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The Thief and the Cobbler: Recobbled Cut on Youtube

Started by tygerbug, June 26, 2010, 03:24:03 AM

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tygerbug

Trailer!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJry5ReXZVM

Youtube's quality keeps getting better, so it was high time I took over TheThiefArchive channel on Youtube (previously run by fan Patrick McCart), and uploaded my restoration of this wonderful unfinished animated classic in high quality.

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E62ibzd8WX4

Playlist for the whole film:
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheThiefArchive#grid/user/18B0CA620B61D076

Channel:
http://www.youtube.com/thethiefarchive

It looks lovely. It is lovely, of course. A cult favorite among animation enthusiasts, this was the dream project of UK-based Canadian animator Richard Williams, 3 time Oscar winner (for Who Framed Roger Rabbit? and a wonderful version of A Christmas Carol).

For over 23 years, in his spare time between other projects, the respected (insane perfectionist) animator put millions of pounds of his own money into developing and animating bits of the film. After the success of Who Framed Roger Rabbit, Warners put up the money so he could finally complete the film .... but they eventually lost faith in him, and with the imminent release of Disney's suspiciously similar Aladdin, the project was canned .... with just 15 minutes of animation left to be completed.

It was eventually finished by an idiot, with the help of other idiots, and came out as an insultingly terrible piece of garbage called Arabian Knight .... owned, in another suspicious complete lack of coincidence, by Disney.

This is my 2006 restoration of the film, using some of the terrible footage but mostly the original footage by Richard Williams and his team (including master animator Ken Harris). I had a lot of help from a lot of people, including many who worked on the original film.

It's a great animated film by a great animator, and finally it's on Youtube in quality worth watching.

Enjoy.

SavageHedgehog

I've watched it before and really appreciate what you've done, but I have to say I do find the whole thing immensely upsetting! I suspect one day the world will see a completed Thief and the Cobbler, but sadly I think that will be after Willams passes.

There are (or were) some great documentaries on Williams and Cobbler in that archive including a South Bank episode from around 1982.

Santa's Boyfriend

Me too, the genius of the film shines through in the version you did, even though you had to use some of the dodgy poorly animated shots at points.  (The shot of Tack and Yum Yum riding towards the camera near the end springs to mind!)

I know that Richard Williams has no interest in finishing the film now - I'm not surprised really, when you get fucked around the way he was, saying "to hell with it" is the only sensible reaction.  I do wonder what he thinks of the recobbled cut though.  He must get asked about it.

Wasn't there some talk of Disney finishing the film properly a while back?  I assume Williams didn't want it to happen?

Also, this is probably a really stupid question, but... any chance of a HD version?  :-)

biggytitbo

Fantastic stuff. To think if you didn't know you could watch this film and point out bits that looked cgi, yet the whole thing is 100% hand drawn. Amazing.

Mustow Green

I watched your 'recobbled' version a few years back and loved it then, so I'll definately get around to watching this again very soon.
So, for  now, thanks for all the hard work you've put into this.

Regarding what Biggytitbo said above;  I recall seeing a traller for this film, at the cinema, before Predator 2, (don't know the precise year, but that has to have been 90-93 sometime?), and was dumbstruck how wonderful this looked to be.  The shots from inside the war machine certainly looked computer generated, or how you imagined CGI animation may look down the years?  This must've been a 'coming soon' sneak preview affair and, for years, I always wondered what the hell happened to that extraordinary looking film?  I'm just lucky to have seen some of this on the big screen.

Again, thanks.


chocky909

#5
Where can I get this in better quality? I think I've found a few different versions but which is the best? The Mark III Recobble?

EDIT I grabbed the Mark III version in AVI format and it doesn't look as good as this youtube version. The colours are washed out and there is more compression I think.

tygerbug

  I'm trying to add all the documentaries and other material as well when I have time. The Thief Who Never Gave Up documentary from 1980 is quite good. Youtube doesn't like 24p DVD material, so I have to either convert it or do it from an AVI version I have around somewhere I think.

