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Civ V

Started by Buchstansangur, September 24, 2010, 09:38:23 PM

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Just installed it. Anybody else?

I'm not looking forward to the usual "play for ten hours to learn the new bits in this installment", but I'm generally excited. Civ V!

Zetetic

Hexes and 1Unit-per-tile are truly excellent decisions; wars are a lot more enjoyable. The new system of resources (they provide limited amounts for use by buildings or units) similarly makes war a lot more meaningful.

My only gripe with it is that if you end up developing a sufficiently large empire, I've found it very difficult to stop my economy from tanking (often more difficult than maintaining happiness). Which is how it should be, but it'd be nice to be able to split myself up, liberating friendly states.

I've played half a game now (small map, Chieftain difficulty and I'm still nowhere near the modern era after eight hours) and it's good. I think they've simplified things a lot since IV. I'm not baffled by new things with lots of subtleties like was in IV (I didn't understand some of the intricacies of that after winning several gams, but nothing in V really baffles me). Some people have mentioned that diplomacy is a bit off because you can't probe leaders about what they think of other nations, but this doesn't bother me. I think that it's good that you have to pay attention to their actions to find out how they feel.

I don't understand the numbers yet. For example, I would establish a city in IV based around counting tile resources and planning improvements, but I don't know how to do that in V yet so I can't play particularly well. I've heard that the tile improvements don't give big enough bonuses, which may turn out to be a gripe.

The AI is interesting. The advisers are pretty terrible, and would probably cause a player new to the game to build 15 workers for each city. The computer AI is very interesting indeed. I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but in the space of one move three AI leaders and their friendly three city states had declared war on me. On Chieftain difficulty. It is certainly making for an eventful and fun game, but I'm yet to decide whether being thrown into six wars at once is genius game design or idiocy.

I'm unimpressed by the graphics. It rarely looks any better than Civ IV, although it is more responsive (you don't get a sense of everything freezing up while the computer crunches gameplay numbers). I'm glad that the tactical overlay is there because I couldn't possibly tell what a hexagon contains by looking at the normal view. The leader animations are pretty, but they don't seem to be that dynamic (I'm not sure if I've ever seen more than one animation per leader. Are they angry, happy? I've never noticed). The interface itself is mostly quite nice, if a little dumbed-down in places.

hoverdonkey

It's not available for Mac this time, so I'll be passing on it. If it had been getting utterly amazing reviews, I would have considered Windows 7 and the Boot Camp route, but I'll stick with IV I think

Ignatius_S

Quote from: hoverdonkey on September 28, 2010, 11:00:30 AM
It's not available for Mac this time, so I'll be passing on it. If it had been getting utterly amazing reviews, I would have considered Windows 7 and the Boot Camp route, but I'll stick with IV I think
I think there's always been a delay between the Mac and PC versions, Firaxis has essentially said that this version will be ported to OS X at some stage.

#5
Yeah, I have to dual boot to play it :-(

The interface is disappointing because it simply doesn't give you numbers, and a lot of time the numbers aren't in the help either. Civ should never be a "do something vague and hope it's the right thing based on a vague description of the thing's ability" game like Sim City. It should be possible to calculate exactly how something your cash balance, for instance. I can't even figure out how much cities and units are costing me.

You can't click on a moving-unit and see its destination. There will undoubtedly be a £15.99 expansion pack coming out far too late to fix these basic issues.

IV is the better game at the moment, simply because it's actually possible to make decisions based on information. V might be the better game if they quit with the "streamlining" obsession and give you some fucking information.

#6
There is also a massive hammers cost involved in building anything, and the effects of any structure are so small that it's a complete waste of time. I doubt my game would have been affected if I didn't build anything but units.

As for bugs, they're as bad as this: If you try to do a "gold per turn" trade, the number entry box is broken and will reset whatever you put in there. It's just that broken.

Getting to know the game was a mistake, because the things I thought were a result of me not knowing it well enough mostly turned out to be omissions, design mistakes and bugs in the game.

Ignatius_S

Quote from: Buchstansangur on September 28, 2010, 12:35:13 PM
Yeah, I have to dual boot to play it :-(
...
On the plus side, you normally get better performance doing that. I can't swear this is true, but had read that although Civ 4 on the Mac played well, things slowed down more in later years than in Windows.

