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Karma is a shitty, restrictive load of old toot

Started by Neil, November 08, 2010, 04:04:54 PM

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Neil

I can't really stand karma in games, it just stops me from doing things, and makes you worry that you're going to battle all the way through the game, and then end up with the crap ending. I can't really be bothered to play games more than once either, so it never adds any replayability.

Games are meant to be about escapism.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Please cite examples!

(I'm thinking Fable, Fallout etc, but you might not be)

Zero Gravitas

Sim City ruined karma in games for me, I just keep veering over to paragon having been taught that's the only way to make a city that doesn't melt-down every five minutes.

The only way I can be consistently evil in a game is if I create a female character, I'm not sure if it serves as a distancing device or I just think women are evil.

Neil

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 08, 2010, 04:11:07 PM
Please cite examples!

(I'm thinking Fable, Fallout etc, but you might not be)

I was being brief as I was on my phone, and I also thought I'd ignore all the obvious counter arguments :-)

Fallout, yeah good example.  Wandering through the wastelands for fucking hours, and then being scared to pinch something out of a desk.  Eventually just having to hack into people's puters to see what's on there, and then reloading my save game to stop my karma from being tarnished.  There probably is a fair old buffer in there, where you can get away with quite a bit, but it's no good for someone who wants perfection so strongly. 

Red Dead Redemption too - just had it this afternoon:  Do I shoot this guy and get the satisfaction of wrapping up the mission, or do I walk away and let everyone else take over, I don't lose out on some tedious achievement later down the line?  The latter, obviously. 

Karma opens up very interesting paths for games to take, where people and events will react in different ways, but with Mass Effect and whatever else, it still doesn't really seem worth it currently.  Your mileage varies, then?

Neil

And of course, I disabled that fucking bomb in Megaton, meaning I now have to watch it on YouTube, or face another 100+ hours of gameplay - something which I won't be doing in this lifetime.  Maybe in the next reincarnation, unless I come back as a welk, due to accidentaly pulling a knife on someone I was trying to save from a pack of cougars.

I should probably just learn to embrace it, though.  So I miss stuff out, and it's torture to a completist, but it does arguably give the game a better sense of 'reality.'  There are more consequences to your actions.  I'm just still not entirely sure I want any, in games. 

Zero Gravitas

it doesn't take long at all to blow up megaton, it can be completed almost straight away if you just stick all your skill points in explosives it from the start.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Scripted consequences in Fallout are almost deliberately hyper-entertaining. Setting off the bomb and letting the zombies run riot in Tenpenny Towers are just classic moments. It must be the way that they really make you feel like it was your decision, rather than something the game had to go to. Wonderful.

The Karma aspect never bothers me, as my Karma tends to balance out in these sort of games, being a thieving bastard.

Famous Mortimer

You made a choice, and can't go back. I like that. I like games where your actions have some sort of effect on the environment - one of the many things that stopped me from playing World of Warcraft was that no matter how many times you cleared monster X from field Y, he was back there ten minutes later.

But in Fallout 3 (and New Vegas, I guess) what you do has an effect.

El Unicornio, mang

I remember the first time I came across karma in a game, it was GTA IV, and I was given the choice of shooting a man off a rooftop or becoming his friend. I had no idea what to do, and ended up getting so angry and frustrated at having to make the decision that I shot him.

chand

InFamous had a karma system, which didn't really add much. You can be evil or good, but there's no point flipping between them, you have to pick one at the start and then that's pretty much it; your powers level up as you do more good/evil deeds...if you've been good the first five choices then it's a waste of time doing anything bad afterwards. Some people played it through twice, once as good, once as evil, but it doesn't make a significant enough difference to be worth it for me. Still a really good game, but it's way too binary a choice, no nuance at all.

Tokyo Sexwhale

I struggle between having to see everything a game has to offer (slight OCD + getting my money's worth) and appreciating dilemmas that have differing consequences.

I finally finished Fallout 3 at the weekend - although it was a bit unexpected, and I didn't realise you couldn't just play on afterwards.  So I ended up reloading an earlier save and having a look around the northern part of the map, which was virtually unexplored by me.

I generally play good characters, because I suspect the game makers design things it so that route gives you the most complete experience.  Has anyone found this to be different?

What are the great dilemmas in games?  One of the most uncomfortable I've experienced is in Baldur's Gate 2 - where at one point you have to co-operate with a child-killer to escape from jail.  My character was a paladin too!

