Beardy PC RPGs

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Morrowind is about a personal journey though. All my best bits aren't completing missions, they're escaping from tombs by the skin of my teeth with loads of loot, unpicking a lock with an Indoril Guard stood right next to me, draining the entire Hlaalu vaults dry with 6 ordinators in the room. That sort of stuff- none of that is necessarily on the quest. Morrowind is great if you play computer games with the mentality 'Will it let me do that?'. It's a huge sandbox where the limit of the enjoyment ends where your imagination and will to explore ends.

What's hollow about that? That's about as enriching as gaming gets. I preferred that to Fable II's sandbox gameplay, which is basically a sandbox being slowly digested by a very much linear python (storyline).

[Tokyo Sexwhale]

Well with Morrowind and Oblivion, I've taken ages to finish them simply because I lose interest in the repetition of it all.  Even with Fallout 3, I haven't played it for about 3 months despite being about 70% through it.  The caves and temples start to look the same; and yes there are thrills to be had if you generate them yourself - like trying to kill everyone in the town, or throwing stuff over a roof; but there is no real feeling that the characters are anything more than checkpoints and quest-givers.  I'm not sure I can even recall too many npc names.

THe D&D rpgs are a lot more linear; but they do tend to have satisfying characterisation, and even some genuine moral issues.  I think it's one of the Baldurs Gate expansions where you have to co-operate with a child killer (I think it's insinuated that he might even be a rapist) to escape from one of the prisons.

I think the perfect RPG should be the balance of the two.  Proper characters and a sense of complete freedom.  Does anyone know of such a game?

[Lee Van Cleef]

I'd steer clear of WoW because it becomes a huge timesink and, worse, the community really makes for a depressing endgame experience.  Whilst, as a game, it is utterly brilliant the nature of endgame content with the dungeons and raiding means that, unless you start chasing achievements you're going to be forced into the guild thing in order to run high level raids.  At this point it almost takes on a professional kind of atmosphere, everyone is expected to know exactly what to do without having stepped foot in places and any kind of mistake will likely see you kicked.  If you want to spend a bit of time watching youtube videos of fights and reading wowwiki then go for it, otherwise be prepared for a lot of abuse from people that have no patience for "nubs."  If you do decide to go for it, go DPS... tanking and healing usually results in large amounts of abuse at some point.

I will say that one of the most underrated aspects of the game is the humour.  The number of pop references and little sideswipes you notice as you go along are cracking, and there are some brilliant gaming moments.  The first time running Halls of Reflection is just a breath-taking experience, and just recently they added Operation Gnomeregan which, as a Gnome Warrior for some years, I found a somewhat emotional event that stirred a bit of racial pride in me.  As a West Wing fan I also laughed out loud at Toby Zeigear, the Gnomish Speech-writer:




To me Daggerfall is by far the superior of the TES series.  As mentioned before Morrowind is a rather hollow experience, although a beautiful one, the storyline just doesn't feel as pressing as it did in Daggerfall and whilst Daggerfall looks like crap I found it incredibly easy to get lost in that giant world and felt more involved in the whole process, right from the moment I woke up in the cave.  They're both bugged to shit though, so prepare to feel all your immersion sucked out every so often with crashes to desktop because you approached a bridge at the wrong time.

TS, off the top of my head I can't think of any games like that.  The like S?S! said the non-linear games are about personal involvement, you're meant to impose your character on the avatar (hence the things like class selection questions which try to marry a class to your own moral code).  Forcing a specific characterisation into that essentially downgrades the experience.  It's the reason the D&D RPGs are third-person and the TES RPGs are first-person, the D&D ones want you to get lost in the storyline and relate to characters, the TES ones want you to play out the game and experience the diegetic world as if you were there.

[Mister Six]

TS, off the top of my head I can't think of any games like that.  The like S?S! said the non-linear games are about personal involvement, you're meant to impose your character on the avatar (hence the things like class selection questions which try to marry a class to your own moral code).  Forcing a specific characterisation into that essentially downgrades the experience.  It's the reason the D&D RPGs are third-person and the TES RPGs are first-person, the D&D ones want you to get lost in the storyline and relate to characters, the TES ones want you to play out the game and experience the diegetic world as if you were there.

There's a happy medium to be found, though, surely? The original Fallout comes pretty close - a character into which you can put any attributes you like, plus non-linearity (absurdly so in the sequel), plus a host of memorable and interesting characters. Games don't have to be like Oblivion, with their paper-thin non-characters.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

The gaming criticisms about Oblivion are all valid, but I'd probably still have got it if all it allowed you to do was walk around taking in the beautiful scenery.

The Elder Scrolls games now they're all consoley and next gen need to sharpen up the combat element (before the story). There's no direct sense of thrust and parry. I also find the way the NPC's just switch instantly to this sort of psychotic bravura, even when they're very poorly armed downright alarming.

The worst thing about Fallout 3 is that you can aim at something which on a normal shooter would result in a hit, but because of the dice-throwing RPG stats it's all governed by, you can miss, sometimes with a gun from 2 metres away. They should either make it far harder to aim or reduce the amount of damage you can do. It's bloody irritating.

So sort it out Bethesda.

[hpmons]

A thread where people are talking about Planescape and old Fallout and Morrowind? AWESOME.

fake edit: Oops...this was way, way longer than I meant it to be.

