Author Topic: Which Waits?  (Read 4732 times)

HappyTree

  • Diz <3
Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #60 on: July 16, 2010, 01:45:25 PM »
Well to my ears that "Laura" song sounds like a monkey wiping its arse with a banjo. Perhaps it is quite challenging to make a guitar produce so many dissonant notes at the same time but I don't see why you'd want to.

NoSleep

  • Me and the hedgehog, we bursting the tyres all day
    • Space Is The Place
Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #61 on: July 16, 2010, 02:17:56 PM »
Well to my ears that "Laura" song sounds like a monkey wiping its arse with a banjo. Perhaps it is quite challenging to make a guitar produce so many dissonant notes at the same time but I don't see why you'd want to.

You'd be better off saying nothing at all. What you say is reactionary and complacent.
The reason artists like Derek Bailey, or perhaps a better example would be Sun Ra*, make music that takes a bit of thought and engagement to listen to is because they're trying say that nothing should be taken for granted. As Sun Ra put it; the unknown is where we should be headed, because that's where all potential lies, and there are still things we need that we have yet to learn. The search for new ways to express oneself and development of new art forms is a creative reflection of that journey toward the unknown. That hurt in your ears is the birth pangs of the unknown.

There's no lack of skill in the mentioned performance, so why not just say you haven't got the time to be bothered with it, rather than make ignorant statements?

*NoSleep mentions Sun Ra, at last.

HappyTree

  • Diz <3
Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #62 on: July 16, 2010, 02:26:02 PM »
"Well I'm glad you see its artistic merit. It's just not my bag, daddio."

I can say what I think of it if I want. I don't need your permission.

Treguard of Dunshelm

  • him nyam parrot batty
Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #63 on: July 16, 2010, 02:29:57 PM »
But you just plainly said "that's not a performance", which it patently is, and "Bailey's not expressing anything there", which is meaningless as a statement, particularly if what you meant was, "I don't get it".

It's not a performance, any more than the editing I did in Reaper last night was. It's not challenging, it requires no effort to understand, in fact it's lazy, because it can't possibly hurt you. He's not expressing anything, because there is no content.

Perhaps it would help if you explained what you think he was expressing?

As Sun Ra put it; the unknown is where we should be headed, because that's where all potential lies, and there are still things we need that we have yet to learn. The search for new ways to express oneself and development of new art forms is a creative reflection of that journey toward the unknown.

"A minute correction of the essential is more important than a hundred new accessories" - Raoul Vaneigem.

It's clear we have wildly differing aesthetics, which is perhaps why I'm unable to get my point across to you - or maybe I'm just a bad communicator!

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That hurt in your ears is the birth pangs of the unknown.

I wish it did hurt my ears, a la Throbbing Gristle or My Bloody Valentine, but no. I don't think he's transcended or broken with tradition at all, he's just working in a less well known tradition, with antecedents going back to Dada at least.

NoSleep

  • Me and the hedgehog, we bursting the tyres all day
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Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #64 on: July 16, 2010, 03:00:07 PM »
It's not a performance, any more than the editing I did in Reaper last night was. It's not challenging, it requires no effort to understand, in fact it's lazy, because it can't possibly hurt you. He's not expressing anything, because there is no content.

You're stating that objectively? I would say there's a laziness in not seeing the music in it. No problem in that (as long as you say "I don't get it"), but objectively Derek Bailey is a highly trained musician whose musicianship has led him to play with some of the finest players in the world (they obviously get it).

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Perhaps it would help if you explained what you think he was expressing?

Well, I think you're right in saying Derek Bailey is developing (from) an existing tradition; that's what I understand he did from his explanations about the development of Free Improvisation from the Free Jazz he was initially playing. What do you want me to say? I don't get a literal message from what he plays, but then, how much music is programmatic like that? There are voicings in there to latch onto, that (like all/most music, I think) recall the human voice; perhaps moreso than other musics it follows speech patterns (the first music, I think); which brings us back to Harry Partch, who created new instruments that "talked" rather than sung. Yeah: Derek makes his guitar talk (and cough, and spit).

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"A minute correction of the essential is more important than a hundred new accessories" - Raoul Vaneigem.
What is the essential in this respect? The necessary? Is this reform versus revolution? Who's to say we know of all that is essential?

NoSleep

  • Me and the hedgehog, we bursting the tyres all day
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Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #65 on: July 16, 2010, 03:10:14 PM »
"Don't start from the good old things, but from the bad new ones" - Bertolt Brecht (Waits does a bit of Brecht, doesn't he?)

