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"Cheggersgate"

Started by Utter Shit, July 19, 2010, 04:52:55 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Lfbarfe

Quote from: Gulftastic on July 19, 2010, 05:45:29 PM
And I'm fairly certain 'Viz' beat you both to it, using it a few years before that.

He used it himself on The Danny Baker Show (the BBC1 chat show) in 1994 or 1995.

thepuffpastryhangman

They should just make some more jokes up.

Reminds of the Clooney clothing case from last week. Folks claiming they'd got the rights to make Clooney togs. I thought whoever pulled it must've thought no one would notice, or no one who knew Clooney anyway, and no one else would care. 'As if Mr Clooney is looking on our High Street'.
They had absolutely no understanding of the world they were attempting crime in. Chegwin sounds the same.

Isn't the problem the fact that it makes the comics themselves look like plagiarists? I think it was Gary Delaney who said (on Twitter) that he didn't mind people passing round the stuff he churns out on Twitter but he prefers it if people didn't post material from his club set because if something is widely passed around, anyone going to see him could end up thinking "Well, I've heard that one before, he must've nicked it".

Ignatius_S

Quote from: waste of chops on July 20, 2010, 08:28:07 AM
Isn't the problem the fact that it makes the comics themselves look like plagiarists? I think it was Gary Delaney who said (on Twitter) that he didn't mind people passing round the stuff he churns out on Twitter but he prefers it if people didn't post material from his club set because if something is widely passed around, anyone going to see him could end up thinking "Well, I've heard that one before, he must've nicked it".
I very much agree with that being a major issue. The was a good documentary about the folk scene in the Seventies presented by Dave Spikey on the radio and more than a few performers said exactly it... it wasn't just that you had been ripped off, but you were also made to look like the thief.

In this case, I suppose once Chegwin that they jokes could be further passed on, but would the average person following Chegwin on Twitter be likely to go and see one of the comedians, who have been ripped off? In any case, if I went to see someone like Milton Jones and realised he told a joke that Chegwin had tweeted, I think I would have a pretty good idea who had come up with the joke in the first place.

her?

Quote from: eluc55 on July 19, 2010, 11:43:06 PM
My point is that the best material and the sort of thing that defines a good comic is unique, personnal and an integral part of a character, story, concept or performance. It's context that makes a good joke.

Nonsense. Tim Vine is a "good comic". He tells "good jokes". There's no concept or story to his stand-up. Same applies to a number of great gag-meisters.

Regarding Chegwin, I think what he's doing stinks. A number of people have told me to follow him as they believed he was coming up with the gags himself. Taking credit for other people's work is not ok with me. He's still claiming that most of the jokes are his but I only had to scroll down a couple of tweets to find a Milton Jones original.

Little Hoover

Even a Tim Vine joke is better when told by him in one of his sets though.

her?

Agreed. But you could easily turn most of his jokes into amusing tweets. Vine has a talent for writing very funny one-liners and whilst the barrage of gags you get at his live show is arguably the most enjoyable way to experience them, his jokes still work as good stand-alone gags.

eluc55

Quote from: her? on July 20, 2010, 02:17:34 PM
Nonsense. Tim Vine is a "good comic". He tells "good jokes". There's no concept or story to his stand-up. Same applies to a number of great gag-meisters.

Fair enough. I disagree. I don't really like comedians who just string a row of unrelated gags together; at least not as much stand ups who work them into a more "ambitious" routine.   

That said, I did acknowledge there are exceptions in my comments above. Off the top of my head, Jackie Mason and Steve Wright I really enjoy in short bursts. But again, I'd prefer something where the jokes are worked into something more ambitious. A string of jokes is so inpersonnel. I can get that from an email (or twitter).

All this is missing the point anyway. My main argument was that mainstream comedians wouldn't chase down everyday "norms" on twitter passing on their jokes, and really a z-list nobody like Chegwin, whose already seen as an old-school laughign stock is hardly any more of a threat to them. It just seems petty; or worse, like cheap point scoring, flouncing about throwing their weight around in front of a bunch of sycophantic followers cheering them on.   

EDIT: Even Jackie Mason and Steve Wright rely heavily on their stage presense. It's not just the gag that makes you laugh. It's the whole package. 

Johnny Townmouse

"I used to go to the circus to see the fat tattooed lady - now they're everywhere"

I'm not sure if that is an original Cheggers or not, but I was incapable of not cracking a smile at this admittedly rather feeble joke.

mycroft

Quote from: Johnny Townmouse on July 20, 2010, 04:47:21 PM
"I used to go to the circus to see the fat tattooed lady - now they're everywhere"

Credit to Cheggers - he must be the first person in history to rip off a gag from Joan Collins. She did that in an interview in something like the Metro a couple of years back.

