Deus Ex

[samadriel]

Crikey, this game sure is yellow.  When I snuck into The Hive, I thought "Finally, this should look a little different", but no, it's a yellow-coloured club!

I'm quite liking it so far, just a few little niggles really.  In particular, I don't like how hand-to-hand takedowns eat up your energy; throughout the whole game I've only ever had one block of energy full, and while I know some foodstuffs are supposed to fill your energy up, I don't remember them ever actually working (plus they're annoying inventory filler). Any ideas on how to maintain energy above one bar?  Do I just have to give up on melee takedowns?

[Famous Mortimer]

Samadriel, that's one of my issues with it as well. It seems energy only ever charges to the first bar, no matter how many you have, and there's no aug that allows you to charge it past one - so you have to eat in order to get it past there. I hope it's a bug, to be honest, as it's really annoying. I got the recharge speed aug up as high as it'll go, but without being able to go past one it's sorta pointless.

If melee attacks were free, though, you could walk into some rooms and be fairly confident of taking out at least three guys without dying yourself...oh, I don't know. I'm really enjoying it, though.

[samadriel]

It seems like they've tried to use the Rainbow Six Vegas health system to control energy, but I don't think they've thought it through.  I don't quite buy it as a balancing mechanic -- DX3 has more difficult stealth than the original (loads of big areas where your enemies have line of sight with each other), and it didn't spoil DX that you could do free takedowns for most of the game with only a nightstick and a mild melee buff.

Ah well, I get by.

[glitch]

There are some gripes though, the aug system seems a bit stingy in terms of how quickly you can level up

If you do all the sidequests and explore a lot, you should have XP/Praxis/money coming out of your ears. I completed it with pretty much all the augs I wanted and by the end had thrown 4 points into dermal armour (which as a sneaky bastard, I didn't need at all), even though I'd missed 4 of the sidequests.

and in terms of selection, 4 of the aug paths are purely for hacking which is overkill for a minigame mechanic

You only really need the hacking level and hacking stealth augs to hack with impunity. The first level of analyser is useful in the early stages though.

and then you have to waste a bunch of augs just to get a decent inventory capacity, so its turned something that was pure play in the original into a slog just to get some of the essentials.

Wasn't the original similar in limiting the inventory though? I swear you had to unlock stuff before you could carry two heavy weapons, a backup and ammo. I pretty much completed it with upgraded versions of the pistol and combat rifle, swapping out for heavier weapons when needed, so you don't need to carry a massive arsenal.

I absolutely love this game. Lots of inspiration taken from dodgy cyberpunk media, some nice nods to the original, lampshading of tropes and in-jokes/memes. Clearly taken influence from the first game, Arkham Asylum, MGS, Thief, Hitman and Headhunter.

[samadriel]

In DX1 you didn't have to formally unlock anything to carry a crazy arsenal, you just had to make the space on your grid.
I can't remember if there was a strength aug that allowed more storage in the original, but I'm pretty sure there wasn't; maybe there was one in Invisible War?

The DX3 inventory is much less forgiving in two ways; it doesn't stack items -- if you want to carry three frag grenades, you'll need to make space for each of them, whereas in DX, ten grenades took as much space as one -- and secondly, ammo takes up inventory space in DX3, whereas it was invisible in DX; it makes a big difference having ammo choking up your backpack.

[HappyTree]

I don't like inventory restrictions as they only really annoy. I don't recall ever thinking "Great! I can't carry everything I might need, just like in real life!" or "Whoopee! I have to trek all the way back to that cupboard where I stored my extra health potions!" (Oblivion)

If the game were real life I wouldn't play it. I have no desire to kill giant spiders in dark tunnels for real. (Dragon Age)

[glitch]

In DX1 you didn't have to formally unlock anything to carry a crazy arsenal, you just had to make the space on your grid.
I can't remember if there was a strength aug that allowed more storage in the original, but I'm pretty sure there wasn't; maybe there was one in Invisible War?

Weird, could have sworn there was an aug that allowed that. My bad, sorry :)

The DX3 inventory is much less forgiving in two ways; it doesn't stack items -- if you want to carry three frag grenades, you'll need to make space for each of them, whereas in DX, ten grenades took as much space as one -- and secondly, ammo takes up inventory space in DX3, whereas it was invisible in DX; it makes a big difference having ammo choking up your backpack.