Planescape - Awesome...I can't imagine any game with a more interesting plot.  I suppose it is quite linear, not much "choices and consequences", but I just found the whole world so engaging that it didn't bother me.  It's quite a unique setting - almost all D&D computer games seem to be set in the Forgotten Realms, which is just standard and boring; Planescape has lots of oddities and weird ideas in it which I love (Lady of Pain, the portals, the bizarre factions which I never fully explored).  The characters are on the whole well developed (I really liked Dak'kon, Annah was a bit dull though) and the main motivation to play was to discover more of the story - I can't think of any other game where I've felt that.  To my mind its a sign of a great game.  Its also one of the few games where your character has a genuine background and history - I'd imagine its a little hard to do this without the amnesia hook, as it would require too much exposition to start with.  Its an interesting contrast to most games where you begin with a totally blank slate and react to events around you, since its more of a personal quest than a worldly one.
The only negative thing I could say is that the combat is terrible, but apparently there are only about four combats that are essential to finish the game, so its something that can largely be avoided.  It is very dialogue heavy, which I guess appeals to me, I'm kinda surprised there aren't many text-based RPGs (the closest I've found is Sryth, inspired by gamebook/Choose Your Own Adventure things; maybe a few Interactive Fiction stuff borders on RPG as well).

Fallout 2 - I have to admit, I barely got anywhere with Fallout 1, though I intend to get back to it.  I remember enjoying Fallout 2 a lot, and feel bad that I don't remember it very well.  The beginning is tiresome (I think you go through some beginning cave/dungeon area to prove your worth etc) and the game feels clunky at times, but once you get past that its great.  It has a nice clear stats and skills system that allows you to take your character in a lot of different directions and it gets the balance quite well between interesting characters and a non-linear feeling.  The main selling point of the game is that it thrives on choices and consequences like no other.  Morally grey areas, characters that lie to you (isn't there a quote from some guy working on Oblivion saying that NPCs shouldn't lie to you? Rubbish.), rewards that don't always favour one play type than another, multiple ways to complete a quest... Fallout gives you a lot of freedom while still being hand crafted (as opposed to Daggerfall's procedural generation etc) which gives it a more engaging feel.  This is a game where you get different conversations and are sometimes even rewards for having low intelligence.
Two main downsides: The main quest/storyline was, for me, not very interesting.  Secondly the usefulness of different skills varies wildly: There's a lot of the game you'd miss if you don't pick speech, while gambling or sneaking never seemed actually useful.

Daggerfall - Its a game I want to like, I really do.  It's an absolutely huge game (apparently Morrowind, is 0.01% the size of Daggerfall), offers an insane amount of freedom (due to the random generation) and just has a lot of cool ideas in it.  My problem with it is a mix of poor graphics (I generally prefer isometric perspective to 3D anyway, and can't stand poor 3D), clunky controls and interface, and lack of interest in anything thats happened.  A randomly generated woman has gone missing alongside a randomly generated man? That sounds...er...hm.  Wait, another problem: bugginess.
On the plus side: the dungeons are truly terrifying places to be.  Even the starting dungeon is scary.  No other game has filled me with (pleasurable) dread at the thought of entering a dungeon.  The sounds the bats make! The confusing twists and turns! The fact that the exit door barely looks like a door at all!  From what I recall, there are no helpful quest markers here.
It also has loads of skills, and its satisfying raising them, trying to work out which to focus on (unlike Morrowind/Oblivion, it feels like theres just too many skills, and you can't try raising them all to 100). The character creation is more in-depth as you can select weaknesses or resistances, armour you are...allergic to or something.  It offers a lot of freedom, it just doesn't feel like a living, breathing world.

Morrowind - I'm often surprised Morrowind doesn't get much love, its one of my favourite games.  I admit, most of the quests aren't that strong plot-wise - a fair few fetch quests/kill quests dressed up a bit, few compelling characters, there isn't much of my beloved "choices and consequences" (only two examples spring to mind: the House you choose, and the later Fighters Guild/Thieves Guild quests)...But APART from that...
Firstly, the world feels alien.  I'm surprised people don't comment on it more - each race look and speak differently and the architecture is fascinating.  You've got the more mystical feel to the Telvanni areas, the bizarreness of the Dwarven ruins, the super-structured coldness of Vivec, the Imperial HQ.  The whole backdrop to the game isn't some nice cosy place where suddenly demons pour forth, but an area in transition, in conflict: the Dunmer resenting the Imperial presence, sometimes Dunmer hating other Dunmer for siding with them, the Imperials trying to control the people through religion.  The quests themselves may not be very engaging, but I find the setting definitely is.  I even read some of the books that are scattered around.
Putting all that aside - Morrowind is just fun.  Its fun jumping up the ranks of guilds, exploring the wilderness (minus the cliff racers), and...its fun breaking the game.  Using potions to buff yourself incredibly: Levitation Is AWESOME.  Heck, I'd actually play Oblivion if it had levitation.  It makes you feel so POWERFUL.  Once you've gotten a bit bored with the quests, its great to just whizz around, make ridiculous enchantments, try repeatedly to steal super-valuable things.