  (There's definitely a torrent of the Mark 3 DVD out there somewhere in pirate land. Mark 3 isn't in the title, but it's mentioned in the info text.)

   (I'm thinking of torrenting my archive of news articles and images and interesting things related to the film as well. We'll see.)
 
  I saw a trailer for Arabian Knight in the theater too - having read about this film when I was seven, in Comics Scene Magazine, I saw that something awful had happened to the film, but didn't actually track it down and see it until a few years later- 1999 or so. That trailer showed up on the very rare Japanese widescreen DVD release of the film and is on my Youtube.

   An HD version would be wonderful but is extremely unlikely since we'd need HD versions of all the different versions of the film first. Someone was looking into finding an original 35mm print of The Princess and the Cobbler, but it hasn't turned up - Arabian Knight is EXTREMELY rare and Princess is extremely rarer, since the film was never really theatrically released.

   The film was barely ever released on DVD, certainly not in good quality. Arabian Knight was only released in widescreen in Japan and Princess and the Cobbler wasn't released in widescreen at all, so an HD version isn't a priority for the Weinsteins and Disney (who basically still want this film buried, and always will, despite several high-profile Disney staffers having a fondness for it).

   The version of the workprint I have is a low quality PAL AVI posted anonymously on Emule back in 2006. I have no idea who posted it. If I actually had the VHS they were working from, the quality would be much much better. The 24p source material has been smudged together into 25p, leaving it a mess, but the original VHS would presumably have 50i fields containing the original frames. It has nasty clicks and errors all over the soundtrack, and my copy is actually missing data here and there- scenes are missing- though I know other people have copies that aren't missing data in the same places.

   The one thing I could almost certainly get in HD quality would be the early 35mm reels of certain scenes which we transferred for the Mark 3 version, mostly of The Thief, like every shot of The Thief inside the War Machine, and him trying to get the 3 Golden Balls. These were supplied by a collector and animator I'll call KA. Apart from a reel or two, every scene here was animated before Warner Brothers actually funded the film- so it's early stuff from the 70s and 80s. This is how Dick sold the film to Warners. KA got the precious film cans out of Jean MacCurdy's trash, which shows you what Warners thought of the film in the end!

El Unicornio, mang

I'm amazed I've not heard of this before now, but just looking at the clips it's clear that it's a work of genius. The animation is spectacular (makes a lot of modern CGI cartoons look sterile in comparison). Looking forward to sitting down and watching the whole thing, and kudos to you for taking the time to put together this cut.

VegaLA

Quote from: Mustow Green on June 26, 2010, 02:09:06 PM
I recall seeing a traller for this film, at the cinema, before Predator 2, (don't know the precise year, but that has to have been 90-93 sometime?),

I think I saw the trailer for this before Highlander 2, around 1991. The trailer's visuals completely got me excited and when we mentioned the trailer a year later no-one knew what became of it. I have the DVD Tylerbug created a few years ago and i'm looking forwards to seeing  a more complete version.

tygerbug

Sadly you'll be waiting a long time for that!


One thing I need to post to Youtube is more of the Williams studio's animated commercials, which were brilliant.

One thing I definitely won't be posting to Youtube is selections from Dick's 16-DVD set The Animator's Survival Kit Animated- an expansion of his indispensable book, where he explains the principles of animation as taught to him by the great masters back in the day. It's perfect for animation students but few have bought it since it's very expensive. Unlike the book which everyone's got ...

chocky909

I have the DVD (torrent not labelled MKIII but folder was) now and it's much, much better than the AVI. I think it was just a bad conversion. Anyway the DVD is beautifully put together and I've listened to some of the intro and commentary. Makes for very interesting listening. Now to watch the actual film...

Just one question, what's the first proper big bit of Calvert animation in the recobbled edit so I can spot the difference?

tygerbug

 There's Calvert stuff all though the film, literally from frame one. Generally it stands out a mile and you'll have no trouble spotting it.

  When he tries to do something original, or based on one storyboard drawing by Williams, it's shocking. You'll spot it first, probably, in the scene of Tack and Yumyum getting to know one another away from Zigzag and the King. (I used Photoshop to redraw this so that Tack doesn't talk, etc.)