Ammo stacks a little, which is helpful.

I don't like inventory restrictions as they only really annoy. I don't recall ever thinking "Great! I can't carry everything I might need, just like in real life!" or "Whoopee! I have to trek all the way back to that cupboard where I stored my extra health potions!" (Oblivion)

If the game were real life I wouldn't play it. I have no desire to kill giant spiders in dark tunnels for real. (Dragon Age)

It's part of the challenge. You're not supposed to be allowed to carry an unlimited arsenal otherwise it'd make every encounter trivial. Instead you're supposed to play to the strengths of the character, so if you're stealthy you're supposed to find a way round or take enemies out one at a time instead of just pulling out a rocket launcher and one-shotting them. Pick and choose the loot that's given to you instead of bringing it all back and flogging it, possibly breaking the game economy. Games like this are purposefully designed to be a challenge which seems to go against your take on games. You're in a minority, so don't expect games to give up conventions like this to cater for you, so your best bet is probably to play on PC and cheat/mod your way into the experience you want.

[samadriel]

Having infinite weight capacity etc could be fun for a later playthrough; if modders find a way, I'll certainly have a crack at DX3 with infinite energy sometime.

I think the STALKER games strike a good balance with equipment.  You've got a fair bit of freedom allowing you to haul valuable material back to traders (or just carry an extra gun to keep yourself safe), but you get exhausted more quickly as you overload yourself.  By 'Call of Pripyat', I'd finally been coaxed out of my pack-rat instincts and actually enjoyed the ritual of organising for a trip into the Zone.

[Lt Plonker]

My eyes! So much shaking and jiggling.

[HappyTree]

You're in a minority, so don't expect games to give up conventions like this to cater for you

There are plenty of games that don't have inventory restrictions. My opinion is that they are not much of a challenge and more of an irritation. Your opinion is different. I do not "expect" anything at all.

[Zetetic]

I think in DX3, it's even pretty clear why inventory restrictions are there.
Primarily it's because, as glitch says, it forces you into multiple trade-offs, some of which are a bit novel (or at least peculiar) - stealth vs. non-stealth, long-distance vs. short-distance, etc. Given that so much of the game is about those kind of trades, it's an important component and actually calling it a 'convention' does down it's actual use as a mechanic.

However, I think that the game could've been a bit less stingy with ammunition in terms of actually finding the stuff. Partly because it's so damn silly killing or knocking out some bloke and thinking "Huh, if I'd only waited a minute or two, he'd have had to give up anyway."

[Famous Mortimer]

I don't mind the inventory side of things – I suppose, as a stealth character you don't really need guns at all (except for the boss fights, and I haven't got to that bit yet). So you can use that part of your inventory for food and stuff to keep your energy up...I still think it's a bad way of doing it though. Maybe have the energy bars past the first one recharge much more slowly, or something.

[Space ghost]

I think it's great to have a game with a decent level of challenge that does spoon feed you everything you need to destroy enemies with impunity. You really have to plan your route well and expending one of your aug batteries is a decision not to be taken lightly. It would be a totally different game if you could just barge into a room and stealth take down every enemy, no challenge at all. Why not go play Arkham asylum or something if you prefer that type of experience.

[glitch]

There are plenty of games that don't have inventory restrictions. My opinion is that they are not much of a challenge and more of an irritation. Your opinion is different. I do not "expect" anything at all.

And how many of them are of the hybrid RPG/XPS variety that are obvious inspirations to DX3/influenced by DX1: Fallout 3/NV, STALKER, System Shock 1/2, Hitman etc?

Whether you agree about it being a challenge or a nuisance is a bit irrelevant really - limiting a player's inventory is a fairly polarising topic in game design and an awful lot has been written about it. However in this case it's pretty cut and dried. Here's a great article on Gamsutra by Warren Spector where he talks about the development of Deus Ex 1 and the game design decisions made along the way. Some relevant quotes:
   

Deus Ex asks players to determine how they will solve game problems and forces them to deal with the consequences of their choices.