Oblivion - Eh.  Its pretty? In such a conventional way though.  The bizarre level scaling is what really put me off, but also the lack of levitation, and just the...boringness of everything.  I never finished it, but I do remember there were two good quests (I very much doubt there were any more) - one where you went inside someone else's dream (?), and another where you went inside a painting.  Those were inspired, the rest was dross that I won't waste words on.

Baldur's Gate 2 - I found the beginning of BG1 unbearably cliché and never got past it, and I almost gave up on BG2.  I don't remember it very well, but I remember struggling to enjoy it for a while, and eventually getting into it and enjoying it.  It's something I intend to get back to (I brought the boxset to uni with me), but never did.  Largely traditional D&D stuff, which really doesn't work for me.

Neverwinter Nights - I bought it recently for £1.  Again, never finished it (got to the beginning of Act 2).  Its quite respectable, a decent time-filler, but I couldn't heap praise on it.  I assume there are some awesome mods out there though.

Icewind Dale - Don't play.  From what I remember, its just all endless combat and nothing more.

Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines - I heard of this ages ago but was put off by it because...Vampires? Meh, they suck.  Eventually I got into it, and its awesome...Uh, another game I never finished, but I genuinely really, really want to.  It's somewhat non-linear, the actual decision-making reminds me a little of The Witcher, in that there are I think three main people to side with, and I'd assume gameplay is pretty different depending on who you go with.  The actual locations feel pretty small, I do remember spending a lot of time on the game and yet still feeling quite restricted.  It was however, another game where getting more information about the story was a large motivation of playing, finding out more about the characters, and just really enjoying some of the quests.  Its definitely a game with quite a bit of replay value (the clans can be quite varied - one makes you say insane things and signposts start talking to you; another has to travel via sewers and cant be seen by humans).  The game also has interesting mechanic - reveal your vampiric nature to humans too much and the game ends; gain or lose humanity points and various different options will be open.  Discard all your preconceptions and dislike of vampire things here.

Arcanum - A game I want to like, but can't.  I can't even pinpoint my dislike of it.  Its a vaguely interesting setting which isn't used much in computer games (conflict between magic and technology - presumably used a lot in P&P games or fantasy books though), and the starting point isn't terrible (you were in a mysterious crash, some guy comes up to you proclaiming you to be some sort of god/prophet, but he sounds very unsure of himself).  From what I understand it specifically goes against a lot of clichés, and even what I did play showed there was a lot of opportunity to push your character in different directions and affect things.  But somehow it just feels cold.  I guess the problem is that the world doesn't feel alive, everyone is stationary and usually wait for you to come to them.  I suppose this is true of Fallout, so I'm not sure what makes this different.

The Witcher - Woo! Sex cards!  Uh, there are other reasons to play this game...Yeah...
I was quite excited (in the non-sexual way) by this game.  I really liked the mechanics - the bestiary, the actually cool mini games, alchemy, different fighting styles, the level system.  Its rare that I actually like combat in a game, but this felt like just the right difficulty.  I liked the fact that things rarely fell into a simple good/evil dichotomy, and that sometimes you were forced to make choices when you didn't/couldn't have all the facts (was Abigail evil? I'm still not sure).  Unravelling information was satisfying, on the whole characters were engaging, and it felt mature without being crass (uh...ok, maybe the sex cards is a little).  It certainly has replay value as well, I played on the elves side only. 
What lets down the game is kinda...the fact he's a witcher.  A.k.a he kills monsters for a living.  You spend lots of time doing "kill 10 X" quests, with nothing more to it.  Also, while the game explores grey areas (which is good), sometimes it does so in a very self-conscious way, constantly alerting you to the fact that choices can be difficult, and not everything is cut and dry.  His amnesia seems dull in this game, as (from what I remember, I played it when it first came out) you never really find out the causes behind it, and his life (before you start controlling it) doesn't seem at all complex.

Gothic 1 - Its very strange - I remember liking this a lot, but for some reason I uninstalled it when I was quite near the end, and I can't remember much of it now.  I liked the feel of it, it was a unique setting (a prisoner in a mining colony) and felt quite alive, even if it didnt have people walking around much, and had ye olden mages.  I can't really imagine anyone being too enthusiastic about it, but it was certainly quite fun.

Darklands - Get it here A surprisingly fantastic game, though it took me a while to get into it.  Basically you control a group of four adventurers in medieval Germany (though one where magic and demons kinda exist), and wander about gaining fame and phat lewt.  It has a really fantastic character creation, where you select what your characters did for each 5 years of their life (Alchemist, Master Alchemist, Courtier, Village Guard, etc), to build up your stats and skills (and starting equipment) - though your stats will decrease if you start off too old.  It can get quite confusing, even with the manual, to really understand prayers and saints and alchemy etc, and you start off feeling so weak, but once you get into the swing of things, its wonderful.  Its a largely menu-based game, but some of the background images are great - heres a neat picture.  There isn't exactly a main story line, but I believe after a while there is an opportunity to fight a Big Bad demon or something, though I never got that far.  I believe it had quite an accurate portrayal of ye olden Germany, which may appeal to some.
I suppose the downside is the graphics - also the weird way it has three...systems? Im not sure if thats the right word.  Firstly the menu-based system when you're in town, then the strange world-view with its astoundingly bad graphics, then the combat.  Also, the combat seems quite complicated and I never fully grasped it, but I still managed to win...half the time, so I guess that doesn't matter.  I suppose it does get a bit repetitive, but it just feels so nice exploring the game.