It's on Steam isn't it?

I had read it badly needs a patch, so after having it confirmed, think I'll wait a bit!

What's the military A.I. like?

It's not too smart about organising ranged units behind melee ones, and seems to make its units hang around outside cities when it could easily send them in and take the cities out, particularly with the cooperation of its allies. This is just from my one game on Chieftain difficulty though, so perhaps it's different at proper levels of play.

Zetetic

Quote from: Buchstansangur on September 28, 2010, 02:28:05 PM
There is also a massive hammers cost involved in building anything, and the effects of any structure are so small that it's a complete waste of time. I doubt my game would have been affected if I didn't build anything but units.
Play at higher levels, and cash and happiness will become important.

QuoteAs for bugs, they're as bad as this: If you try to do a "gold per turn" trade, the number entry box is broken and will reset whatever you put in there. It's just that broken.
WFM.

QuoteGetting to know the game was a mistake, because the things I thought were a result of me not knowing it well enough mostly turned out to be omissions, design mistakes and bugs in the game.
There are bugs. And there are aspects of the design that needs polish. This was certainly the case though with Civ IV and Civ III at release, and Civ V is such massive overhaul of Civilization (whilst still being very much recognisable as Civ) that I don't find surprising that it has its fair share. (And I wouldn't say more than its fair share.)

The UI is overminimalist, such that it's overcomplicated to discover information that was easier to find in Civ IV. To some extents mods can rectify this even if no patch does.
The AI needs work. The AI always needs work. All AI always needs work. But you're right that the tactical AI is poor even at its 'highest' level (Prince; no attempt to stultify the AI occurs at this point, and difficulty is entirely due to 'cheating' in higher difficulties). However, it was pretty fucking stupid in Civ IV, but easier to hide due the nature of Stacks of Death. Again I'll note this improved.

I agree that the expansion pack gouging is a little nasty - Civ IV became a fantastic game only after BtS - but at least there's evidence of real work in them usually.

Zetetic

Quote from: Buchstansangur on September 28, 2010, 12:35:13 PMIt should be possible to calculate exactly how something your cash balance, for instance. I can't even figure out how much cities and units are costing me.
Hover over the economy counter.

QuoteYou can't click on a moving-unit and see its destination. There will undoubtedly be a £15.99 expansion pack coming out far too late to fix these basic issues.
Indeed. Or get some aspects of worker info (like time left building a road). I can only work out how far a long an improvement is by using the tactical view.

QuoteIV is the better game at the moment, simply because it's actually possible to make decisions based on information. V might be the better game if they quit with the "streamlining" obsession and give you some fucking information.
Like I say, it's often distressingly well hidden but you can find it. I'm going to keep an eye open for mods though...

P.S. If Buchstansangur or anyone else here wants a MP game (even just a 'comp-stomp' or something) I'd love to do that. I'll note that the MP has its own problems (for example, no unit animations) and I'd turn off 'simultaneous turns' if it was up to me, as they do my head in.

Quote from: Zetetic on September 28, 2010, 08:21:34 PM
WFM.
They fixed this in a patch that I got today. It was definitely broken, lots of complaints about it on the 'net.

Quote from: Zetetic on September 28, 2010, 08:25:12 PM
Hover over the economy counter
I'm missing more detailed information, but yeah, the hover helps. Thanks!

Quote from: Zetetic on September 28, 2010, 08:25:12 PMOr get some aspects of worker info (like time left building a road).
Don't you get that when you hover or click the worker or something? Maybe I'm just expecting it should be there because it's a blindingly obvious thing, or misremembering it from Civ IV.

Quote from: Zetetic on September 28, 2010, 08:25:12 PMP.S. If Buchstansangur or anyone else here wants a MP game (even just a 'comp-stomp' or something) I'd love to do that. I'll note that the MP has its own problems (for example, no unit animations) and I'd turn off 'simultaneous turns' if it was up to me, as they do my head in.
I'd be up for that, when I'm up to standard in V. Simultaneous turns can get right out, I agree.

If anybody has any tips on square counting for choosing city locations and planning improvements please let me know. That's my biggest missing skill at the moment. I haven't even figured out the equivalent of the "fat cross" in V yet. Probably a big hexagon radiating 3 squares out from the central tile, I suppose. A bit more difficult to judge. Perhaps counting isn't such a massive advantage in V as the cities are fairly dynamic and a bad location can be salvaged with good tech.