Why I Hate Tables

  • Papa won't leave you Henry.
Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #66 on: July 16, 2010, 06:40:55 PM »
"Don't start from the good old things, but from the bad new ones" - Bertolt Brecht (Waits does a bit of Brecht, doesn't he?)
Indeed he does, there's a cover of What Keep Mankind Alive on the Bastards disc of Orphans.
I can't really see how it'd be too hard for a Waits fan to get into Derek Bailey's stuff. I did some further listening last night, and at times I was reminded of Marc Ribot's guitar playing. As some cursory Google research shows that he cites him as an influence and wrote the liner notes for a Derek Bailey release, it makes sense. The spluttering guitar solo that sounds a bit like a mattress exploding violently on Clap Hands off Rain Dogs in particular.

Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #67 on: July 16, 2010, 06:57:37 PM »
Here's a slice of entry-level Derek Bailey. The opening track, Laura, from the Ballads album. Perhaps, in seeing how he deconstructs a composition so deftly, it makes it easier to see what he's looking for in his improvisations. Of course it isn't just scratching; in fact Derek manages to utilise the full range of sound possibilities from a guitar; in that respect, perhaps, the most articulate guitarist there's been.


You see, that is fantastic (laura). The difference between that and the video I posted is that in this he seems focused and active, so inventive. I'll definately be checking that album out. The playing for friends video seems like him going through the motions. Some of the stuff he does in it like the series of harmonics in a random order he plays reminds me of what I do noodling away on a guitar without any thought though I can't really play guitar. In the video I can see and hear that he is a fantastic musician and has great technique, but he's playing something that sounds a bit meek and half arsed. The atmosphere is really cosy, and for all the talk about him not being influenced by his audience It certainly sounds like he is.

I am starting to notice little things he does which mark out his playing as his own, which is quite a nice moment when starting out hearing a musician with a massive back catalogue.

All the bollocks about 'thats not music!' and 'he's not expressing anything' is balls.

Even if his playing is poor that doesn't stop it being music, nor being expressive. Expressing a lack of interest and carefree attitude is still expression.

I'm sure part of the nature of free improv is that sometimes it's going to be (to the listner) mindblowing and sometimes it's going to be shit.

NoSleep

  • Me and the hedgehog, we bursting the tyres all day
    • Space Is The Place
Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #68 on: July 16, 2010, 08:28:10 PM »
I can't really see how it'd be too hard for a Waits fan to get into Derek Bailey's stuff. I did some further listening last night, and at times I was reminded of Marc Ribot's guitar playing. As some cursory Google research shows that he cites him as an influence and wrote the liner notes for a Derek Bailey release, it makes sense. The spluttering guitar solo that sounds a bit like a mattress exploding violently on Clap Hands off Rain Dogs in particular.

I'd say several guitarists in the same circles as Marc Ribot would cite Bailey as an influence: Bill Frisell, Fred Frith, Henry Kaiser. Earlier I mentioned Thurston Moore (who collaborated with Bailey, as have all the above mentioned, apart from Frisell). On top of that I would say Robert Fripp - who employed Jamie Muir fresh from the Music Improvisation Group (featuring Derek Bailey & Evan Parker). John Zorn & Fred Frith did a CD tribute to the duo of Evan Parker & Bailey. Also John McLaughlin was to be seen amongst the audiences in Sheffield, watching Bailey's first band, The Joseph Holbrooke Trio (named after a composer, but actually featuring Bailey, Gavin Bryars & Tony Oxley) and lo; Oxley is the drummer on McLaughlin's first album - Extrapolation. Bailey's biographer, Ben Watson, suggests the photo shown on the back cover of the LP, where we see McLaughlin unusually wearing spectacles and hunched over the guitar looking somewhat like Bailey, is no coincidence.

NoSleep

  • Me and the hedgehog, we bursting the tyres all day
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Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #69 on: July 16, 2010, 08:44:10 PM »
In the video I can see and hear that he is a fantastic musician and has great technique, but he's playing something that sounds a bit meek and half arsed. The atmosphere is really cosy, and for all the talk about him not being influenced by his audience It certainly sounds like he is.

As the title of the film suggests; he's playing for friends on 5th Street in a record shop (in 2001). It's relaxed what he's doing, but that is only one part of a much longer set that's edited so you see him start and end in 9-10 minutes. It never gets too intense, but I hope I'm in as good health and spirits at the age of 71. Before his death in 2005 he developed carpal tunnel syndrome and was unable to hold a pick, but it didn't stop him recording an album (his last) monitoring the progress of the disease (Carpal Tunnel - on John Zorn's Tzadik label - as is Ballads).

Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #70 on: July 16, 2010, 09:53:40 PM »
Nosleep has some serious knowledge!

I'll definately be checking out some of the stuff you mentioned.

