Spaghetti Westerns as against "real" westerns

[NoSleep]

Spaghetti westerns are very stylised, and the characters are often archetypes (sometimes almost cardboard cutouts). They unfold like a game of chess and the music in the films is hugely important; to the point that Leone would sometimes shoot scenes to the already-prepared music. Not that this was necessary, as we know that Leone's style of cinema is exacting, down to the second; the musical score of Once Upon A Time in America (albeit a non-western) was able to be completed 10 years before filming eventually commenced.

Japanese cinema (notably Kurosawa) is the only thing that comes close. Indeed, it directly inspired the genre (Fistful of Dollars is based on Kurosawa's Yojimbo).

[Egyptian Feast]

I know Zombie Maestro Luci Fulci dabbled with Westerns (as well as anything else that was popular at the time) and I have his 'Four of the apocalypse' on my to view list too.

Anyone caught up with this?

It's pretty good, though it drags in places and is a little overlong. It is pretty damn bleak as well, so it's one to watch in the right mood. The cast is excellent: Tomas Milian, Michael J Pollard, the gorgeous Lynne Frederick and the awesomely named Fabio Testi all do good work.

I've seen quite a few of Fulci's non-horror films (though I haven't caught any of his other westerns yet) and it's definitely one of the best of them. It's not a spaghetti western, so this is completely off-topic, but IMHO his best work is Don't Torture A Duckling, despite the amazingly crappy special effects in the climax.

[Ignatius_S]

The spaghetti ones have their strengths, but mainly they seem to be down to presenting lead characters of consummate cool, be it the Man with No Name, Django, or Sabata. They're a lot of style, but with few exceptions not much substance.

The classics tell tales - at their best - of characters who do have cool, but have character beyond that. Whether High Noon, The Magnificent Seven, Destry Rides Again (comedy Westerns, well done, can pack as much effect as any serious ones)...hell, even John Wayne in The Searchers (if not much else) carries one hell of a charge.

Each have their joys, but with the spaghettis it's generally more a matter of surface. The better old-school Westerns hit more to the heart.

I don't think it's that straightforward to compare the two. However, I do feel to say that Spaghetti Westerns "they seem to be down to presenting lead characters of consummate cool" is a stereotyping. Although one can argue that stereotypes for a reason, this one can't be applied to a whole genre.

For example, in the lead of It Can Be Done, Amigo , we have Bud Spencer who plays a scruffy roughneck, who eschews guns for his fist, the character is funny and admirable in many ways but cool, he is not. In http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060261/ ]Hellbenders[/url], Joseph Cotton plays the principal character, an fanatic ex-confederate general, who refuses to accept the War is over and launches on a bizarre scheme with his sons to gain funds so the South may rise again – there is no Man with No Name, Django, or Sabata. Cotton character is very similar to the villain in Django, but here it's not clear who the villains or heroes are.

When looking at Spaghetti Westerns – and I think this is something mentioned in the recent Cox book – quite a few films have been lost and, perhaps more significantly, a significant number of films only exist in a butchered format. The same prints were often used for one country, then the next one and so one – it wasn't unusual for edits to be made in different countries, so some films today don't exist in their original form.

Also, another problem when people look at American Westerns, is that they forget just how many not so good ones they were. Until 1939 and Stagecoach, for over a decade, Westerns were the preserve of small studios and the majors had lost interest – the films tended to cheap B-Movies that were incredibly formulaic and a principle way of depicting characterisation  was to make the good guys wear white hats and the baddies, black. John Wayne made a lot of Westerns before Stagecoach and these were incredibly representative of the type of Westerns that Hollywood produce – probably better than most, but miles aware from the films you mentioned.

But even when the major studios took Westerns seriously, there more than a few that ain't classics. I'm rather partial to Duel in the Sun (Lust in the Dust as wags quipped) but it's something of a mess – casting of Jennifer Jones as a Mexican was a blunder etc.