Gameplay will rely on a variety of "tools," rather than just one:

    Character capabilities (skills/augmentations)
    Resource management
    Combat
    Character interaction

Are you willing to pay the price? "Choice" and "consequence" were the two most frequently uttered words during our two to three years of development. What good is player control if all choices lead to the same result? Without real, predictable consequences, choice is irrelevant. (Which is probably why so many games seem so trivial -- they are trivial!)

Everything in Deus Ex is about choices -- who you are in the world, how do you interact in the world, what are you carrying, and so on. In this case, the player has clearly decided to go through the game as a heavy weapons specialist, despite the fact that this will leave little room in inventory for anything else.

There's also some great stuff about the real world/fantasy settings you alluded to.

Aside from the challenge element I've already mentioned, a limited inventory helps define your DE3 character and differentiate it from other peoples'. If you want a huge inventory that can carry everything including the kitchen sink then you'll have to spend points on doing so, whereas someone who doesn't has the advantage of spending those points in other areas.

I don't want to seem like I'm picking on you - the "you're in a minority" comment is really in reply to something you posted before about how you tackle games (possibly in the Mass Effect thread). My immediate interpretation of that was "easy mode and a load of cheats". Most games won't cater for that as most people don't play games that way and to leave it as an option available to all from the start can impact the entire experience of the game.

I suppose, as a stealth character you don't really need guns at all (except for the boss fights, and I haven't got to that bit yet).

A silenced pistol is really useful for plinking shots off to the side of an enemy to try and lead him away from everyone else, if you don't want to shoot them in the head.

So you can use that part of your inventory for food and stuff to keep your energy up...I still think it's a bad way of doing it though. Maybe have the energy bars past the first one recharge much more slowly, or something.

I was surprised that there wasn't an aug available to upgrade this, it's one of the few things that annoyed me in this game. I was constantly low on energy, especially as food was in short supply.

[HappyTree]

I don't want to seem like I'm picking on you

Just accept that people have different opinions. That's all!

[glitch]

Just accept that people have different opinions. That's all!

Oh I do accept that. However, pointing out that people have different opinions adds nothing to a discussion - not all opinions are equal and not all answers lie in the middle of two extremes.

[Shuggie]

But that doesnt make your opinion the correct one, I played Deus Ex 1 and it remains my favourite game to this day, I think the inventory system there was a bit more forgiving than this current one, dismissing alternative views as those that could only possibly belong to casual gamers is bound to get peoples backs up and is a bit unnecessary.

In any case its not a deal breaker the games still great, I do think the amount of food/energy around is too scarce and every now and then you'll have to hunt through 30 odd lockers to find some more, which isnt my idea of fun really, the ammo balance feels good though. Regarding balancing the game economy, my feeling is that maybe the sale of weaponry should have been dropped rather than the tighter restriction of inventory but thats my personal take.

[HappyTree]

Oh I do accept that. However, pointing out that people have different opinions adds nothing to a discussion - not all opinions are equal and not all answers lie in the middle of two extremes.

You are trying to argue me into accepting that your appreciation of gaming is empirically better than mine. Seriously, are you 15 years old?

[Famous Mortimer]

No, and to try and avoid dragging this further into the long grass...accepting people have different opinions is the absolute baseline of all forums, but you seem to be using it in this instance to state your opinion and ignore that of other people. He's saying he thinks you're wrong, which is different to some empirical proof.

[BlueSkies]

I think an unlimited inventory would be a pretty ruinous design choice for a Deus Ex game.

I loved giving the original game a fresh spin on each playthrough by picking a set of weapons I hadn't previously. I remember skipping over the Dragons Tooth sword the first time, which I reasoned I would never use because I didn't like melee. But then I found out that it could be used to crack open different boxes and doors, and suddenly it made sacrificing those extra inventory spaces all the more worthwhile, with a chain reaction effect of now trying to squeeze every drop of potential out of that fuck off sword lying across 4 of my inventory spaces by putting more points into related augs. Now I would orient myself towards melee. The same decisions had to be made with nearly every weapon in the game.

Grumbling about a finite inventory in Deus Ex would be like playing any other RPG and grumbling about having to choose a character class. "Why can't I be the Mage, Warrior and Paladin all at the same time?" It's just not how RPGs are played.