Johnny Townmouse

Quote from: mycroft on July 20, 2010, 06:37:46 PM
Credit to Cheggers - he must be the first person in history to rip off a gag from Joan Collins. She did that in an interview in something like the Metro a couple of years back.

Thank you. I hope that puts things into perspective for Ed Byrne.

j_u_d_a_s

Quote from: eluc55 on July 20, 2010, 03:10:15 PM
Fair enough. I disagree. I don't really like comedians who just string a row of unrelated gags together; at least not as much stand ups who work them into a more "ambitious" routine.

If you could state that before making sweeping generalisations as if they were stone cold law, then that would be great thanks.

Quote
All this is missing the point anyway. My main argument was that mainstream comedians wouldn't chase down everyday "norms" on twitter passing on their jokes, and really a z-list nobody like Chegwin, whose already seen as an old-school laughign stock is hardly any more of a threat to them. It just seems petty; or worse, like cheap point scoring, flouncing about throwing their weight around in front of a bunch of sycophantic followers cheering them on.   

EDIT: Even Jackie Mason and Steve Wright rely heavily on their stage presense. It's not just the gag that makes you laugh. It's the whole package.

And speaking of missing the point, wouldn't someone like Chegwin posting jokes without credit be seen as a bigger threat to a comics career than a non-celeb doing the same? No matter how z-list Chegwin is, he still commands a decent sized following. Certainly larger than the amount of people who've heard of Milton Jones and Lee Mack despite both of them having worked the circuit and written their own material for over a decade. So Cheggers having his group of followers blindly accepting that Cheggers has written their material is detrimental to their careers.

Look, I understand you have some weird grudge against twitter but spouting your opinion without bothering to read the basic facts makes you look like a moron.

Tiny Poster

Did we have a thread on here about the Sickipedia dishonesty? A lot of comics stopped posting gags to Twitter after that.

chocolateboy

#43
Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on July 20, 2010, 08:19:00 PM
Look, I understand you have some weird grudge against twitter

What a weird word to use! Isn't everyone's reaction to Twitter weird? Mine certainly is.

If someone had pitched Twitter to me just a few years ago, and asked me to gauge people's reactions to it based on their pre-Twitter track record, the following would all have been shoo-ins:


  • Ricky Gervais: Oh, Christ. He'll probably love it! It's the perfect way for the man-whose-ego-expanded to let out his rhythmical farts of Flanimal Nitrate.
  • Stephen Fry: Probably written a book and done a ten-part series already about how this dumbed-down, 140-character curse is destroying Western civilization! I imagine much shuddering, and Wildean dispensing of "Oh, no, dear boy! Perfectly wretched!"
  • Neil Bomb'd: Haha! Nice one! From - no, lemme guess - his iPhone, right?!
  • Lee Mack and Steven Wright: I dunno. Could be a good outlet for the stuff they come up with that isn't good enough to use on stage...
  • Charlie Brooker: He'll rant amusingly about how it represents the worst thing in the universe (this week). Are all the people on this list gonna be really obviously pro/anti?

In case you don't know: all of these predictions were/are wrong. Wee-yud!


j_u_d_a_s

Needlessly cunty of me. Ignore.

eluc55

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on July 20, 2010, 08:19:00 PM
If you could state that before making sweeping generalisations as if they were stone cold law, then that would be great thanks.

Urgh, cant believe I have to do this here of all places:

Anything stated on here is opinion. I'm not going to write "IMO" before every post. Everything I have written in this thread is clearly only my opinion, not law. I've happily clarified my position with each successive post. Therefore, when I said on page one that "the best jokes are ones told in context", its common sense to infer that its an opinion

Quote
Look, I understand you have some weird grudge against twitter but spouting your opinion without bothering to read the basic facts makes you look like a moron.

I have no grudge against twitter, and on this thread of all places you cant accuse me of that. With the exception of one comment in my first post (about it's effect on comedians) none of my comments have been  twitter itself, or the problems I have with it. They've all related to the comedians involved, not the format. After all, Twitters not to blame for this; those individuals are (Chegwin included now).

re: checking facts, there are none to check, certainly none you've highlighted. I could guess he had a large following and that there would be some cross over, I never said anything different; it doesn't change my arguments one jot. They all still stand, and would do regardless of how big his following was. It's you that assumed I meant he had a small following.

