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PC Gaming, where are you

Started by Shoulders?-Stomach!, November 10, 2010, 02:35:40 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

HappyTree


Slaaaaabs


Mister Six

Quote from: Slaaaaabs on November 11, 2010, 05:10:44 PMWhere did you read that? If anything Bungie will drop the graphical niceties down a notch to allow their AI and other niceties to function.

I can't remember now and can't find the link, so it's probably best to assume I'm talking bullshit.

HappyTree

Quote from: Slaaaaabs on November 11, 2010, 05:16:20 PM
You can fix PCs yourself!

True, but Microsoft replaced my Xbox and Xbox 360 for free!

Still Not George

Quote from: Mister Six on November 11, 2010, 05:47:17 PM
I can't remember now and can't find the link, so it's probably best to assume I'm talking bullshit.

This sort of thing tends to stem from interviews with devs where they say things like "Well, the AI was actually a bit better but we couldn't maintain the framerate while making all those decisions so we had to scale it down" and fanboys interpreting that to mean that it was scaled down for the sake of fancy graphics, when what he actually means is that the game was CPU bound.

Puffin Chunks

Quote from: Slaaaaabs on November 11, 2010, 05:10:44 PM
Piracy on the PS3 is actually easier than it is on the 360 at the moment. You can connect one of several devices (smart phones, programmable USB sticks, CALCULATORS!) via USB and run a payload package at boot to enable unsigned game booting and Blu-ray spoofing.

Is that so? I can't google anything now as I'm behind a pretty strict firewall, but I know as recently as about 3 months ago the PS3 was still deemed unhackable to a point that you could run copied games on it. I know that people found exploits in the Linux support that PS3 had, but Sony closed that up sharpish (i.e. no Linux support anymore).

Certainly proof of copied games on a torrent site is not proof that the system can run copied games or has been hacked.

If it has finally been hacked so that you can run copied games, I still think that's pretty impressive. 4 years from release until hacked is quite a window. How long did it take the X360? a couple of months?

PC  games tend to get hacked within days of release. Sometimes prior to official release. As stated earlier, running a copied game on a PC is as simple as downloading a file, installing and running it. It is rarely this easy on consoles where some kind of hardware modification is often required. This will always have an effect on profit margins.

Speaking as a PC owner and an owner of numerous consoles both past and present: I have the skills to be able to hack my consoles. Anyone with a soldering iron and an internet connection can, yet I never have. To be honest, I have never had the inclination. Have I run copied PC games that I haven't paid for? Of course. They're right there at the click of a mouse. Is this wrong? Yes, but it definitely affects profit margins. I don't think piracy on consoles v PCs can really be compared. They are poles apart.

Zetetic

Quote from: Puffin Chunks on November 11, 2010, 11:31:29 PM
I know that people found exploits in the Linux support that PS3 had, but Sony closed that up sharpish (i.e. no Linux support anymore).
Really? I've never seen any evidence that anyone outside Sony found such exploits, nor indeed evidence that Sony actually did so. They removed it as a preemptive measure seemed to be the line.

Puffin Chunks

Quote from: Zetetic on November 11, 2010, 11:50:14 PM
Really? I've never seen any evidence that anyone outside Sony found such exploits, nor indeed evidence that Sony actually did so. They removed it as a preemptive measure seemed to be the line.

You could be right actually. I thought that the geohot hack exploited linux, but he may have actually published it after Sony removed Linux support, by using old firmware. I guess he was possibly tipped off that the exploits were available by Sony's removal of support.


_____
Edit: Actually, the ever reliable wikipedia says that Sony removed OtherOS support as a response to the geohot hack:

QuoteHe [George Hotz] is also noted for jailbreaking the iPhone OS and developing a method for cracking the PlayStation 3, causing Sony to remove the "OtherOS" feature from existing models in response

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hotz

Of course a wikipedia article proves nothing.

Zetetic

Seems to be right though. Should be on the OtherOS article at least...
(By which I mean, I should add it when I can be bothered.)

Quote from: Puffin Chunks on November 11, 2010, 11:31:29 PM
Is that so? I can't google anything now as I'm behind a pretty strict firewall, but I know as recently as about 3 months ago the PS3 was still deemed unhackable to a point that you could run copied games on it. I know that people found exploits in the Linux support that PS3 had, but Sony closed that up sharpish (i.e. no Linux support anymore).