Wizardry 8 - I just realised it was released in 2001, only a year before Morrowind, but it feels a lot more old-skool... Again, a game I barely scratched the surface of, and had to uninstall at one point to save space, and never reinstalled.  I guess in a way it was fairly traditional fare, but somehow it felt weird and interesting.  I ought to give it another try.  I remember thinking it had some interesting skill mechanics.

Betrayal at Krondor - Im just mentioning it because I wonder if anyone's played it.  I started too, but found it too difficult at one point and the graphics were frustrating.  I believe it had an interesting story line, but I felt a little put off by all the fantastical names.

Albion - It kept crashing at one point, and I never got past it.  Seemed interesting though.

Jagged Alliance - Too tactical for my liking, but had some cool ideas.

Geneforge - Oh damn! Its so late and I'm tired, and I forgot all about this one...Its a series of games in quite an interesting setting.  A lot of it feels a bit basic - the menus, the graphics, the music...But underneath that its a fun little gem. 

[Mister Six]

Fallout 2 - I have to admit, I barely got anywhere with Fallout 1, though I intend to get back to it.  I remember enjoying Fallout 2 a lot, and feel bad that I don't remember it very well.

Play it again. The combat may seem tiresome in this age of whizzy effects and real-time destruction, but the game world is simultaneously vast and astoundingly detailed, and as you say it's got a plethora of choices. It's the only game I know in which you can seduce a woman (or man), get forced into a shotgun wedding, get your spouse hooked on drugs and turn them out for money.

I'd also suggest playing Fallout 1 first, if you ever plan to give it another chance, because Fallout 2 is so huge and complicated that it makes Fallout 1 seem tiny by comparison - despite F1 being an enormous game in its own right. F1 has dozens of guns but F2 has hundreds. F1 has hundreds of characters but F2 has thousands... it skews your perception of just how massive F1 truly is.

Just be patient at the start. As you say, both games open with crushingly boring melee combat against rats/giant ants that really doesn't play to the game's strengths. At least it's over fairly quickly in F1...

(isn't there a quote from some guy working on Oblivion saying that NPCs shouldn't lie to you? Rubbish.)

I can believe it, and I wouldn't ask any Oblivion writers for advice on NPC construction. Lordy, that was a dull, characterless game. A complete waste of a brilliant engine.

Baldur's Gate 2 - I found the beginning of BG1 unbearably cliché and never got past it, and I almost gave up on BG2.  I don't remember it very well, but I remember struggling to enjoy it for a while, and eventually getting into it and enjoying it.  It's something I intend to get back to (I brought the boxset to uni with me), but never did.  Largely traditional D&D stuff, which really doesn't work for me.

Picked the first one up cheap recently. Haven't had a chance to play it yet - I'm completing a second playthrough of Planescape first and it's dragging a bit now I've made it to the Clerk's Level - but I did generate a character and was astounded by how poor the graphics were. It came out the year after Fallout and yet its characters are tiny and pixellated and its interface massive and complicated. A third of the screen is taken up with buttons, including stuff like the game menu (which most games were hiding behind a press of the Esc key by that time). Astonishing.

It also does that annoying thing of asking you to decide a load of different factors - race, class, skills etc - before you really understand how they'll be applied or how you'd want to play the game. I know everyone hates the Fallout 3 intro chapter, especially when replaying, but there's a kernel of a good idea there.

I'll still give it a good go, because hey - I've paid for it. But it's not had a great start.

Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines - I heard of this ages ago but was put off by it because...Vampires? Meh, they suck.  Eventually I got into it, and its awesome...Uh, another game I never finished, but I genuinely really, really want to.

I was thinking about this after they announced the V:TM MMORPG. I'd love another game like this one. And I mean pretty much exactly like this one, but with better graphics and a different setting. The haunted house section is the only level that's ever made me jump out of my chair in fright. An amazing experience.

Arcanum - A game I want to like, but can't.  I can't even pinpoint my dislike of it.  Its a vaguely interesting setting which isn't used much in computer games (conflict between magic and technology - presumably used a lot in P&P games or fantasy books though), and the starting point isn't terrible (you were in a mysterious crash, some guy comes up to you proclaiming you to be some sort of god/prophet, but he sounds very unsure of himself).  From what I understand it specifically goes against a lot of clichés, and even what I did play showed there was a lot of opportunity to push your character in different directions and affect things.  But somehow it just feels cold.

I actually completed this about three years ago when I was skint and bored. It starts off well, as you say, and the starting support character is interesting. But after the first major town - a kind of old west, complete with grizzled doctor and bank heist - it slowly forgets about its own premise and turns into a standard fantasy game. I mean, yeah, you go to a big town that looks a bit industrial and meet a kingpin who has a powerful handgun but the rest of the town is all wizard colleges and magic shops, and the other places are the standard dwarven mines, elven treetop villages, medieval-style towns etc. The idea of magical spells (including healing) not working on mechanical weapon users and vice versa is a pretty interesting one but they don't do much with it. And the game is horrendously unbalanced - there are no advantages to playing as a gunslinger, for example, while the final boss is pretty much a one-hit kill if you've completed a lot of quests and levelled up a lot.