Finally, I really don't see why you have to start throwing names about, calling me a "moron". This is a forum for discussion; if you disagree with my opinion, then in the interests of making for an interesting and civil debate and to avoid it getting sidetracked by personality's that no-one gives two fucks about, try engage with the points, rather than call people names.   

j_u_d_a_s

Quote from: eluc55 on July 21, 2010, 12:18:52 AM
Urgh, cant believe I have to do this here of all places:

I know, being asked to justify your position when questioned is a bit of a drag.

Quote
Anything stated on here is opinion. I'm not going to write "IMO" before every post. Everything I have written in this thread is clearly only my opinion, not law. I've happily clarified my position with each successive post. Therefore, when I said on page one that "the best jokes are ones told in context", its common sense to infer that its an opinion

So in other words you've been misunderstood due to a failure to communicate clearly then.

Quote
I have no grudge against twitter, and on this thread of all places you cant accuse me of that. With the exception of one comment in my first post (about it's effect on comedians) none of my comments have been  twitter itself, or the problems I have with it. They've all related to the comedians involved, not the format. After all, Twitters not to blame for this; those individuals are (Chegwin included now).

I'm curious as to what exactly you think twitter has done to comedians. Certainly it's become a crutch for Graham Linehan's fragile ego, and even national treasuretm Stephen Fry has been known to be a bit touchy but I don't see how Ed Byrne and Simon Evans taking Chegwin to task over repeating gags from working comedians is them showing off to their fanbase. An idea you've said you're against but so far haven't shown how that applies to this situation.

Quote
re: checking facts, there are none to check, certainly none you've highlighted. I could guess he had a large following and that there would be some cross over, I never said anything different; it doesn't change my arguments one jot. They all still stand, and would do regardless of how big his following was. It's you that assumed I meant he had a small following.

"I haven't read the jokes he's passed on"

That may be a good place to start.

"The fact a load of hacks have jumped on him, as if him posting them on Twitter makes them somehow equivalent to "paid material", is far more revealing."

And here we have the crux of the problem. You making olympic level leaps of assumption and passing off your own opinion as fact. Or at the very least using language that makes it look that way no matter what your intentions are. Then you continue this train of thought with...

"Christ, Twitter - or more specifically the proximity to their own fans - really has brought out the very worst in British comedians hasn't it? It's like they didn't know about the internet until a year or two ago."

Again, I really don't know why you feel the need to say this and not at least back it up with some quotes or, y'know, facts.

Quote
Finally, I really don't see why you have to start throwing names about, calling me a "moron". This is a forum for discussion; if you disagree with my opinion, then in the interests of making for an interesting and civil debate and to avoid it getting sidetracked by personality's that no-one gives two fucks about, try engage with the points, rather than call people names.

And here we have the tone argument. I'll indulge it this time and remind you that you've been coming across more than a little passive aggressively yourself in this thread and with this reply have failed to engage the point I've laid out which I will now repeat for you in bold so you can't ignore it again.

Cheggers having his group of followers blindly accepting that Cheggers has written other comics material is detrimental to their careers.


But to answer some of the other points you've made in this thread...

"The fact that any old hack can tell your jokes is evidence enough that your act ain't worth fook in the first place. Write something personal, not just a string of indistinguishable gags."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F3Kqgzbhm0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc8RK-iv8yw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWH5XubGKLA

I'm amazed that you even feel like gag merchants as seen above are less valid than long-form comedians, fair enough if its not your cup of tea but to suggest they're not worth fook in the first place? Then I'm afraid you are quite clearly incorrect. Milton Jones in particular is able to craft whole episodes of his radio series around his gags wonderfully.

The above comics make their living from their one liners though. To have their material passed off without credit can be harmful, one act I know has had to stop tweeting one liners because they kept on being passed off on sikipedia and he's nowhere near the level of recognition as Tim Vine even. It cheapens the work they put into their writing and lessens the chance they'll be asked to work professionally if every Tom, Dick and Keith repeats their gags endlessly. This is what the whole thing has ALWAYS been about, it's not Ed Byrne or Simon Evans showboating for their twitter followers, it's just common courtesy that professional entertainers should show one another. No matter how "worthless" you judge an act to be.

eluc55

#47
Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on July 21, 2010, 03:35:27 AM
I know, being asked to justify your position when questioned is a bit of a drag.

I have no problem with justifying my position. I've done so numerous times already.

QuoteSo in other words you've been misunderstood due to a failure to communicate clearly then.

No. I simply don't expect to have to clarify that something is my opinion on this comedy forum. The argument I made above (about it obviously being opinion) has been made here hundreds of times. It's common sense to realise things written here are opinion; every subject we're discussing in comedy chat is subjective. No one else has written "In my opinion" before there posts; its redundant. A basic assumption of any subjective debate.