A working hack was actually released two or three months ago, so you must have just missed it -- it was a USB dongle that lets you run commercial games and homebrew software off a hard drive. (Side note: apparently it's nothing to do with Linux support at all; instead it exploits a flaw in the code that looks for USB devices when you boot up.) However I'm pretty sure the loophole has already been fixed in the latest firmware update.

AsparagusTrevor

Quote from: HappyTree on November 11, 2010, 05:14:48 PMConsoles work, PCs don't.
My PC works. My PC before that one worked. The one before that did too. My Media Centre PC works. My PC at work works. My wife's laptop works. Her sister's laptop works. My mum's laptop works. My dad's PC works. My uncle's PC works. My auntie's laptop works. My best mate's PC works.

HappyTree

Yes but in the context of the subject of the thread "PC gaming" did all your relatives' PCs work easily and without the need for fiddling around to get contemporary games to run with no issues? I suspect not.

What kinds of games does your auntie like to play?

Ignatius_S

Quote from: HappyTree on November 12, 2010, 11:08:35 AM
Yes but in the context of the subject of the thread "PC gaming" did all your relatives' PCs work easily and without the need for fiddling around to get contemporary games to run with no issues? I suspect not.

What kinds of games does your auntie like to play?
In my own case, I've had no trouble installing PC games and getting them to run on my set-up – neither have I experienced problems with most of my consoles.

Looking at the the Fallout New Vegas thread, the people who are complaining most about severe bugs and performance issues (to the point where one person has given up until an uncoming patch comes out) are all playing console versions. On a slight tangent, I'm able to mod the game to a considerable degree, such improving performance and to continue playing after the main quest has finished - a nice bonus that I wouldn't get with other versions. Going back to bugs and issues, after the GOTY edition of F3 came out and the game had been patched for all versions, the platform that appeared to experience the most bugs was on the PS3.

Consoles are like any piece of technolgical consumer kit and there will be teething problems - the 360 was no exception: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems and I remember in the old gaming mega-thread people having some of these problems (and some unlucky folk had problems with replacement units) – plus, some will just break down like any piece of hardware.

According to your earlier post you've brought two Microsoft games consoles that had to be replaced – doesn't sound 100% trouble-free, reliable gaming to me.

AsparagusTrevor

All my relatives play some form of game, whether it's modern fancy 3D stuff or puzzles or pool or footie. My auntie, she plays PopCap style-stuff mainly, she isn't computer savvy but she can figure out how to buy downloadable games like that.

Are problems with PC games really so common? I rarely come across them beyond insignificant glitches which happen on console games too (see Fallout 3, Red Dead Redemption for examples).


Quote from: Ignatius_S on November 12, 2010, 11:28:38 AMIn my own case, I've had no trouble installing PC games and getting them to run on my set-up – neither have I experienced problems with most of my consoles.

Looking at the the Fallout New Vegas thread, the people who are complaining most about severe bugs and performance issues (to the point where one person has given up until an uncoming patch comes out) are all playing console versions. On a slight tangent, I'm able to mod the game to a considerable degree, such improving performance and to continue playing after the main quest has finished - a nice bonus that I wouldn't get with other versions. Going back to bugs and issues, after the GOTY edition of F3 came out and the game had been patched for all versions, the platform that appeared to experience the most bugs was on the PS3.

Consoles are like any piece of technolgical consumer kit and there will be teething problems - the 360 was no exception: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems and I remember in the old gaming mega-thread people having some of these problems (and some unlucky folk had problems with replacement units) – plus, some will just break down like any piece of hardware.

According to your earlier post you've brought two Microsoft games consoles that had to be replaced – doesn't sound 100% trouble-free, reliable gaming to me.
Good points.

Slaaaaabs

Quote from: Puffin Chunks on November 11, 2010, 11:31:29 PM
Is that so? I can't google anything now as I'm behind a pretty strict firewall, but I know as recently as about 3 months ago the PS3 was still deemed unhackable to a point that you could run copied games on it. I know that people found exploits in the Linux support that PS3 had, but Sony closed that up sharpish (i.e. no Linux support anymore).

Certainly proof of copied games on a torrent site is not proof that the system can run copied games or has been hacked.

If it has finally been hacked so that you can run copied games, I still think that's pretty impressive. 4 years from release until hacked is quite a window. How long did it take the X360? a couple of months?

