"

[Jemble Fred]

Yes, and you've still got "Woolly-headed twat who can't keep any of his plotlines in order or even write the correct amount for the slot" to come...

[Fry]

I've really quite warmed to Billie Piper... how bad, exactly, is Catherine Tate. I really am dreading it.

[biggytitbo]

Billie's really good in series 1, but mostly an annoying cunt in series 2 and rubbish, underused and lispy in series 4.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

I've really quite warmed to Billie Piper... how bad, exactly, is Catherine Tate. I really am dreading it.

She's almost unbearably awful in her first story, The Runaway Bride, but she's surprisingly tolerable - and occasionally outstanding - during series four. So don't worry, she's not nearly as bad as you might reasonably expect, and she certainly doesn't ruin the show by any means. Also she's a far better actress than the otherwise likeable Freema Agyeman.

[Jemble Fred]

Donna was annoying, but her faux-barrow-boy squawking does seem less annoying in hindsight, compared to the eurgh-and-creepy "Oh I'm such a lonely little girl look after me and LET ME SUCK YOUR ALIEN COCK NOW" shenanigans of Amy Pond.

[Ambient Sheep]

Rose is a Super Sayan now then? That's stupid.

Edit: What?! Fuck off!

Heh.  But c'mon, that parting holographic message must have brought a tear to your eye, surely?  Especially the bit

Spoiler alert

where he turns to look directly at her

[close]

.

I warn you now though, that was the BEST of RTD's finales, in my opinion.  Series 2's is patchy, Series 4's is so gloriously over-the-top that you can't really poke many holes in it, it's pointless...however...however...you still have the utter horror of Series 3's to come, and as for the Christmas episode that followed...<throws up into nearby bucket>

I've really quite warmed to Billie Piper... how bad, exactly, is Catherine Tate. I really am dreading it.

No need for dread...

She's almost unbearably awful in her first story, The Runaway Bride, but she's surprisingly tolerable - and occasionally outstanding - during series four. So don't worry, she's not nearly as bad as you might reasonably expect, and she certainly doesn't ruin the show by any means. Also she's a far better actress than the otherwise likeable Freema Agyeman.

...what he said.  Thanks Ballad, you saved me the trouble.


By the way Fry, make sure you watch the Children In Need mini-episode between The Parting Of The Ways and The Christmas Invasion.  While not absolutely essential, it does fill in some missing plot.

[biggytitbo]

Freema is my favourite of RTDs companions I think, she's the archetypical Doctor Who companion, clever, brave and likeable. Doesn't matter that she's not the best dramatic actress in the world, although she shows in the Human Nature story she's excellent with the right material.

Tate is the best actress of the 3, and she is really outstanding when doing the straight drama stuff like in Fires of Pompeii or Turn Left, but pretty annoying when she's doing her comedy shtick.

[biggytitbo]

however...however...you still have the utter horror of Series 3's to come...

Tish. That 3 parter Utopia, Sound of Drums and Last of the Timelords is fucking amazing, undermined only slightly by one contentious scene at the end of the latter. Apart from that its one of the absolute high-points of the new series I think. In fact that whole 6 episode run from Human Nature to Blink to Last of the Timelords is some of the best TV ever made.

[Lookalike Mark Chapman]

Tate really surprised me in a very positive way. The Donna of Runaway Bride was annoying, but by the time she was full-time she had developed a great deal and turned into a really good companion for Tennant's Doctor.

Spoiler alert

Making it all the more tragic when she reverts back to unreconstructed Donna at the end.

[close]

Call it stunt casting if you like, but to make the audience-identification figure in a kids' show (yeah I went there) a forty-year-old woman was brave, but good writing and good acting made it work. The chemistry with Tennant was excellent, and she was a lot more likeable than, for example, series 2 Billie.

Plus of course, no Tate, NO CRIBBINS.

[Ambient Sheep]

Tish. That 3 parter Utopia, Sound of Drums and Last of the Timelords is fucking amazing, undermined only slightly by one contentious scene at the end of the latter.

We'll clearly never agree on this, so I'll be brief.  For me it's not just that one contentious scene, it's the whole goddam thing.  The best bit was

Spoiler alert

Derek Jacobi opening his watch and realising he was The Master

[close]

, after that it was all downhill.  Not at all keen on

Spoiler alert

John Simm as The Master (although having said that I almost liked him during The End Of Time)

[close]

, so that obviously makes the whole thing a bit rubbish to watch for me, and on top of that I thought the whole

Spoiler alert

parading The Doctor around his boardroom

[close]

business was rubbish from start to finish.  The contentious scene was just the icing on the cake, and dragged the rest of it down with it.