QuoteI'm curious as to what exactly you think twitter has done to comedians. Certainly it's become a crutch for Graham Linehan's fragile ego, and even national treasuretm Stephen Fry has been known to be a bit touchy but I don't see how Ed Byrne and Simon Evans taking Chegwin to task over repeating gags from working comedians is them showing off to their fanbase. An idea you've said you're against but so far haven't shown how that applies to this situation.

Well, off the top of my head; Graham Linehan, Stephen Fry, Marcus Brigstock, Alan Davis, Charlie Brooker, as well as a number of comedians who have sourced material from their followers (see the relevant threads) and now the handful involved in this. That's a surprisingly large number already, I'm sure there are more... and as I made explicitly clear in one of my first posts, its likely the proximity to their fans thats had an effect. To be clear, there's not one specific effect and I can't list all the effects it seems to have had on them (I'm at work and shouldn't even be on the net); in any case, there are numerous threads already on this. Look up any of the recent twitter threads about Graham Linehan, Stephen Fry, Marcus Brigstock, Alan Davis, you'll see how its influenced them. Obviously its not twitter's fault. It's their fault for letting the fan relationship alter their work (in the cases where it has). In some cases its just revealed or allowed them to indulge their precious side. 


Quote"I haven't read the jokes he's passed on"

That may be a good place to start.

What difference does it make? My point will stand regardless, as its not about specific jokes, rather the attitude. The only exception would be if it turns out he's passed on whole routines as his own.


Quote"The fact a load of hacks have jumped on him, as if him posting them on Twitter makes them somehow equivalent to "paid material", is far more revealing."

And here we have the crux of the problem. You making olympic level leaps of assumption and passing off your own opinion as fact. Or at the very least using language that makes it look that way no matter what your intentions are. Then you continue this train of thought with...

"Christ, Twitter - or more specifically the proximity to their own fans - really has brought out the very worst in British comedians hasn't it? It's like they didn't know about the internet until a year or two ago."

Again, I really don't know why you feel the need to say this and not at least back it up with some quotes or, y'know, facts.

Well, again, this has all been covered on this forum many times before. See recent threads on any of the comedians listed above. Graham Linehan, Stephen Fry, Marcus Brigstock, Alan Davis, Charlie Brooker, as well as a number of comedians who have sourced material from their followers (see the other threads) and now the handful involved in this.

Plus there's the whole "pretending to be friends so they can sell stuff more succesfully", and the whole "surrounding themselves with sycophancy" angle that can be applied more generally to most of the Celebs using twitter.


Quote
And here we have the tone argument. I'll indulge it this time and remind you that you've been coming across more than a little passive aggressively yourself in this thread

I've not been passive aggressive towards any posters at all. With exception of you who called me a moron first. And lo and behold its sidetracked the discussion; I'm happy to continue if it s kept civil, but not otherwise.


Quoteand with this reply have failed to engage the point I've laid out which I will now repeat for you in bold so you can't ignore it again.

Cheggers having his group of followers blindly accepting that Cheggers has written other comics material is detrimental to their careers.

I've already answered it. You just disagree. But to be clear: I've suggested numerous reasons why a few jokes from each comedian shouldn't matter. In principle, it's no different from emails sent to thousands of people full of gags; they've been passed around for years. I don't approve of stealing jokes, and if it was a mainstream comedian I might think slightly differently. But Chegwin isn't a threat - most people know already that he's a lazy hack - and a few jokes listed shouldn't impact an individual comedian (unless they all belong to the same one).


QuoteBut to answer some of the other points you've made in this thread...

"The fact that any old hack can tell your jokes is evidence enough that your act ain't worth fook in the first place. Write something personal, not just a string of indistinguishable gags."

I'm amazed that you even feel like gag merchants as seen above are less valid than long-form comedians, fair enough if its not your cup of tea but to suggest they're not worth fook in the first place? Then I'm afraid you are quite clearly incorrect. Milton Jones in particular is able to craft whole episodes of his radio series around his gags wonderfully.

The above comics make their living from their one liners though. To have their material passed off without credit can be harmful, one act I know has had to stop tweeting one liners because they kept on being passed off on sikipedia and he's nowhere near the level of recognition as Tim Vine even. It cheapens the work they put into their writing and lessens the chance they'll be asked to work professionally if every Tom, Dick and Keith repeats their gags endlessly. This is what the whole thing has ALWAYS been about, it's not Ed Byrne or Simon Evans showboating for their twitter followers, it's just common courtesy that professional entertainers should show one another. No matter how "worthless" you judge an act to be.