The mention of Destry Rides Again is an interesting one – as in the Stewart version, the male star nearly didn't get cast. The reason was that he 'didn't look like a cowboy' and was too gawky – in Hollywood, the belief was that you needed someone big and beefy to play cowboys and this sums up the approach Hollywood took to making these films

With The Magnificent Seven, personally I think it's a not bad remake of a bona fide classic – iconic and commercially successful, but for my money there are better films.

You mention the charge these films carry, but my own feeling is something like The Great Silence has something in spades and a far more powerful conclusion, which stays with the viewer, than the Hollywood happy (relatively) ending in something like High Noon,

Spaghetti westerns are very stylised, and the characters are often archetypes (sometimes almost cardboard cutouts)....

Although many were stylised, particularly the violence, as I mentioned above, I feel it's overly stereotyping a genre somewhat. Characters in High Noon are simplistic, but this isn't a problem for most people – and I would say a lot of American Westerns had characters weren't that well-developed and often stereotypical.

I'm certainly not going to say that all characters were richly-drawn in every single Spaghetti Western, as this obviously isn't the case, but there are some cracking characterisation in certain films.

... They unfold like a game of chess and the music in the films is hugely important; to the point that Leone would sometimes shoot scenes to the already-prepared music. ...

This doesn't apply to other directors.

Japanese cinema (notably Kurosawa) is the only thing that comes close. Indeed, it directly inspired the genre (Fistful of Dollars is based on Kurosawa's Yojimbo).

Westerns started because there was a demand in foreign countries for Westerns when American studios were winding down production – that was what inspired the genre.

Although a A Fistful of Dollars was effectively a remake of Yojimbo, it was the story, not the style that Leone took.

Kurosawa's main influence for the plot of Yojimbo was The Glass Key a film adaptation of a Dashiel Hammett  novel - and quite a few believe he was also influenced by another Hammett book, Red Harvest.

A Fistful of Dollars, although a major influence on the style of many Spaghetti Westerns, was by no means the first in the genre. However, you could argue that it set the style for future films – but it's the plot of Yojimbo that influenced Leone.  A story that started out as a detective one, then became a ronin one and then a cowboy one.

Kurosawa made no secret that he was a fan of American Westerns, especially those of John Ford, and was influenced by them.

It is fair to say that Japanese samurai/ronin films did influence American Westerns with the portrayal of main characters – years before A Fistful of Dollars came out - which would have obvious influence on Spaghetti Westerns. But American films would have influenced Japanese ones.

[NoSleep]

I came across a letter from Kurosawa to Leone (while I was looking for Leone's quote about music being 80% of film).

In a letter to Leone, which the Italian director wrongly considered a compliment, Kurosawa wrote: "Signor Leone - I have just had the chance to see your film. It's a very fine film, but it is my film."

[VegaLA]

this is completely off-topic, but IMHO his best work is Don't Torture A Duckling, despite the amazingly crappy special effects in the climax.

Heh. I read the scene where the priest falls off the cliff and messes his face up got Fulci the 'Zombie flesh eaters' gig.

I plan on watching 'Four...' this weekend.

[Egyptian Feast]

Heh. I read the scene where the priest falls off the cliff and messes his face up got Fulci the 'Zombie flesh eaters' gig.

I plan on watching 'Four...' this weekend.

The effect was so 'good' the first time, he pretty much repeats it in the opening of Seven Notes In Black. I love the way sparks fly off the dummy's face as it bashes against the rocks. Realistic!

[Ignatius_S]

I came across a letter from Kurosawa to Leone (while I was looking for Leone's quote about music being 80% of film).

Thanks – that link looks very interesting, I'll have to give it a good read.

One thing I always thought was odd is that Fistful is often not described as remake of Yojimbo but Last Man Standing is – but I think that this is because the latter is officially licensed as a remake, but the former wasn't has Leone didn't get the rights (and I think got sued successfully for it). My own actual preference is for Kurosawa's film

This link might be of interest – some stills from the version of The Glass Key that Kurosawa was influenced by, bearing resemblance to Yojimbo.