Jagged Alliance - Too tactical for my liking, but had some cool ideas.

Only ever played the Deadly Games sub-series, which was a turn-based tactical game with some really cool characters.

[Treguard of Dunshelm]

I don't get the hatred for Oblivion - yes, it's more conventional looking than Morrowind, yes the backstory is more traditional medieval rpg fare, but the combat is vastly improved (as in it actually works). The missions imo are no more or less dull than Morrowind's (and you can find the fucking missions). The voice acting is just as repetitive, but that's never put me off a game. I did miss levitation though.

They both suffered from a magic system with no real incentive to use, and having pretty much all of the most interesting stuff reserved for stealthy/thief characters.

[Mister Six]

I never played Morrowind and I certainly don't hate the game. But while Cyrodiil was absolutely beautiful - I keep getting the urge to buy it on the cheap just so I can go running around those lush forests again - the people that populated it were flat, boring cyphers. It wasn't just that they all seemed to be voiced by the same five or six people, it was that they had no notable characteristics whatsoever beyond a vaguely defined attitude. Orc warrior chick's a bit full of herself. Stolen goods fence is a bit ratty and shifty. King's a bit uppity. Great. But why are they like that? What do they enjoy outside of their prescribed roles? For a game that makes a point of having its characters walk home at the end of a day's shift to cook dinner, it's awfully hard to believe that they genuinely have lives outside of their quests.

As for the combat, I made the terrible mistake of playing an archer, which meant that beyond about level three I spent most of the game running backwards from melee foes, twanging dozens of arrows into their eyes. I imagine swordfighting was a bit less tedious.

[hpmons]

yes, it's more conventional looking than Morrowind, yes the backstory is more traditional medieval rpg fare

That isn't reason enough?

the people that populated it were flat, boring cyphers. It wasn't just that they all seemed to be voiced by the same five or six people, it was that they had no notable characteristics whatsoever beyond a vaguely defined attitude. Orc warrior chick's a bit full of herself. Stolen goods fence is a bit ratty and shifty. King's a bit uppity. Great. But why are they like that? What do they enjoy outside of their prescribed roles? For a game that makes a point of having its characters walk home at the end of a day's shift to cook dinner, it's awfully hard to believe that they genuinely have lives outside of their quests.

The thing with Morrowind is...although it was a lot more static (people didn't really move about), and the quests weren't much better than Oblivion, the people, to me, felt more real.  Certainly the awful voice acting on Oblivion didn't help, but also all their language was just so plain and repetitive.  Sure, Morrowind had a fair amount of repetition too, but different characters could still have clearly different political views, even fairly unimportant characters tended to have more complex personalities than just good/evil/wacky.  The characters weren't as good as some RPGs, but definitely more rounded than Oblivion.  Despite the quests not being much better, it just...worked.

I didn't play Oblivion for that long (well, still many hours, but nowhere close to as much as Morrowind), but from what I recall the combat really wasn't much improved.  It was still sub-par to most games and didn't involve much strategy (if any?). 

I guess after writing that really long post I realise that I find setting very important.  The best games have the most well-defined (and ideally unique) settings.  Planescape, Fallout, Morrowind, all had fantastic settings.  VtM had great characters, some excellent quests, but I felt a little let down by the setting.  Both Oblivion and Daggerfall had very bland settings (though the actual "Oblivion" was better than the main world) which makes it a lot more difficult to thrill me.

[Geraint]

Mister Six - if you can get hold of a cheap copy of BG2 there are mods that let you play the original with the sequel's improved resolution and interface, as well as add ease-of-use stuff to both games to avoid time wasted micromanaging your inventory. It actually does make quite a difference, and also gives you loads more options when creating your character. The sequel is the better game, but the first one is worth sticking with as its got a much more freeform, exploring out-of-the-way sections of the map type feel and the ridiculous levels of power you end up with in BG2 and its expansion are that bit more satisfying when you've had to run away from a wolf because at level one you can only cast two spells a day.

[Treguard of Dunshelm]

That isn't reason enough?

The thing with Morrowind is...although it was a lot more static (people didn't really move about), and the quests weren't much better than Oblivion, the people, to me, felt more real.  Certainly the awful voice acting on Oblivion didn't help, but also all their language was just so plain and repetitive.  Sure, Morrowind had a fair amount of repetition too, but different characters could still have clearly different political views, even fairly unimportant characters tended to have more complex personalities than just good/evil/wacky.  The characters weren't as good as some RPGs, but definitely more rounded than Oblivion.  Despite the quests not being much better, it just...worked.

I didn't play Oblivion for that long (well, still many hours, but nowhere close to as much as Morrowind), but from what I recall the combat really wasn't much improved.  It was still sub-par to most games and didn't involve much strategy (if any?). 

I guess after writing that really long post I realise that I find setting very important.  The best games have the most well-defined (and ideally unique) settings.  Planescape, Fallout, Morrowind, all had fantastic settings.  VtM had great characters, some excellent quests, but I felt a little let down by the setting.  Both Oblivion and Daggerfall had very bland settings (though the actual "Oblivion" was better than the main world) which makes it a lot more difficult to thrill me.