What more can I say: For me, a string of gags isn't as impressive as a densely packed "routine" (I cant think of a more appropriote word, sorry). I've acknowledged there are a few exceptions, but even then I prefer something more substantial.

Jokes being passed on is the way of the internet, sadly. No point fighting it, at least not if its only a few jokes per comedian. I just think its telling that it was Keith Chegwin they've pulled up for this, rather than a mainstream comedian, or "normal person". The number of followers is irrelevent. Joke emails get sent to hundreds of people certainly. Websites full of jokes are read by hundreds. Comedians survive by being a good act, not just because of individual jokes. 

Apologies for any spelling/grammatical errors. Typed in a  hurry.

jumpedship

 Cheggers was pulled up for it in an extremely polite way. His response was to block Simon Evans and complain about "jealous" comedians. His attitude seems to be that as he is more successful and popular than said comedians , he doesn't owe them anything.

As for sycophantic followers , the majority of people commenting on twitter have been Chegwin fans in thrall to his medium sized level of fame .

It seems odd that someone who has admitted not to have followed the "twitstorm" sees fit to attack the herd mentality of comics.

  Keith Chegwin wasnt asked to stop nicking jokes , he was merely politely asked to credit them. The fact that he not only refused , but made stupid claims about most working comics nicking jokes off him makes him look ungenerous and deluded.

mini goatbix

I just had a look at Chegwin's twitter account. It looks like he only posts one line jokes and a lot of them, no general chatter like most people on twitter seem to. His feed looks more like a routine than an attempt to connect with other people, so presumably he does it to get noticed with a view to getting work. So if that's true, it is wrong for him to advance his career using the work of others without acknowledging them.


Jemble Fred

Quote from: mini goatbix on July 21, 2010, 11:42:18 AM
presumably he does it to get noticed with a view to getting work.

But he's Keith Chegwin! How does that work? Who's going to think "Wow, who's this young up-and-coming newbie with so many great gags, I must give him a chance in showbiz!" Surely anyone who hires Cheggers knows what they're getting, there's no way his Twitter feed is connected to "getting noticed" for work. Ego-boosting adoration from fans, yes.

This whole thing would be more interesting if some of the gags he stole were at least quite good.

koeman

I don't plug or advertise, he tweets, next to his smiling face above a link to a cheggersbingo website.

koeman

I've just had a joke nicked on Twitter! Someone's just tweeted one of my tweets (without any accreditation, I might add), his mate asked him where he got it and he reckoned he's just had it texted to him. I only tweeted it half an hour ago. Sod all this Chegwin furore, I'm very chuffed.

QuoteRT @thekeithchegwin I bent over and I vomited into the gaping anus of Christ. Wey hey! X

koeman

Hang on a minute, the fucker who did my tweet has now had it retweeted more times than I have. I'm changed my mind again, it's a chuffing disgrace.

Hawksbee and Jacobs have got Dan Antopolski on later to talk about the Cheggers affair. Amazing how much Twitter dictates the content of other media nowadays.

Ginyard

Quote from: mycroft on July 20, 2010, 06:37:46 PM
Credit to Cheggers - he must be the first person in history to rip off a gag from Joan Collins.

I'm getting some crazy-arsed BDSM feedback in my brain reading that.

Its Cheggers. Why the fuss?

Guy

Quote from: koeman on July 21, 2010, 01:23:10 PMHawksbee and Jacobs have got Dan Antopolski on later to talk about the Cheggers affair. AmazingDepressing how much Twitter dictates the content of other media nowadays.

Fixed...

Quote from: koeman on July 21, 2010, 01:23:10 PM
Hang on a minute, the fucker who did my tweet has now had it retweeted more times than I have. I'm changed my mind again, it's a chuffing disgrace.

How did you see someone had copied your tweet?

koeman

I clicked on 'Cillit Bang' which was trending, and there was my gag done by someone else, word for word except he'd spelt Strepsils differently.

It gave me a lovely glow inside to know I'd done a joke that someone thought was worth  repeating. Doesn't change my thoughts on the Chegwin affair though, as I'm not trying to make a living from my jokes, and the bloke who tweeted my joke was just someone who'd had it texted to them which is fair enough.

vrailaine

nevermind, google solved it.

Any comedian who relies on oneliners has to be fully aware of the problems they face with people spreading their jokes all over the place, not sure what they can do to avoid it asides from try and increase their ability of linking jokes together or creating an effective persona to tell them with.