Check www.psgroove.com for more info. All sorts of interesting stuff going on aside from the piracy. Homebrew software is in its infancy but it seems they have access to the whole show now, much like the original XBox.

Mister Six

Quote from: Ignatius_S on November 12, 2010, 11:28:38 AMLooking at the the Fallout New Vegas thread, the people who are complaining most about severe bugs and performance issues (to the point where one person has given up until an uncoming patch comes out) are all playing console versions.

To be fair, Obsidian's a bit of an outlier in the quality control department.

Mods and fan patches actually make the PC gaming experience more fun and value for money than the console one, yes. I wish such things were available on console versions.

QuoteConsoles are like any piece of technolgical consumer kit and there will be teething problems - the 360 was no exception: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems and I remember in the old gaming mega-thread people having some of these problems (and some unlucky folk had problems with replacement units) – plus, some will just break down like any piece of hardware.

According to your earlier post you've brought two Microsoft games consoles that had to be replaced – doesn't sound 100% trouble-free, reliable gaming to me.

I think the point is that hardware problems on consoles are finite and identifiable. PC games do run the risk of having infinite permutations of software and hardware conflicts buggering the whole thing up, not to mention the increased risk of viruses and the like due to the machine being available on the web. Obviously these risks are minimised these days thanks to virus protection and more stable operating systems (again, we'll treat Vista as an outlier) but it's still something that a lot of people don't want to have to bother with when they come home from Game with a copy of Gears of War.

Ignatius_S

Quote from: Mister Six on November 12, 2010, 12:43:33 PM
To be fair, Obsidian's a bit of an outlier in the quality control department.

Mods and fan patches actually make the PC gaming experience more fun and value for money than the console one, yes. I wish such things were available on console versions....
Sure – and I'm certain that we can all think of a game that played better on one console and not so well on the PC and this backs up my point even more: one shouldn't expect trouble-free gaming as a given.

The main reason I went with Fallout is because I'm playing NV so much – but as I was typing it occurred to me is that the mod element is a real bonus. That said, I haven't really played that many games that I've modded – maybe because I'm a bit old-fashioned and think that you shouldn't need to!

While we're on the topic some people who are very much into their gaming do look down on consoles because of the lack of modding (and I'd say most don't see consoles as something that a 'serious' gamer would use) – but maybe that's part of the shape of things to come?

Quote from: Mister Six on November 12, 2010, 12:43:33 PM
...I think the point is that hardware problems on consoles are finite and identifiable. PC games do run the risk of having infinite permutations of software and hardware conflicts buggering the whole thing up, not to mention the increased risk of viruses and the like due to the machine being available on the web. Obviously these risks are minimised these days thanks to virus protection and more stable operating systems (again, we'll treat Vista as an outlier) but it's still something that a lot of people don't want to have to bother with when they come home from Game with a copy of Gears of War.
Personally, I've think I see this as the old closed versus open environment argument – and I've have found it amusing when friends/people I know have, as an example, slated Apple's iOS for being so closed and lavish praise on then openness of Android, before extolling the PS3  environment experience.

When it comes to technical problems, I would certainly agree the issues would be potentially greater (and I suspect more common) with a PC – and in fact, I was wrote a poorly received column about the virtues of console gaming, which touched upon that and which I found consoles attractively low-maintenance (e.g. no worries about upgrading until the next model comes out). On the flip side, if something goes wrong with a computer, it might be something that is easy to fix yourself and I wouldn't say that's necessarily going to be possible with a console (then again, the owner might not want to do it themselves).

However, consoles are getting increasingly complex and it's all rather different to when all you needed to was to hook it to the telly and you're good to go. It used to be the case that one advantage over computers was that you didn't need to patch console games – games when they shipped were supposed to work. Similarly, you're expected to install firmware these days. Admittedly, this isn't rocket science but it's not as 'plug and play' as it used to be.

The mention of viruses is a good one as there have been virus scares on the PS3 (which I think have been have all been baloney) but there have been security holes with Home that Sony have had to fill and these are fears (real or not) that some console now feel when they wouldn't have in the past.

HappyTree

Well I guess we're all subject to our own experiences. If you have had trouble-free PC gaming of all the latest games then I'm delighted for you. Such has not been the case for me at all and I find consoles much more reliable, even given the single time each one failed and was replaced for free. If I could say that my PCs had only ever failed once and were completely replaced for free, all postage included, then I'd be agreeing with you enthusiastically.