Apart from that its one of the absolute high-points of the new series I think. In fact that whole 6 episode run from Human Nature to Blink to Last of the Timelords is some of the best TV ever made.

Human Nature to Blink, no argument about.  Three brilliant episodes.  Utopia was OK, with a great ending.  After that, well, see above.

[Lookalike Mark Chapman]

Sorry to fill your thread with stuff you shouldn't be reading Fry, but...

I thought the whole

Spoiler alert

parading The Doctor around his boardroom

[close]

business was rubbish from start to finish.

I

Spoiler alert

loved that bit. The Master was obviously having the time of his life, torturing The Doctor. Brilliant uneasy feeling to those scenes - they're actually very bleak, but the Master's getting such a kick out of being evil. It's not just hammy, stock villain evil laugh stuff - he's demonstrably deliriously happy. Brr

[close]

.

[biggytitbo]

I love the fact he's a genuinely horrible cunt in that episode too, his delight at

Spoiler alert

Martha's family in chains, the implication that he's hitting his wife, making the Doctor live in a dogs kennel.

[close]

It's strange, dark stuff.

[Ambient Sheep]

I

Spoiler alert

loved that bit. The Master was obviously having the time of his life, torturing The Doctor. Brilliant uneasy feeling to those scenes - they're actually very bleak, but the Master's getting such a kick out of being evil. It's not just hammy, stock villain evil laugh stuff - he's demonstrably deliriously happy. Brr

[close]

.

Hmmm.  I'm clearly going to have to rewatch it all sometime, because clearly a few people here found some worth in it all at the time, and I don't want to hate any of it.  Maybe I was just in a bad mood that year? ;-)

I think my problem with those scenes is twofold, both of which you've touched on:

Firstly,

Spoiler alert

I don't like The Doctor being tortured like that.  Actually, it's not so much the torture I have a problem with, but him being demeaned and humiliated.  Even when we've seen him in agony in the past (e.g. Eccleston in Dalek, Tom Baker in Genesis of the Daleks or Pyramids of Mars), he's always kept his dignity, more-or-less.  The "Ha-ha look, I have him in a cage now" bleakness you mention is what I hate.

[close]

Secondly,

Spoiler alert

I'm afraid to me it is precisely "just hammy, stock villain evil laugh stuff", with some -- to me, unconvincing -- delirious happiness thrown in as well.  It just seems, I dunno...all very fake.  When John Simm announced his comeback for The End Of Time, and said "Hah, if you thought The Master was crazy last time round, wait for this time, I'm really hamming it up, he's REALLY demented!!" (or words to that effect) I facepalmed, but actually, as I said above, when it went out I thought it worked so much better!  And I'm not sure why.  Perhaps because he seemed genuinely and desperately insane, rather than just "Ooooh wow, look how wackily evil **I** am, get me!!" as he did in Series 3.

Maybe, in the light of that later performance, I may have to go back and rewatch the Series 3 finale episodes to see if I'm better with him.

[close]

[Fry]

What's the general opinion on ol' Eccles cakes? I wasn't that mad on him at first, but during his run I really began to like him. Like a fun uncle to Matt Smith's crazy cousin. (I have only seen a few Tennant episodes, I liked the New Earth one).


EDIT: Are there any (old- or nu-) Who episodes that explain a bit more about the Timelords, I have questions.

[biggytitbo]

What's the general opinion on ol' Eccles cakes? I wasn't that mad on him at first, but during his run I really began to like him. Like a fun uncle to Matt Smith's crazy cousin. (I have only seen a few Tennant episodes, I liked the New Earth one).


EDIT: Are there any (old- or nu-) Who episodes that explain a bit more about the Timelords, I have questions.

Sound of Drums has some lovely stuff in it about them.

[Fry]

I think I saw that but I can't remember a thing about it.

[Lookalike Mark Chapman]

Well, what are your questions?

[purlieu]

There's a lot of Timelord history strewn throughout the old series.  The War Games, The Three Doctors, The Deadly Assassin and The Five Doctors add a fair bit of information.