AsparagusTrevor

I do feel bad about being naughty in games where there's the choice. I didn't fire a single bullet in MW2's 'No Russian' for example. I'm on my second playthrough of Fallout 3 and I'm still being a good little boy, didn't blow the Megaton bomb up, same as last time, using all the nice dialogue choices and not stealing things. Bioshock was different, I mainly harvested the little sisters first time round as I wanted the (seemingly) easy route. I did play a second time and make sure to save them all, and the patience balances it out and I don't have to feel guilty about killing that particular collection of textured polygons.

As for exploring in games, I just wish I had the time to play games like Fallout 3 for 100+ hours but I really don't, and there's so many games, TV shows and movies to dedicate my limited time to.

Good thread. I've binned off every single role-playing/adventure game which had 'unscripted' consequences. I just want to see every bit of goodness in a game by being GOOD AT THE GAME not by giving it the full 'Choose Your Own Adventure' bollocks. Actually, that's why I mostly hate role-playing/adventure games: they seem to reward persistence over being GOOD AT THE GAME. I prefer to die a load of times figuring out the game mechanics until I'm GOOD (enough) AT THE GAME to get past whatever bit. Anyway, that's a separate issue.

Once I had to choose whether to harvest or save in Bioshock, I just stopped playing. Heard it gets pretty boring after that, anyway. Oh, I also hate any game where I feel I wasted too much ammo on a boss. I just want to go back and do it again until I'm GOOD AT THE GAME and can beat it using 10% of the ammo. Otherwise, that wasted ammo will irritate me for hours and spoil the remainder of the game.

Zero Gravitas

Quote from: The Boston Crab on November 08, 2010, 09:04:07 PMOnce I had to choose whether to harvest or save in Bioshock, I just stopped playing. Heard it gets pretty boring after that, anyway.

Would you kindly tell me that's supposed to be a joke.


madhair60

The original Deus Ex made me feel genuinely remorseful once, or about as close to genuine emotion as games can get me.

There was a brief, unimportant sequence, wherein the player character could trade a chocolate bar for some information from a young child.  I gave the kid the chocolate, got the information, then took out my pistol and shot him in the head.  To my surprise, he cried out and fell over dead.

See, most games I was aware of up to that point do _not_ let you indiscriminately murder children.  I was assuming he'd be bulletproof.  But no, I shot him, took back the chocolate bar, and was able to continue with no consequences I knew of.

I reloaded my quicksave and let him live.  I've never done that before or since.

Big Jack McBastard

I also shot Dwane and only ever heard his dialogue on a mate's game which was a bit weird, like Neil I am a bit obsessed with seeing everything a game has to offer. (on the games I like) and I think that was probably the first time I'd unknowingly but happily cut a potentially useful NPC loose right at the start and never replayed the game to see what he was like. I suppose he's a minor component though and there's too many bloody people ringing you in that game anyway...

Mass Effect is a bit of a scary one when you start looking for big changes in the story you see a about 5 in the first game at first glance (besides being male/female good/evil or in-between, not to mention picking your own background), Kill/Keep Wrex, Kill/Save Council, Let Ash/Kaiden die, Kill/Save the Rachnii etc, but then taking your chap into ME2 and seeing the different outcomes and nuances you suddenly realise there's a shit load more that are all accounted for and backed up.

Did you cop off with Liara and then dump her for Jack (or someone else) like I did, Liara wouldn't mind a chat about that.
Did you punch that reporter in the gob the first time?
Did you save the colony in 'X' well the chaps from 'X' are now rife with disease and are being unethically treated.
Gotten a letter of thanks for getting that guy his wife's body back or tell him to GTFO?
Helped the biotic colonists or wiped them out?
Let that secretary of Saren's go only to find her involved in something more dodgy?
Bust the dodgy dealings of the fiddling manager or sell the undercover investigator down the river?

And so on and so on.

They're not huge game changers in terms of gameplay but then you can let nearly every one of your crew die in ME2, including those you might be trying to love up, make decisions about the Geth and Quarians that might bite you on the ass later. nick or chuck the Reapers tech. and look into sorting the Genophage out one way or the other the list goes on and on. With the functionality to port that save into the next game the possible repercussions are myriad and it hurts my head to think of all the permutations you could have. I've played 4 different characters through ME1 and kept those saves because I wanted to see a bit of a wider scope when it came to the next 2 games.

I'm nigh on finished with my third playthrough of ME2 using those characters and though I am getting a bit sick of it (might leave it till the next one is nearly due) it is impressive to see how different you can be.

The Karma in Fallout is elastic as fuck though, you can be a prince of goodness in the wastes for 99% of the game and then go and nick 100 pencils and be called evil incarnate. Though it's just as easy to swing it the other way if you make the slightest effort.

Quote from: madhair60 on November 08, 2010, 09:12:05 PM
See, most games I was aware of up to that point do _not_ let you indiscriminately murder children.

