Darren Aronofsky’s Black Swan

[Neil]

Portman's 'I AM MISERABLE AND OBVIOUSLY MENTALLY UNSTABLE' acting for the entire film, theres no subtlety, it doesn't really develop, it's there from the very start so there's no sense of her descending into madness, she's mad for the whole thing. Also, noone seems to notice her ridiculously miserable face and perhaps ask her if she's alright.

There's plenty of development, and descent. 

She's supposed to be "miserable" from the start - not all films need a defined beginning, middle and end, in terms of the narrative.  Sometimes we can just be plonked into a running story, yet one which is still perfectly self-contained.  You might as well say On The Corner is shit, because we don't hear what they're playing before the record started, yet that's part of the beauty of it - Miles/Teo didn't wait.

While some of it is very obvious, there are plenty of layers of subtlety, too.  Her relationship with her mother is a perfect example, and we must also look at how she relates to everyone else. 

She starts off unhappy, because she is.  Her life has been one of misery, and of being driven, and of being obsessed with ballet to the exclusion of everything else.  Unsurpsingly, this makes her unfulfilled, and unhappy.  She's focussed on the part to the exclusion of everything else, and I think the only moment Nina is really happy, is when she is able to lose control through drink and drugs.  This loss of control allows her to take control.  Edit:  And as I think I said, she always needs to take control, to lose control - then she can be in the moment, but she chooses the most destructive way possible, to be like her perfect, imperfect role model.

One of my favourite moments, that I haven't mentioned so far, is when she's auditioning, and Mila Klunis comes in late, ruining her performance.

'Go and warm-up.'
'I'm fine.'

She's not submissive, but more than that, she is reckless.  She jeapordises the audition by turning up late, and then even risks her own health.  It's control again. 

[Paaaaul]

Portman's 'I AM MISERABLE AND OBVIOUSLY MENTALLY UNSTABLE' acting for the entire film, theres no subtlety, it doesn't really develop, it's there from the very start so there's no sense of her descending into madness, she's mad for the whole thing. Also, noone seems to notice her ridiculously miserable face and perhaps ask her if she's alright.

To me, the way she played the character was perfect. Like the lead characters in Carnival Of Souls and Suspiria, two films that I felt greatly influenced Black Swan, she is barely connected with the world she is in, but she is still connected. I didn't get the impression that she gets any madder through the film, just that she connects more with her darker side.

The film is not a verité telling of events. The whole world is filtered through her eyes, so you don't know if anyone asks if she's alright, you only see her subjective view of what is going on. None of the horror events actually happen as far as the other characters are aware, so why should you believe that what you see is the objective truth and that no-one was trying to help her?

[Neil]

The film is not a verité telling of events. The whole world is filtered through her eyes, so you don't know if anyone asks if she's alright, you only see her subjective view of what is going on. None of the horror events actually happen as far as the other characters are aware, so why should you believe that what you see is the objective truth and that no-one was trying to help her?

Yeah, she's a completely unreliable narrator, so it would be totally obvious what was going on, if you did have this kind of start/middle/end progression.  Another moment where this film is subtle, is in not really making that explicit with a voice-over. 

[El Unicornio, mang]

It's made pretty clear from the beginning that she's already mentally unstable. Not so much a portrait of a descent into madness as gradually peeling away the layers to reveal what is already going on in her head. Her mental illness probably started in her teens, or maybe earlier, but we're just seeing these couple of weeks where it all comes to a head. I think it's also a damning indictment of the American health care system, which allows tens of millions of people with mental illness to go untreated because of the ludicrous costs of seeking treatment. A friend of mine works with people with severe mental illness, including schizophrenia, and most of them end up on the streets by middle age because they don't get help, by then it's often too late. From what I know of the condition, Nina is a good example of someone in the mid-stage of paranoid schizophrenia.

[Paaaaul]

Yeah, she's a completely unreliable narrator, so it would be totally obvious what was going on, if you did have this kind of start/middle/end progression.  Another moment where this film is subtle, is in not really making that explicit with a voice-over.

The fact that it's Nina's story in Nina's world is made subtly explicit though, by the fact that she is in every scene.

[Neil]

The fact that it's Nina's story in Nina's world is made subtly explicit though, by the fact that she is in every scene.

Wow!

[Zero Gravitas]

The fact that we're privy to her hallucinations is a better indicator, I do also think you're simply stating what's pretty explicitly presented to the audience as evidence of subtlety here though.

[Paaaaul]

The fact that we're privy to her hallucinations is a better indicator, I do also think you're simply stating what's pretty explicitly presented to the audience as evidence of subtlety here though.

How do you know that she's hallucinating?

You can only accept that all those things were happening in her head once you've realised, from other indicators, that the film's POV is totally subjective.

[Zero Gravitas]

I'm pretty sure the eyes of the painting moving is early on, before the cake scene even.

[El Unicornio, mang]

The painting bit is quite far into the film, well after the cake scene.

[Zero Gravitas]

Just checked...it's the painting she does a double take at after she comes back to the apartment and is looking for her mother directly before the cake scene.