NoSleep

  • Me and the hedgehog, we bursting the tyres all day
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Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #71 on: July 16, 2010, 10:41:29 PM »
Almost forgot to mention "folk" (actually "American Primitive") guitarist John Fahey was a fan; his own later music moved away from composition into free improvisation. He even released an album by Derek Bailey (accompaniments to Japanese dancer Min Tanaka) on his own label - Revenant Records.
Then there's the collaboration with Pat Metheny (and two drummers!) - "The Sign Of 4"; Arcana (with Tony Williams & Bill Laswell) - The Last Wave; Mirakle (!) with Jamaaladeen Tacuma & Calvin Weston (Free Funk!).

Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #72 on: July 17, 2010, 01:56:55 AM »
Big fan of Fahey, love his later stuff, I didn't realise it counted as free improvisation stuff.  Two drummers, and tony williams both sound very interesting. And free funk sounds utterly demented.

Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #73 on: July 17, 2010, 02:18:09 AM »
I just listened to 'explanation and thanks' from 'carpal tunnel'. I think it's the best example I can think of where Bailey really sounds like Waits, or maybe even Mark E smith. The music and the voice definately relate to each other and there are all sorts of interesting things going on. The process of him trying to regain his technique accompanied by his speech sounds amazing. It seems like you can hear him experimenting and testing himself as he plays and talks.

NoSleep

  • Me and the hedgehog, we bursting the tyres all day
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Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #74 on: July 17, 2010, 05:36:29 AM »
Big fan of Fahey, love his later stuff, I didn't realise it counted as free improvisation stuff.

It was one of several new tendencies that emerged in his later music, which included confounding the expectations of fans of his earlier work.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 08:01:45 AM by NoSleep »

kalowski

  • Maclunkey
Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #75 on: June 07, 2021, 07:00:02 PM »
Slightly behind that is The Black Rider, which never seems to get mentioned ever. I think it's magnificent, and would have loved to have seen the stage production. Blue Valentines is my favourite "pre-weird" album of his, the title track in particular.

Has anyone ever seen him live? I'm extremely jealous of you if you have. Also, are there any female Waits fans out there as I've never met one?
Time to show off.
I saw The Black Rider at the Barbican around 2005. Marianne Faithful was Pegleg, the devil. She was the weak link, the rest was amazing.
And then I saw Tom Waits in Edinburgh 2007, which was magnificent from start to finish.

kalowski

  • Maclunkey
Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #76 on: June 07, 2021, 07:02:47 PM »
Beefheart isn't jazz; he started out as a blues vocalist/harmonica player (Muddy Waters considered him a peer) and took it from there.
Yes
 His first single was a No Diddley cover wasn't it? Diddy Wah Diddy.

Brundle-Fly

  • "Why don't you do something to help me?"
Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #77 on: June 07, 2021, 08:20:05 PM »
An eleven-year bump? Tom Waits for no man, eh?

kalowski

  • Maclunkey
Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #78 on: June 07, 2021, 08:27:58 PM »
An eleven-year bump? Tom Waits for no man, eh?
Blame whoever linked back to it.

Brundle-Fly

  • "Why don't you do something to help me?"
Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #79 on: June 07, 2021, 08:35:10 PM »
Blame whoever linked back to it.

I'll raise ya! I saw Tom in 1987 at the Hammersmith Odeon on his Frank's Wild Years tour. I had a spare ticket because my then gf had dumped me a week before. Got drunk and cried a lot that night.

kalowski

  • Maclunkey
Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #80 on: June 07, 2021, 10:10:08 PM »
I'll raise ya! I saw Tom in 1987 at the Hammersmith Odeon on his Frank's Wild Years tour. I had a spare ticket because my then gf had dumped me a week before. Got drunk and cried a lot that night.
Aw, hats off. Would have loved that one.

Johnboy

  • I had too much to dream last night
Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #81 on: June 08, 2021, 01:17:13 PM »
I really like Tom Waits, but my sister really really likes him.

Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #82 on: June 08, 2021, 08:04:03 PM »
Haha, the 11 year bump caused me to read some old posts of mine, I think my views have softened quite a bit on Bailey and Beefheart since then, particularly Beefheart gets a bit of a kicking. I enjoy much of what I described as his later 'tedious blues' stuff now.

xxxx xxx x xxx

  • Can we have a quick burn, sir?
Re: Which Waits?
« Reply #83 on: June 09, 2021, 08:06:55 AM »
Haha, the 11 year bump caused me to read some old posts of mine, I think my views have softened quite a bit on Bailey and Beefheart since then, particularly Beefheart gets a bit of a kicking. I enjoy much of what I described as his later 'tedious blues' stuff now.

No excuse, you’re banned from international matches pending an investigation.