  Tack and Yumyum get most of the Calvert treatment, as Williams didn't animate too much of them, especially past a certain point in the film.

  Not all of it is offensive- for a while, he was working with ex-members of the real team and when they're just coloring in Williams' pencils it usually looks fine (although they often leave out every other frame of animation for cheapness' sake). The scenes with Zigzag and One Eye would be indistinguishable except they're done on much smaller paper and the eyes are done much more cheaply.

  The scene of Zigzag in the tower is shocking though- Williams hadn't finished his pencils for that scene and Calvert's team inked them "as is". I have these pencil tests in high quality and judging from the first shot of the scene, which Williams did finish, Williams intended to completely reanimate the scene in a form bearing only a resemblance to what we see in the "final." Which begs the question of who animated the original.

    There's a few scenes in the film which were done under Calvert but which look all right, apparently done by some of the real London team before they were fired for being a bit good (read: a bit more expensive than Koreans). One shot of the "fight" with the Brigands in the desert has an attractive looseness about it, and the final shot of Tack and Yumyum embracing has very Williams like timing.

SavageHedgehog

It's interesting, if posters memories are accurate, that the trailers were show in front of films which were not accessible by children

teaneck


Mustow Green

Quote from: SavageHedgehog on June 27, 2010, 11:49:11 AM
It's interesting, if posters memories are accurate, that the trailers were show in front of films which were not accessible by children

I never gave it much thought, but yes that is interesting.  I wonder if it was a backhanded way for the marketeers to say 'we have shown the trailer'.

(For memories sake, I saw the cinema at the Warner's Multiplex in Manors, Newcasstle, which had just opened.  The cinema was always empty, so staff levels were low and security lax, so it was the choice venue for sneaking into 18s, as well as jumping from screen to screen).

tygerbug

  It depends on which trailer. I've heard possible reports that a trailer for the "real" version of the film which was never completed was actually shown, prior to the release of Disney's Aladdin (in 1992). The original version of The Thief and the Cobbler was intended for a family audience rather than for children.

  The Arabian Knight trailer would have come later, in 1995 or slightly earlier, and the marketers (Miramax/Disney) wouldn't have cared to put it in front of appropriate films, as they were only releasing the film in a couple of theaters to fulfill a contractual obligation.

   What I saw in theater was the Arabian Knight trailer-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Dt2FjENDBs

   I don't have a copy of this rumored other trailer, but this crass Warner Bros. licensing trailer was probably compiled from similar elements (and also shows a lack of understanding of the film's appeal, and a futile desperation to try to make money from it in a way unrelated to its strengths).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZBMrjshMR4


SavageHedgehog

Quote from: tygerbug on June 28, 2010, 12:04:27 AM
It depends on which trailer. I've heard possible reports that a trailer for the "real" version of the film which was never completed was actually shown, prior to the release of Disney's Aladdin (in 1992). The original version of The Thief and the Cobbler was intended for a family audience rather than for children.

The bbfc lists a trailer that was classified in early 91 (around the time of the UK releases of Predator 2 and Highlander II), which would have been before Calvert took over.  Even given that Cobbler was aiming for a wider age range than most animated films of the time, it still surprises me it was advertised in front of films that were not (officially) aimed at any kind of family audience.

It's also interesting that the Warner marketing thing describes Richard Williams as the "creator of the Pink Panther", which (unless I missed something) he isn't.

tygerbug

 The Pink Panther thing is horribly stupid, but I'm wondering if this "mistake" was done on purpose .... You know, they had one of the most acclaimed and accomplished animators of the 20th century making his dream project for them, and they obviously weren't impressed by it, and felt the need to embellish and lie as much as possible. Like how Universal execs talked about Terry Gilliam's Brazil - "The only way we can sell this piece of shit is by calling it the greatest film of the year." The Warner trailer is all bombast and bullshit, and extremely off-putting, even without the help of any Calvert footage.