Mmm, yeah, valid points. I guess were we differ is that I rarely pay much attention to plot or characters in games, it's the gameplay itself that draws me in (or doesn't), which is why the combat improvements, thought they might not have been a massive overhaul, were a huge difference to me because although there is a hell of a lot I love about Morrowind, the one thing I hated about it was the combat. You're right to say Oblivion's combat still isn't very deep, but I don't think it's meant to be - the Elder Scrolls series is quite arcadey, isn't it?
Setting is fairly important but I don't think Oblivion's setting was bad, just less imaginative than it could have been (the Shivering Isles were much better than Cyrodil imo).

[Tokyo Sexwhale]

I guess the problem with Oblivion is that it just dribbles into nothingness - I've left it at a point where I've finished the main game, and have to wait a few days for some special armour to be made.

As I think I mentioned earlier - Oblivion did have a couple of great quests - and the scenery is stunning - I can particularly recommend the view from a rope bridge looking towards the main city - but a truly immersive game has to have recognisable "characters" to interact with, and a fantastic main plot. 

I can't even remember the conclusion now - was there some giant creature attacking that big central spire? 

[hpmons]

Just wanted to point this out, as it amused me:
Planescape: Torment Vision Statement

Last Rites is a violent, irreverent and breathtakingly beautiful RPG set at the crossroads of the multiverse. We intend to create an amusingly eccentric, mindspinning, cliché-breaking power fantasy splashed with visceral moments of breathtaking violence.
[...]
No more using boring swords, daggers or bows to carve bloody swaths through opponents. Plunge scalpels into foes‟ eyes, lace their food with poisonous embalming fluid, push them into man-eating pockets of ooze, sic them with sarcastic biting skulls, hurl them into razorvines, conjure burrowing rot grubs within a victim‟s brain, cast spells that make them bleed from every orifice, or change a person‟s scent so they attract packs of hungry rats. Deliver punishment in ways that will bring a smile to your face.
[...]
Equip stuff that scares small children.
[...]
Tons of Total Babes: This game will have lots of babes that make the player go "wow." There will be fiendish babes, human babes, angelic babes, asian babes, and even undead babes. These babes will be present without nipple-age and will all regrettably behave within the TSR Code of Ethics.

Most inaccurate pitch ever!  I mean...I guess there is violence, and some "babes", but it's far, far from the focus.  But that's how much some people lie to get funding...

[Mister Six]

To be fair, every woman in the game under 40 has E-cups. It's kind of embarassing, TBH.

[Geraint]

Just wanted to point this out, as it amused me:
Planescape: Torment Vision Statement

Most inaccurate pitch ever!  I mean...I guess there is violence, and some "babes", but it's far, far from the focus.  But that's how much some people lie to get funding...

a popular theory about its poor initial sales despite solid reviews and well-known links to a hit (the first Baldur's Gate) was that the awful advertising campaign put off way more of the game's core audience than it drew people in. from memory it was 2 pages of "phwooooar, look at this sexy corpse" with a tiny "you're an ugly dude with no memory in a Weird Place" blurb that was actually about the game buried in the corner

[Still Not George]

To be fair, every woman in the game under 40 has E-cups. It's kind of embarassing, TBH.

That's pretty true to the source material, though. At the time everything coming out of TSR featured women who looked like they'd just escaped from a Boris Vallejo painting. Not unique to TSR, mind you - I currently run an Exalted game and find myself regularly distracted by the endless enormous tits featured all over the rulebooks.

[hpmons]

I've been playing Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines the last couple of days...There really is no female character that isn't a slut.  Except...the old woman behind the counter at the diner I guess?

[Mister Six]

I've been playing Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines the last couple of days...There really is no female character that isn't a slut.  Except...the old woman behind the counter at the diner I guess?

And the weird fortune teller on the beach! But yeah, you're right. Especially odd because they make it clear in the game that vampires can't actually have penetrative sex and that drinking blood is a replacement for such.

Then again I was playing it as a slutty bisexual female vamp so I was perfectly happy (I usually go as a bloke on my first playthrough, but c'mon - vampires!).

a popular theory about its poor initial sales despite solid reviews and well-known links to a hit (the first Baldur's Gate) was that the awful advertising campaign put off way more of the game's core audience than it drew people in. from memory it was 2 pages of "phwooooar, look at this sexy corpse" with a tiny "you're an ugly dude with no memory in a Weird Place" blurb that was actually about the game buried in the corner

Yeah, thinking about it, it would've come out in that post-Playstation period when every advert in PC mags had a sub-FHM glamour girl in her pants and some dreadful text about 'waggling your joystick' or 'pressing her buttons' or 'spunking on her A/V cables' or something.

[Mister Six]

Baldur's Gate, eh? After rediscovering Planescape I thought I'd give it a go but it's turned out to be really fucking tedious. The combat's all right[nb]Except for the near-undetectable web traps that immobilise your men and force you to inch across entire forests.[/nb] but the setting is straight from 'Sub-Tolkein Fantasy Landscapes for Dummies'; the plot seems to consist of going somewhere, murdering someone and finding a letter leading you to the next murderee; and aside from some excellent (and very funny) random encounters, most of the characters are dull as dishwater. It's also frustrating to keep coming across new people to add to my party (there are, it seems, dozens) but being given no idea of what their skills or alignments are and thus no idea whether it's better to take them or keep the people I've got.