Mister Six

Quote from: Ignatius_S on November 12, 2010, 02:22:20 PMPersonally, I've think I see this as the old closed versus open environment argument – and I've have found it amusing when friends/people I know have, as an example, slated Apple's iOS for being so closed and lavish praise on then openness of Android, before extolling the PS3  environment experience.

I think that's kind of justifiable, though. PCs have, rightly or wrongly, set a standard for home computing that says users should be able to upgrade their systems to suit their needs - and since home computers are so adaptable in their potential usage that kind of makes sense. Mp3s and movies aside, consoles are ultimately about playing games. Anything that gets in the way of that process isn't doing the user a favour.

QuoteWhile we're on the topic some people who are very much into their gaming do look down on consoles because of the lack of modding (and I'd say most don't see consoles as something that a 'serious' gamer would use) – but maybe that's part of the shape of things to come?

I certainly hope so, though I imagine that the lack of peripherals would make mod tools tricky to use on consoles. It'll also mean Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft letting down the barriers and allowing user-created uploads to flourish, and given the size and potentially controversial content I can understand why they might be reluctant to do that (it's one thing having a private site hosting a Fallout mod where you have to rape Michael Jackson to death - it's another when it's hosted by Microsoft themselves). The server costs alone could be massive, not to mention the amount of moderators and testers required to make sure the content is acceptable and not dangerous to the system. It could end up being the AOL upload boards all over again.

Which isn't to say it shouldn't happen, I just can't see it happening within this generation.

As for the 'serious gamer' thing - well that's a whole other topic, but I'm quite happy not to be included in any bracket that comprises 'serious gamers'. What I will say is that the conception of consoles being for action gamers who can't handle ludic or narrative complexity is constantly being eroded, with the likes of Mass Effect and Dragon Age both selling millions of copies. A large percentage of console gamers seem to be folks like me - people who used to play PC games (including complex RPGs and the like) regularly six-to-10 years ago but have migrated because they've grown weary of spending a fortune upgrading their kit every couple of years, or because office-bound jobs mean that playing games on a TV with a controller is preferable to playing one on a monitor with a mouse.

QuoteHowever, consoles are getting increasingly complex and it's all rather different to when all you needed to was to hook it to the telly and you're good to go. It used to be the case that one advantage over computers was that you didn't need to patch console games – games when they shipped were supposed to work. Similarly, you're expected to install firmware these days. Admittedly, this isn't rocket science but it's not as 'plug and play' as it used to be.

It's still pretty plug-and-play, though. If I buy a new Xbox I can hook it up to the telly and play games instantaneously (very few games have patches that are vital). Alternatively it takes all of a couple of minutes to hook it up to a local wifi connection (easily equivalent to PCs, in my experience) and all patches and updates are done automatically and quickly. Horses for courses, though, I guess.

small_world

Quote from: HappyTree on November 11, 2010, 05:14:48 PM
Consoles work, PCs don't.

Just on this point alone, I've bought at least five PC games that have been shoved into my PC once, found that there is some incompatible hardware/software issue, and have from then on, sat on a shelf. In fact now I'm thinking of it, it's probably way over ten.
I've never bought a console game that hasn't worked.

I do agree that modding is what drives the PC gaming market now. It used to be great graphics/sound it then moved on to on-line play, MMORPG's becoming the main driving force. Now consoles are catching up on that.
And I mentioned in another thread that I believe that the next gen of consoles will be so alike to PC's that modding will become the norm on consoles. As will your everyday web stuff.
(This was posted from my xBox)


HappyTree

I had fun messing around with the mods for Oblivion on the PC. But in the end it ruined the game for me as it was far too easy to use the cheats in the code interface. And I am a weak man. Console games tend to force me to actually play them, though I still look for cheats. My favourites are the no clipping ones that allow me to walk and float outside of the authorised game environment. Break free!