[HappyTree]

There is no arguing for or against preferences, there is no objective result to work towards.

[Zetetic]

Except that I think it can be argued pretty well that even if your preference falls against limited inventories as a mechanic, it's a fairly necessary one in the context of DX3 (and elsewhere). Even if you don't like something about a work, you can still try to understand why the artist has put it there, and the effect on others, and even why if the thing you didn't like was removed that the work would still suffer for it.

[Famous Mortimer]

Regarding balancing the game economy, my feeling is that maybe the sale of weaponry should have been dropped rather than the tighter restriction of inventory but thats my personal take.

I've not found anything which is worth carrying round just to sell, really. Guns don't get you that much, and you can't carry more than one of any sort anyway.

[Shuggie]

Who is asking for infinite inventories? Not every arguement is absolute its really a matter of degree, DX1 had a less restrictive system than DX3 and some people liked it better the old way, I don't think that this would ruin the game it certainly didnt ruin the first one.

I agree about the selling, its too much of a ballache for too little reward to bother with, theres only been a couple of occasions where I've really used it.

[HappyTree]

Except that I think it can be argued pretty well that even if your preference falls against limited inventories as a mechanic, it's a fairly necessary one in the context of DX3 (and elsewhere).

Yes, I'd agree. I think I erred in making a general point in a thread where most other people want to keep it more specific. My mistake. I'll get me coat :-D

[Zetetic]

Ah well. I think I'd agree with you even - I did actually find DX3's inventory frustrating at times myself, but I suppose that's also part of the point. That a mechanic that relies on frustration...

[uglybob1986]

I've got as far as

Spoiler alert

Montreal

[close]

and I'm hoping there's a fair bit left to play, because I'm enjoying this game immensely, it's great to see a game made with such care and attention to detail as the original and I'd love to see a the same team work on a sequel a few years from now as long as they give the project the same quality they've shown in HR, with 25 years between this and DE there is certainly ample breathing room.

I've been playing as a stealthy guerilla style character, killing a few people here and there but now I've got more comfortable with the game and upgraded my augs I've avoided fatalities as much as I could: didn't kill anyone in Tai Yong Medical for example, and I just picked up the P.E.P.S gun which should make non lethal takedowns easier. I've got more or less the same weapons I had as JC Denton (pistol, shotgun, rifle but a tranq rifle instead of sniper). The limited inventory hasn't bothered me too much, I was expecting it from playing the other games andI've upgrade it fully now. I would have liked to have the independent body part damage thingy from DE though (especially if it affected the functionality of augs in the damaged limbs), and I agree there isn't much use for so many different hacking augs.

I've not found anything which is worth carrying round just to sell, really. Guns don't get you that much, and you can't carry more than one of any sort anyway.

The only gun I made a decent sum from was the heavy assault rifle I bagged from the goons who

Spoiler alert

raid the pod hotel in Hengsha.

[close]

I used it on his buddies and sold it when I got out. Speaking of that scene,

Spoiler alert

hacking the turret and carrying it around, letting it do the work for me was great fun!

[close]

In summary I think it's a great game so far and there's very little chance I'll be disappointed with the parts I haven't seen.

[Zetetic]

Speaking of that scene,

Spoiler alert

hacking the turret and carrying it around, letting it do the work for me was great fun!

[close]

I was bloody hacked off when that

Spoiler alert

wasn't possible with the third boss.

[close]

I'd carried the bloody thing for miles, up an elevator and so on, and then the

Spoiler alert

room resets after the cut scene with Zhao and what's-his-face.

[close]

.

[micanio]

Well, I've just completed it.

Fucking awesome, in every respect. All the atmosphere of the original, but much, much better. This is now my favourite game ever. everything about this game is just superb. The music, the graphics, the storyline. All of it just perfect.

I'm actually quite gutted that I've completed it, as it means I have nothing to play now.

Time to play it again on the hardest difficulty

[hoverdonkey]

My first killings last night. I offed some dudes in the sewer in Detroit. I was happy just walking around but he was all up in my face, so I shot him in the face. And his mates. Fuck em.