I'm probably going to pack it in, but I'm very aware that BG2, the Neverwinter Nights games and the Icewind Dale games all got rave reviews. Are they all much of a muchness or would it be worth me skipping to the later games in the series for a more satisfying experience?

Alternatively, can someone recommend a good RPG with a strong plot and interesting world-building? Preferably an old one that will work on my three-year-old laptop.

[Slaaaaabs]

I played a couple of very good action RPGs recently. There are console versions but the PC version is the way to go for maximum quality.

The Divinity 2 re-release (Dragon Knight Saga), which includes the expansion pack and large amounts of tweaks and bugfixes. It plays a bit like Fable (weapons, magic and ranged combat easily mixed), but retains the large amounts of loot and strategy of something deeper. The combat feels satisfying and the enemies are not levelled along with you, so you will always have those you can crush like flies and those which will do the same to you. You also get to

Spoiler alert

turn into a great big dragon at will and own a great big upgradeable battle tower

[close]

about a third ways into the game. All told it has about 60 hours of gameplay including the expansion pack (which slots seamlessly into the game.)

Two Worlds 2 is also a surprisingly excellent game, considering the abject shite that was the original. I'm only a short ways into this one but it has a real quality polish to it, both in looks and gameplay. The magic system is especially awesome, as it gives you free reign to combine various cards to create your own spells, you slot multiple effects, carriers and modifiers in amulets. Apparently it gets crazy later on, at the moment I don't have enough mana to cast the big stuff yet. Also Baboons fling shit at you.

[Cardinal Tit Storm]

Baldur's Gate, eh? After rediscovering Planescape I thought I'd give it a go but it's turned out to be really fucking tedious. The combat's all right[nb]Except for the near-undetectable web traps that immobilise your men and force you to inch across entire forests.[/nb] but the setting is straight from 'Sub-Tolkein Fantasy Landscapes for Dummies'; the plot seems to consist of going somewhere, murdering someone and finding a letter leading you to the next murderee; and aside from some excellent (and very funny) random encounters, most of the characters are dull as dishwater. It's also frustrating to keep coming across new people to add to my party (there are, it seems, dozens) but being given no idea of what their skills or alignments are and thus no idea whether it's better to take them or keep the people I've got.

I'm probably going to pack it in, but I'm very aware that BG2, the Neverwinter Nights games and the Icewind Dale games all got rave reviews. Are they all much of a muchness or would it be worth me skipping to the later games in the series for a more satisfying experience?

Alternatively, can someone recommend a good RPG with a strong plot and interesting world-building? Preferably an old one that will work on my three-year-old laptop.

If you don't like the first Baldur's Gate you probably won't like the second, or Icewind Dale for that matter, which is even more of a straight dungeon bash. Neverwinter Nights is the worst game Bioware ever made in my opinion, so I definitely wouldn't recommend that. I never tried the multiplayer/mod stuff though, which was pretty ambitious, or NWN2 which seems to have a good reputation.

The best way to play Baldur's Gate is to combine it with the second game so that they both use the later, better engine. If you do that, I think you have probably the biggest and best RPG ever made. Granted the setting is cheesy (bog standard D&D) and the story is weak (especially compared to Planescape:Torment), but the combat and exploring are a ton of fun, with so many different approaches available I don't think I will ever tire of it. I played it back to back with Torment a year or two ago, and it took about 2 minutes for me to get completely engrossed in Baldur's Gate in a way I never was with Torment. Dragon Age: Origins is the only other game I've played that even comes close.

As for the characters, there are a handful of good ones in the first game, and more in the second. The interactions between them are one of the games strengths (Jan vs Minsc for example). It's a shame that some of the first ones you meet are a bit of a drag, but you don't have to stick with them. I wouldn't worry about trying to recruit them all either, if that's even possible.

The Witcher is well worth a go, if you haven't played that. it has a piss-poor combat system, crappy locations, and a shite game engine (NWN), but it does have some of the best characterisation in any RPG, a reasonable story with some interesting moral choices, and a fantastic dry sense of humour. I got some genuine belly laughs out of it.

[Ignatius_S]

...The combat's all right but the setting is straight from 'Sub-Tolkein Fantasy Landscapes for Dummies' ...

Well, the setting for both games is Forgotten Realms for Dungeons & Dragons/Advanced Dungeons. It's one of the most successful RPG settings and is largely very well regarded – this isn't to say that therefore it's brilliant but they were licensing something with a very large following, rather than starting from scratch, so weren't going to take any liberties and it is what it is.

The mechanics for the game were based on the AD&D rules and I think the result worked very well. AD&D veterans were impressed at how faithful the system was, whilst it was still very playable to novices.

I've only played BG2 so obviously can't make comparisons, but I thought it was great – amusing characters for your party and just good fun to play.

It certainly set the bar high for one of my friends – she only plays RPGs, this was her first and she's only fairly recently stopped referring to games that take under 180 hours as 'poor value for money'.

I played a couple of very good action RPGs recently... Also Baboons fling shit at you.

Cheers for the head-up!

My burning question is can you fling it back at them?

....The best way to play Baldur's Gate is to combine it with the second game so that they both use the later, better engine. If you do that, I think you have probably the biggest and best RPG ever made...