In any case it's her anxious gaze we're experiencing as she scans through the room and does the double take, similarly form the very start we see though her eyes in a similar moment as she stares at the woman on the train.

[Neil]

In any case it's her anxious gaze we're experiencing as she scans through the room and does the double take.

Trench mentioned that the direction reflects her view early on, too, at the very start when she's spinning, I think.  Lovely subtle stuff that is, never managed to put it all together on the first viewing.

[El Unicornio, mang]

Just checked...it's the painting she does a double take at after she comes back to the apartment and is looking for her mother directly before the cake scene.

In any case it's her anxious gaze we're experiencing as she scans through the room and does the double take, similarly form the very start we see though her eyes in a similar moment as she stares at the woman on the train.

Oh, I thought you meant the bit where the

Spoiler alert

paintings are all laughing at her

[close]

[Zero Gravitas]

I don't doubt it's a deliberate touch that we see her dream rather than the first scene being her recollection of it--in that all we see is dreamlike and deals with transformation--I just think it's all there in a very vulgar way.

Oh, I thought you meant the bit where the

Spoiler alert

paintings are all laughing at her

[close]

Yes sorry, the confusion was my fault.

[Paaaaul]

Spoiler alert

As far as I'm concerned, the first scene where you know for sure that she is hallucinating/mad is right at the end when she opens the door to Lily, then lifts the towel up. Her physical pain and endorphins from the Black Swan dance have pulled her out of her dream-world and she sees things clearly for the first time.

It's a common trope in horror films for the protagonist to think they're being watched, or for only the protagonist to be able to see the monster before the monster is revealed in the last act - this film keeps up the illusion that maybe these things are all real and that dark spirits are after her until she realises, as do we,  that she has killed herself, and that the only bogeyman was the darkness in her own head.

If you think you 'got it' before that point, you hadn't. Because that aspect of the story hadn't been revealed before then.
It's only for those last few minutes that you know for sure what you've just watched, and it's only the time while Nina is dying that you see things happening clearly, as she does.

[close]

[Zero Gravitas]

Oh, ok.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

I didn't see anything ambiguous about it. Unlike Videodrome, for example, there was no question of it being real. I enjoyed it to be sure, but it was as subtle as a brick with a willy drawn on it.

[thugler]

She's supposed to be "miserable" from the start - not all films need a defined beginning, middle and end, in terms of the narrative.  Sometimes we can just be plonked into a running story, yet one which is still perfectly self-contained.  You might as well say On The Corner is shit, because we don't hear what they're playing before the record started, yet that's part of the beauty of it - Miles/Teo didn't wait.

On the Corner > Black Swan.

But for the sake of discussion. You seem to be agreeing with me to some extent that she is one note. I found the depths of her madness lose their impact when for the entire film she seems equally miserable. The character of nina is pretty much wrapped up fairly early on, so the second half of the film is just the same miserable girl with a succession of horrible things happening to her, the transformation stuff felt hollow since I never felt that she had transformed very much. Not a bad movie, but not on par with the likes of Suspiria by a long shot. I didn't feel the film had much of an emotional core since I don't see much of a character in Nina beyond her mental illness. It's not that this doesn't make sense in the context of the film, but I think it weakens any connection I am supposed to make with it.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

I'd have to go along with that too. We were told she danced the white swan perfectly, but she still wore the same frightened expression while doing so as she did when she was struggling to be the black swan, which made her anxiety over the latter seem less powerful.

[thugler]

Spoiler alert

As far as I'm concerned, the first scene where you know for sure that she is hallucinating/mad is right at the end when she opens the door to Lily, then lifts the towel up. Her physical pain and endorphins from the Black Swan dance have pulled her out of her dream-world and she sees things clearly for the first time.

It's a common trope in horror films for the protagonist to think they're being watched, or for only the protagonist to be able to see the monster before the monster is revealed in the last act - this film keeps up the illusion that maybe these things are all real and that dark spirits are after her until she realises, as do we,  that she has killed herself, and that the only bogeyman was the darkness in her own head.

If you think you 'got it' before that point, you hadn't. Because that aspect of the story hadn't been revealed before then.
It's only for those last few minutes that you know for sure what you've just watched, and it's only the time while Nina is dying that you see things happening clearly, as she does.

[close]

Spoiler alert

This is rubbish. I was sure she was hallucinating and mentally ill the very first time she saw a doppelganger about 10 minutes in. Why? Because it's OBVIOUS, and has been done in countless horror films, (not to mention fight club) combined with portmans 'I AM OBVIOUSLY MENTALLY ILL AND COMPLETELY MISERABLE ALL OF THE TIME' acting. The film had zero subtlety. I was fairly sure she had stabbed herself at the end since it was obviously the climax of the film and she obviously wasn't going to make it to the end, and it was very similar to the split personality bit in fight club, which is very fresh in peoples minds.

[close]

[Neil]

I'd have to go along with that too. We were told she danced the white swan perfectly, but she still wore the same frightened expression while doing so as she did when she was struggling to be the black swan, which made her anxiety over the latter seem less powerful.