Of course, arranging a multiplayer game involves finding a time when each player has 16 hours free, because *you can't save multiplayer games in Civ V*. I've heard that you can't even reconnect if disconnected.

hoverdonkey

I dug out Civ IV last night having been reminded of it by this thread and only realised today that Beyond the Sword has finally been released for Mac, which is rather excellent, so I'll be on Steam tonight. I didn't even know there was a third one - 'Colonization' [sic]. Is it worth getting?

MojoJojo

Colinization isn't an add on as such it's a remake of the early 90s game. It's pretty different to Civ, involving lower level management on some levels (you put people to work in buildings a lot more, with relatively few people working tiles). You also have to ship goods all over the place to sell them.

I found it pretty disappointing.

hoverdonkey

Cheers, I'll just get BtS in that case

There's this, which is apparently a dumbed-down version of the game for consoles. I haven't played it, maybe it's fun.

Zetetic

Civ Revolutions is different, but interesting.

Looking at the mod stuff, it really is rather impressive in how customisable various aspects are, including Civ 'Personalities' and how they affect the AI. Neverthless, I do hope that the AI does continue to see core work.

Something that really pissed me off today. I offered 5 gold per turn as a trade and clicked the "what do you want for this" button. The computer's response was MORE than 5 gold per turn on his part, along with a bunch of his own resources.

Then the game crashed five minutes later.

Quote from: Zetetic on September 28, 2010, 08:25:12 PM
get some aspects of worker info (like time left building a road)
You might have found this, but if you go to the top left of the screen and open the unit list, it tells you the length of whatever your workers are building next to their names.

It could just show you this when you click on the fuckers, but that wouldn't be streamlined or something.

Zetetic

Ah, it does tell you when you click on them. I'd just somehow assumed that the interface for a selected unit would be universal/generic, but that hover information might be specific/dynamic. It's eminently possible to mod in hover information I would have thought, although I'd have to learn Lua, and at the moment I'm finding it very hard to actually find things in the Civ 5 code.

It does show it on click? Well I'll be.

I haven't looked at it yet. I wonder what I would change. I've never really been into modding, but if I could do some considerable UI customisation I might have a look. I probably wouldn't change the game itself much, as I like the idea of beating the challenge that the game makers have set out for me, and the difficulty levels/other nations are all the challenge I need.

Another annoying crash: I like to finish my games off by eradicating every other living thing on the planet. Turns out that the game *will always crash* when you destroy the last city state.

Zetetic

Well, I've made a very (small) start on adding more useful hover information.

If you're competent (Lua, XML) and persistent, then the UI is pretty much entirely customisable.

Zetetic

#23
Whee! I've got it showing something along the lines of
Quote
Egyptian Worker
Chop Down Forest (2)
2 >> remaining.
Click to select this unit.

Has been a bit of pain working various things out, but at least I'm learning a bit of the interfaces now. (I'd also never touched Lua until today, so if I can do it, so can anyone.)

Zetetic

Aaaand, it's online now (Mods > Online > UI > Widgets or Other). If anyone wants to try it, and make any suggestions (or note any bugs) then I'd appreciate any feedback.

Nice work. Perhaps I will make a note of enhancements to attempt next time I play. Although I probably can't find the time to play, let alone learn LUA and the game framework.

rudi

The combat is much better; everything else is worse. :-(

Also, it's almost imposiible to get through a game without having to eventually settle it all through fighting.

Bah!

Oh, and it likes to freeze and crash as games get into the modern ages.

I played another game and just felt pissed off with the whole thing. It's rub. I zoomed into a city, looked at its four brown polygons and switched the game off.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

There's something so hideously ugly about it. Not only the graphics but the structure.

Compare it to the brutal simplicity of Civ II and there's no comparison. It may be unrealistic but it has a sophisticated framework that still stands out, and the basic graphics compliment it in a sense bring everything down to a clear and simple level. As it should be in a strategy. Civ 5's graphics aren't even nice to look at.

Seeing the new Civs in action make me feel a bit depressed, especially when stuff like the Campaign Map in Total War seems to do what Civ should be primarily whipping its arse on, better. AND Total War lets you control the battles rather than watch some frankly still very absurd animated fighting.