The Witcher is well worth a go, if you haven't played that. it has a piss-poor combat system, crappy locations, and a shite game engine (NWN), but it does have some of the best characterisation in any RPG, a reasonable story with some interesting moral choices, and a fantastic dry sense of humour. I got some genuine belly laughs out of it.

Although I'm rather conscious of the amount of time it would take, I'm thinking about doing this – certainly the people I know who have done that have the same view as you.

I took some time out from The Witched to play Fallout NV and not that into it, but I would go along with what you said. Highly entertaining.

[Mister Six]

The best way to play Baldur's Gate is to combine it with the second game so that they both use the later, better engine.

Yeah, I did that using something called 'Baldur's Gate Tutu'. But it didn't change the game, which is what I really had trouble with. I really enjoyed the exploring element at first (liked the way that the world map was full of massive forests and mountain ranges to find) but eventually the game just seemed to boil down to the same old shit: go to a place, get in a scrap, sell the loot and get another clue as to where to go to next. It all feels incredibly shallow and lacking. Especially in comparison with Dragon Age. Most interactions with characters seem to consist of two options: 'Yes, I will hear your tale of woe, good sir,' or, 'No, begone foul cur!' And their tale of woe is usually just having something nicked off them by kobolds or something. Nothing as cool as getting a dwarf up the duff and having to provide for the child, as happened in Dragon Age. And nowhere near as many in-depth conversations and memorable characters.

Not getting the 'lots of options' thing either. I mean, sometimes you can let someone run away rather than killing them but for the most part it seems to be a brainless murderfest. Really disappointing after the nuanced and clever Planescape.

As for the characters, there are a handful of good ones in the first game, and more in the second. The interactions between them are one of the games strengths (Jan vs Minsc for example). It's a shame that some of the first ones you meet are a bit of a drag, but you don't have to stick with them. I wouldn't worry about trying to recruit them all either, if that's even possible.

I think I've fucked up with the characters because none of my current NPCs (Minsc and that woman that he hangs out with, the female thief from right at the start of the game and the husband/wife team you meet at the Friendly Arms Inn) talk to each other much. Or to me, except to say they like me (bloke from Friendly Arms, Minsc's friend) or that I'm shit (woman from friendly arms, apparently because I'm not neutral enough).

Actually, the lack of NPC interaction's another bug-bear. Apparently everyone loses the will to have a conversation the moment they meet me, which is slightly upsetting. Like the couple from the Friendly Arms Inn - they were mates with my adoptive dad, so why can I talk to them about their memories of him, or whether he'd warned them about the trouble I could be in? My swashbuckler (BG2 class, I think) has a +2 robe of charisma but I can't chat up the flirty thief that I met at the start of the game. And surely there's loads of comic potential in hanging out at a campfire, talking to a bloke with a miniature giant space hamster?

But no. I guess having 300 potential NPCs would've made that tricky, but I'd rather have a situation like Dragon Age - limited number of NPCs but all brilliantly characterised and written - than loads of options that amount to a bundle of different stats and voice samples.

The Witcher is well worth a go, if you haven't played that. it has a piss-poor combat system, crappy locations, and a shite game engine (NWN), but it does have some of the best characterisation in any RPG, a reasonable story with some interesting moral choices, and a fantastic dry sense of humour. I got some genuine belly laughs out of it.

I'll give that a go. I know it's well regarded but don't know any details other than the cards you get for having sex. But strong characterisation is a definite plus.

[Mister Six]

Well, the setting for both games is Forgotten Realms for Dungeons & Dragons/Advanced Dungeons. It's one of the most successful RPG settings and is largely very well regarded – this isn't to say that therefore it's brilliant but they were licensing something with a very large following, rather than starting from scratch, so weren't going to take any liberties and it is what it is.

Yeah, I know they were limited with what they could do and I wasn't demanding they introduce murderous cows or time-travellers or anything. But... well, I don't know. You'd think they could've put a bit more effort into the details even if the broad strokes were fixed. I just found a lot of it to be a fairly joyless and unimaginative setting that lacked any really strong characters or quests. Actually, now I think about it the best characters I encountered were the really minor ones dotted around the various maps[nb]The highlight was a suicidal bloke on the far left screen where

Spoiler alert

your adoptive dad dies

[close]

. I got some good, hearty chuckles out of him.[/nb] so maybe they could only get really creative where it 'didn't count'. Whatever the reason the game as a whole feels very by-the-numbers and unengaging to me.

[Cardinal Tit Storm]

Not getting the 'lots of options' thing either. I mean, sometimes you can let someone run away rather than killing them but for the most part it seems to be a brainless murderfest. Really disappointing after the nuanced and clever Planescape.

Lots of options when it comes to the Murdering, thieving, and magic, is really what I was getting at. It's definitely not as nuanced as later games when it comes to story options or PC-NPC interaction. In Baldur's Gate the amusement is in the NPC interactions with each other, and most of that is probably confined to the 2nd game. Not sure as they're mixed up together in my mind. There are certainly plenty of jokes about the miniature giant space hamster to be found.

KOTOR and Dragon Age are incremental improvements in terms of characterisation, but otherwise these games haven't really come all that far.

[Mister Six]

I'll maybe give BG2 a go at some point in the future. Dragon Age is light years ahead of BG in terms of characterisation, moral complexity and storytelling though. Actually, so are Planescape and Fallout and they're pretty much contemporaneous.