MojoJojo

Aren't domestic PCs in decline now? At least in terms of the big box sat under a desk. Someone else said they just have a laptop now, and I'm the same. Laptops are pretty cheap compared to desktops now. For example - the cheapest home user laptop on the dell website is £329. The cheapest desktop with a monitor is £399. Sure I haven't fiddled with the options, and the desktop machine probably has a lot better specs. But why would I bother when the laptop does pretty much everything I would want a PC to do, with the exception of gaming?[nb]Actually, because I want to work from home more and remote desktopping into a machine with a 24inch screen from a 17inch laptop is a pain. But I think I'm pretty lucky in having this reason. [/nb]. And the laptop doesn't require any space.
Quote from: AsparagusTrevorThat's the thing though. I am never going to buy an Xbox. I'd never buy a PS3 without backwards compatibility for my PS2 games (which I could emulate on PC anyway). By denying me any games I'd buy on my chosen platform (which was certainly a viable gaming platform still going strong when I built my current PC) they're losing out on my money anyway. I'm sure I'm not the only person in the world, or even my area that feels the same.

Do you mind if I ask why you're so against getting an Xbox or PS3? You say you won't get a PS3 without backwards compatibility and then say you can emulate the PS2 on your PC in the same sentence! Why not do that then? It's just a bit of an odd thing to complain about, when there is such an obvious solution. Like insisting on shopping at Aldi and complaining that you don't have much choice when it comes to caviar.

HappyTree

I got my desktop because it has a large fan and space so it won't overheat. My last laptop died because of overheating and the one I'm on now is struggling after only 4 months' use. I suspect overheating too. I get the impression that this is a problem with laptops in general but I'm sure someone will be along to say it ain't so.

I just feel desktops are more reliable but I do hope they will eventually sort the laptops out and they will usurp the desktop.

Zetetic

Quote from: HappyTree on November 13, 2010, 05:34:48 PM
I get the impression that this is a problem with laptops in general but I'm sure someone will be along to say it ain't so.
Sure. None of my main computers, all laptops, from 1993 onwards have died from overheating. (If anything the first, a PowerBook Duo 230 probably died from being frozen overnight.) It's not impossible that they've sterilized me though...

(Oh, but I certainly have seen various laptops that, even if they haven't induced actual death, seem to capable of damaging screen connections and the like from heat expansion.)

HappyTree

My old Gateway 486 laptop was fine, built like a brick and lasted for years. Maybe some manufacturers make them too slim and I've just been unlucky. The one that overheated to death was a Fujitsu-Siemens, but that was in a very hot place. During the summer I had to train a desk fan on it for it to work (no aircon).


Mister Six

No aircon? Yikes. Where were you living.

wasp_f15ting

PC is high fidelity gaming.

Even 4 year old graphics cards will destroy the specs of the PS3 and 360.

I enjoy gaming on all three platforms. The assumption that PC gaming is dead is rather stupid, the biggest game on planet earth and the most profitable world of warcraft is on the PC. With 12 million active subscribers; destroying games sales everywhere this model draws from the average addict around 100 USD a year. There is noting like it..

We have steam on the other hand releasing massive titles like star craft and diablo in the coming months. PC gaming is not relevant to the plebeian gamer, but those who remain loyal gamers exist. The video cards being churned out each year are testament to the hardware market too. There are still millions of active PC gamers, but they keenly stay under the radar, hacking away making their own mods and scripting well known games. The PC gaming experience is the ultimate gaming experience. Though the majority of games studios are pandering to the console twits the very best of the best remain tied to the platform. Even Crysis 2.0 developers clearly state they have more head room on the PC to make a game that will be superior on the PC.

I have become lazy with age and got new vegas on my 360, I find it so ugly I can't go past the first stages. I played fall out 3 on the PC with higher textures, and supremely high resolutions. It was such a better experience.

The fact remains the PS3 and 360 both output a shitty 1280 x 720p image (if you are lucky) then this is upscaled to 1080p. These are lowly shite stats for any decent gaming machine. Until PS4 and XBox 720 reach 1080p fidelity they will always be inferior systems to play around on; to the trained eye.

MojoJojo

Hehe.

Every one knows the only true gamers are Amiga gamers

chand

Quote from: wasp_f15ting on November 13, 2010, 08:02:17 PMPC gaming is not relevant to the plebeian gamer, but those who remain loyal gamers exist.

Oh yeah, I think that's one of the reasons I mostly stick to consoles. PC gamers always sound like assholes.

wasp_f15ting

Quote from: chand on November 13, 2010, 11:00:37 PM
Oh yeah, I think that's one of the reasons I mostly stick to consoles. PC gamers always sound like assholes.

;-) I Jest.. however if you have one match of multiplayer on halo reach or cod bops on xbl most of the people who talk on there are little 10 year olds..