Deus Ex continued their tradition of bullet fodder kids in the second one where, if you were siding with the Luddite crowd and were so inclined you could wipe out an entire classroom of nanotech enhanced little girls.

Quote from: Zero Gravitas on November 08, 2010, 09:10:02 PM
Would you kindly tell me that's supposed to be a joke.

That's genuinely what I heard from some guys and to be honest, it was starting to get a bit too choice-y. I hate having to choose weapons in games because I never know what I'll need later on and feel that I'm inevitably missing out on some other cool shit. The only such game I've replayed to test out all the different weapons and shit is Resident Evil 4 which was just more fun than Bioshock and had similar 'kill in several different ways' stuff and despite being significantly more limited was a lot more fun and multiple kills worked the way they did in your imagination, unlike Bioshock which seemed to follow this pattern:

"Let me just tempt this guy into the water and electrocute him...nope, he's run off for no reason...Sod it, I'll just throw out some random flames. Oh, that was lucky, he was standing in a puddle of petrol. Why that would be there, I've no idea. Harvest or save? QUIT."

madhair60

Quote from: Big Jack McBastard on November 08, 2010, 09:19:55 PMDeus Ex continued their tradition of bullet fodder kids in the second one

haha what there was never a second one

haha shut up

there was never a sequel to deus ex

Zero Gravitas

#18
Quote from: The Boston Crab on November 08, 2010, 09:26:14 PM
That's genuinely what I heard from some guys and to be honest, it was starting to get a bit too choice-y. I hate having to choose weapons in games because I never know what I'll need later on and feel that I'm inevitably missing out on some other cool shit...

There's the constant ability to re-jig and tailor your loadout in Bioshock you never have to throw something away you can always swap skills back in later, as you slowly build up a selection of skills one of the main strengths of the game is finessing combinations to discover what works best with the current crop of dangers.

But you know, whatever your friends say is fine. If you don't want to choose like a man, be content to obey like a slave.

Quote from: Zero Gravitas on November 08, 2010, 09:37:00 PM
But you know, whatever your friends say is fine. If you don't want to choose like a man, be content to obey like a slave.

I'll cut your throat. Also, great line. I'll wheel it out next time my girlfriend is undecided at a restaurant.

As for Bioshock, I'll stop being glib for a moment and just say that I find the shooting bits boring and clunky. They take me out of what could be a fantastic Metroid Prime-style puzzle/exploration game with arcade elements.

Big Jack McBastard

Quote from: madhair60 on November 08, 2010, 09:28:37 PM
there was never a sequel to deus ex

Heh, hopefully Human Revolution won't require another layer of selective forgetfulness.

Big Jack McBastard

I suppose the length of modern RPGs and action games can be constrictive to people with limited free time, many will rarely be replayed and thus a lot of their nuances and hidden gems go undiscovered and may end up leaving a much different impression on one player to the next.

In those situations I recommend tactical saving, this mostly applies to Fallout but explore as much as you can and then get to the big crossroads and save before they begin, do it a few times at major plot branches and you've got a stable starting point to go through the endings (read: 'the rampage you desire') rather than carving another game out from scratch.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quotethey seem to reward persistence over being GOOD AT THE GAME. I prefer to die a load of times figuring out the game mechanics until I'm GOOD (enough) AT THE GAME to get past whatever bit

How is that not persistence?

Harpo Speaks

In Fallout 3 I don't think the Karma level is such a problem, as it doesn't take too much to move between good and bad. I was really good but then I wanted to test out Jericho as a follower, and he won't join you if you're too good. So I just stole until my karma was reduced to the required amount.

Once he'd joined me then I began to build my Karma back up.

I find I enjoy computer RPGs best if I approach them the same way I would a pen and paper RPG. That is, do what the character in question should do, and make a conscious effort to try and not "game the system". You're unlikely to see everything most of these games have to offer in one playthrough anyway - might as well forget about getting things "right". For example, when Jericho died carrying a ton of loot I couldn't carry in my evil Fallout 3 game, I could just have reloaded, but it was much more satisfying to feast on his corpse and leave him to rot. In this way karma gives you something to aim for and doesn't detract from the element of escapism. The karma system in Fallout 3 is pretty poorly implemented really, and you can certainly abuse it if you want, but you can also choose not to.

In most cases I don't think a karma or alignment scale is something the player needs to see, and it's better if they don't. Neither Dragon Age: Origins nor The Witcher have one, and you're given difficult moral choices to make with no real clue as to how things will pan out in the long run. That is a much better way of doing things. It's more realistic and helps maintain the illusion that it's not just a glorified "choose your own adventure" game you're playing (which it is).