El Unicornio, mang

Got the DVD of this, had a look at some of the extras and very impressed, it's actually got more content than a lot of official DVD releases. Highly interesting and informative commentary which puts a lot of commentaries that are full of long pauses and not much info, to shame. Good work!

tygerbug

Thanks! I actually didn't put much on the disc because there was almost no room for anything apart from the feature itself .... I wound up creating about 18 bonus discs .... most of which are at TheThiefArchive Youtube page now. Disc 2 was the main "bonus" disc, and there was also a "Best of Richard Williams" disc which I made for a tribute to Richard held at ASIFA in San Francisco, very nice weekend I had there too! (And that's been torrented.)

Commentaries are cheap in terms of disc space, though, so commentary. Originally there were long interviews with Roy Naisbitt and Alex Williams, both very nice and forthcoming ... but they got cold feet about being associated with a bootleg. Didn't want to piss off Richard either. So, took those off .... and someone convinced me to just do a commentary myself. So hey.

SavageHedgehog

The Thief and the Cobbler is being released on DVD in the UK in February, but I presume it's the standard basterdised version, unless anyone knows any better?

And while it's Christmas I really recommend Williams' Ziggy's Gift special. Don't let the fact that it's based on a cute but unexceptional comic strip put you off, it's one special that's really quite, well, special. Sentimental sure, but not schmaltzy or hokey. The AV Club recently put up a nice article on it.

Bad Ambassador

According to the BBFC's recent listing, yes, it's the "Arabian Knight" shitey version.

gatchamandave

I recall the 1991 trailer being in front of Predator 2 as well. It was incredible and there was a definite buzz in the whole audience of teenagers that this was something they wanted to see- post cinema discussion among my chums was that P2 was ok, but that animated movie looked 'brilliant'. Then, nothing.

Stupid studios, it would have been out just as the likes of Akira was educating us to understand animation's potential to be more than singing animals and limited plots and characters. I wonder what the genre would have become if this had had a proper release and been a hit?

Wasn't there a chap on the 'Worst jobs you ever had' in General Bullshit a few years back who worked as a background artist on this when Williams still had control, and it drove him bananas ?

Santa's Boyfriend

I hear that there has been talk occasionally about finishing the film with Williams in charge (possibly coming from the Pixar head honcho after he joined the board at Disney), but Williams wants nothing to do with it.  I can understand - 25 years working on a project only to have it butchered at the last moment by an impatient studio who didn't know what they had, it's a very painful thing to happen to anyone.  The only way to deal with that would be to wash your hands of it.

It's a shame, I hope someone does put the money in to finish it properly one day.

SavageHedgehog

I have no doubt it will be completed one day, but sadly it seems like it will be after Williams dies (which will raise moral questions in additon to being sad for the obvious reasons)

tygerbug

  Williams isn't the real problem, but for reasons of his own sanity [and legal reasons as well, I believe] he's distanced himself from the film that consumed so much of his life. There are people at Disney who support the film, but the culture at Disney in general would probably never allow a restoration to occur.

   By the way, there's good news on the Thief and the Cobbler front on my end .... a pretty good PAL VHS of the original workprint has turned up, taped by an animator at the time. A bit of 35mm footage and a few more odds and ends have also come to light. So there will be a Recobbled Cut Mark 4 restoration, with all sorts of surprises and improvements. I'm looking for very good video restorationists [I've already got one], and people can email me at gilchristgarrett at gmail.com or visit orangecow.org/board or the Recobbled Cut group on Facebook.

madhair60

This is fascinating, I'll be sure to check it out when I get home.

Santa's Boyfriend

That's great news Tygerbug, keep us informed!  (This is probably a silly question, but do you think there could be any possibility of a HD version at some point?)

tygerbug

A film print of the released movie would have to turn up to make that possible. Right now most of the elements are nowhere near HD quality.

Jake Thingray

Tygerbug, well done and thank you. The proper version was/is effectively the last film of Kenneth Williams; there's a mention in the Diaries of his seeing some of the footage, alas some of the voice cast were already dead, even then.