That's because, again, she is obsessed with perfection.  That means she can't rest - one perfect performance isn't enough, they all have to be like that, and she will push, and push to achieve that.  She pushes herself to physical pain and mental collapse.  She tries to empty a stomach with nothing in it.  She rehearses to the point where the pianist gives up, and goes home (was this the Black Swan?  Could have as easily been the White Swan, but I can't remember.)

Remember that the film deals with her inability to truly be in the moment - if she does still look as anxious and worried during the White Swan, then that's excellent, very accurate, and entirely consistent with the narrative.

[thugler]

That's because, again, she is obsessed with perfection.  That means she can't rest - one perfect performance isn't enough, they all have to be like that, and she will push, and push to achieve that.  She pushes herself to physical pain and mental collapse.  She tries to empty a stomach with nothing in it.  She rehearses to the point where the pianist gives up, and goes home (was this the Black Swan?  Could have as easily been the White Swan, but I can't remember.)

Remember that the film deals with her inability to truly be in the moment - if she does still look as anxious and worried during the White Swan, then that's excellent, very accurate, and entirely consistent with the narrative.

I'd agree with this to a certain extent. In the context of the film, it makes sense that she is the same all the way through. The way that at first it seems like maybe she is unhappy due to being worried about whether or not she will get the big part, then she gets the big part and continues to be exactly as unhappy. It's an eternal pursuit of perfection and it makes sense. I still don't think it makes for a satisfying film or performance. The character is played out very quickly and there isn't a lot to her other than the perfection complex (which again, makes sense to be fair).

[El Unicornio, mang]

Have to give kudos to Portman for the effort she put into the role in pre-production. Ballet is ridiculously tough, and she apparently did it for 5 hours a day for six months. You can tell too, every muscle in her body seems to be strained to breaking point under her skin.

[thugler]

Have to give kudos to Portman for the effort she put into the role in pre-production. Ballet is ridiculously tough, and she apparently did it for 5 hours a day for six months. You can tell too, every muscle in her body seems to be strained to breaking point under her skin.

Wish I could work 5 hours a day for millions of dollars...







joking. I though the ballet stuff was very impressive.

[Neil]

I'd agree with this to a certain extent. In the context of the film, it makes sense that she is the same all the way through. The way that at first it seems like maybe she is unhappy due to being worried about whether or not she will get the big part, then she gets the big part and continues to be exactly as unhappy. It's an eternal pursuit of perfection and it makes sense. I still don't think it makes for a satisfying film or performance. The character is played out very quickly and there isn't a lot to her other than the perfection complex (which again, makes sense to be fair).

Yes, and it's all stoked up by her Mother, so it all holds together brilliantly.  Like My Wrongs, it's not going to connect with everyone, and it will do so in different ways, but it's certainly a very accurate reflection of OCD.  I'm wondering again about the relationship with the teacher - he thinks it's perfect, but this won't entirely satisfy her, because she has to be happy with it herself.

However, how much does she look up to him?  Is he the surrogate father that a lot of people look for?  It's hinted at, given the way her Mum feels about him, and the way that reflects her own history.  She must think the older ballerina is perfect for a reason - because he gave her his approval, and she seeks that.  She's looking for a new Mum and Dad, I think.  Must check that out next time.  The part is her love, that much is pretty clear, I think, and her paranoia about it getting stolen from her is another key factor in her continuing to unravel.

I really should have got the 'directed from her point of view' thing - I knew that she knew the guy in the club was only pretending to be interested in ballet, and was checking out her tits.

[thugler]

What did you make of the bit where she is dropped/falls near the end?

I couldn't help saying immediately after she says 'it was perfect!'

'except for the bit where you fell down'.

[El Unicornio, mang]

Wasn't she supposed to fall down though? Swan Lake ends with her drowning herself.

[thugler]

Wasn't she supposed to fall down though? Swan Lake ends with her drowning herself.

No, before that, where the other dancer drops her/she falls and the audience gasps.

[El Unicornio, mang]

Oh yeah, good point

[Neil]

What did you make of the bit where she is dropped/falls near the end?

I couldn't help saying immediately after she says 'it was perfect!'

'except for the bit where you fell down'.

It's a good question.  I must see if trench is up for going to the half-price showings tonight, but what occurs to me now you've mentioned it, is that this is likely to be her trying to embrace imperfection again.  Ryder's character is perfect, yet now imperfect because of the leg injury - this may also be one of the reasons Nina dances to the point where she's hurting herself, to cause injury.  She is filtering everything, including the OCD, through paranoid schizophrenia (again, bit like My Wrongs), and making these very irrational connections and judgements.  As with the theme of control, it's all about trying to grasp perfection and imperfection at the same time.  So, given that line, which I don't remember, I'd say that she's made a very faulty judgement there, which fore-shadows the moment where she has to fall.  She has tried to make the routine like the older ballerina - imperfect, so that it becomes perfect.

All or nothing personalities can find it very hard to have any kind of balance (no pun intended), and so she's struggling to have control/lack of control, perfection/imperfection at the same time, while still staying at extremes, rather than trying to get into the middle.