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 09, 2010, 12:19:19 PM
How is that not persistence?

Good point. I didn't make things clear. I find that RPGs reward 'simply playing for longer' whereas, say, a fighting game or platformer or sports game requires you to BE GOOD AT THE GAME, i.e. improve, not grind.

Zetetic

Dragon Age does this right, in my opinion as well. Well, does it right in that there's no karma, there's just how you act and how different people react to that.

Metro 2033 does it right too, although it'd make Neil angry.
Spoiler alert
It gives you bugger all clue that there's any kind of 'karma' variable in the game, and then your final decision is effected by the relatively minor decisions you've taken all the way through.
[close]

You're right that game's are meant to be escapism, but many people's form of escapism is to inhabit a character. If you act like an massive twat most of the time, then I don't think it's a problem for the game to infer that you're a massive twat.

The problem for me is when the only consequence is an achievement or a cutscene (although Metro 2033 gets a pass for irritating the hell out of people in a slightly novel way). Bioshock particularly, where a back-of-the-envelope calculation quickly indicated that there was very little reason to harvest, as regards personal gain. That's not even a choice of whether I'm selfish and immoral or not, it's whether I'm a bit of a short-sighted sadist or not.

Oh, actually STALKER: ShOC's pretty good, despite Karma really being cutscene fodder. There's are basically three endings, but one of them consists of
Spoiler alert
simply visiting the Wish Granter
[close]
.
Spoiler alert
What you ask for and what you get then depends on karma and cash, both as indications of who you are.
[close]

Deus Ex is a good one as well. But since it's practically a masterpiece in player character choice and action in every way, that's not a surprise!

So. Stop being a completist, or play games that you can reasonably complete (that is, that have no choice beyond means to an end).

Hanslow

Jeez, if making a decision on a game is so hard, how do you guys make it through life?

Mister Six

I think that people are approaching RPGs in the wrong frame of mind. You're not playing them to 'be good at them'[nb]Though TBC is wrong about all RPGs being about grinding - Dragon Age and Baldur's Gate absolutely encourage players to develop tactics based on their team's abilities, particularly spells.[/nb] or to mine every last bit of code out of them. You're playing them to explore a world, interact with it in the way that you choose and - as the 'RP' bit implies - play a role. Karma systems are a useful way of having that world react organically and realistically.

If you're going to Boston Crab your way through a game then you need to forget all about RPGs and stick with something actiony like Bayonetta, which rewards players for playing exceptionally well (where an RPG wouldn't care whether you blitzed through a mob because of your superior tactics or limped away from the fight with just a sliver of health) and is completely linear.

That said, I think there are some karma systems that are less effective than others.  Fallout: NV does it right by basically ignoring the proper good/bad system held over from the last game[nb]I was a bit miffed that I became a reviled monster of the wastelands for nicking stimpacks left, right and centre but it wasn't hard to change things - all I had to do was take the 'good' karmic choices in a couple of quests and I was right as rain.[/nb] and instead focusing on individual karma meters for various locations and factions. It makes the game far more flexible and reactive to your decisions and improves immersiveness tenfold... at least, until the endless bugs and glitches catch up with you. Bioshock, on the other hand, cocks it up by basically having a binary, 'You are a saint!'/'You are a cunt!' system that only changes the ending of the game and a couple of interactions within it. It's clunky and unrealistic and detracts from the world the game's trying to develop.

Barberism

I read an article that echoed my sentiments about KOTOR. I wanted to play as Sith but this would often mean having to ally myself with slavers or refusing to help some poor alien being attacked by racists.

Look, I may be an evil Dark Lord of the Sith. But that doesn't mean I don't have a sense of justice. I despise racism and slavery. I just don't beleive in trials or juries. How does electrocuting a gang of slavers with the force (most of whom were perhaps forced into this life by poverty) earn me light side points?

I don't like how Karma in some games is based on 80s cartoon notions of Good and Evil. I would just like games to be a bit more nuanced. If I rescue some slaves by using force lighting to sheer the flesh from their captor's bodies and then laugh maniacally as I use my lightsabre to chop them into little pieces then I would like Dark Side points. I rescued the slaves, but in a very gory and psychotic way.

I am evil. But as long as you pay your tithes and provide me with 1000 of your most beautful women I will spare your planet an orbital bombardment. I'm on a quest to bring order to the galaxy. I may employ an iron boot or 100 foot tall battle mechs that spit laser death to do it but it's not like I get a kick out of people's suffering. I don't like bullies - If I see one I will drop an At-At on him.

Anyway. Great game. But I didn't like the way I was forced to do either an evil thing or a good thing. Instead of choosing to resolve something in a good  or an evil way.