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[Muso] Electronic drums

Started by Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth, December 09, 2010, 03:51:43 AM

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Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

A few years ago I was in a band, briefly, which pretty much fizzled out when the drummer decided to quit. Ever since then, my friend, who played the guitar, and I periodically talk about recording at home and passing the files back and forth via e-mail. The problem with this is that we are still minus a drummer, so I thought I might as well fill the void myself. All of which rambling brings me to the point of the thread.

Due to lack of space (and not wanting to piss off the neighbours) a proper drum kit is impractical, as is one of those electronic ones that looks a bit like a real drum kit. Drum machines, programmed loops and such lack the human touch, so I don't really want that either. The ideal solution seems to be one of those ones that's a self contained unit, with the round pads on top, along the lines of this


I'm pretty clueless about all this though, so any advice folk could offer would be handy. I've seen ones for about 40 quid, but they seem to be intended for kids, so I can't imagine they'd be much cop. I'm not looking to be the next John Bonham either though, so I don't want to spend loads of money on it. Could I get something decent for around 100-150 quid?

El Unicornio, mang

I don't know much about the hardware side of things, but as far as software to go with one of them (if it's compatible), I highly recommend Addictive Drums and EZ Drummer, both of which have a large range of kits that sound just like the real thing. BFD and Abbey Road Drums are both excellent too. Won't cost you anything either if you, ahem, know where to look...

Ginyard

http://www.htfr.com/more-info/MR238281

Get a couple of pedals for the BD and HH and give it a bloody good boshing.

NoSleep

I was chatting with a mate, whose drummer used a set of these (Yamaha or Roland, I think) on a track recently (with BFD sounds) and was pleasantly surprised at the results. I'll check back with him on what gear was used. I know that some drum pads can get quite involved, yielding a range of sounds dependent on how hard you hit them and where you hit them, so it's possible to achieve sounds like rim shots (when you strike the skin and the rim simultaneously). So obviously there are returns for spending a bit more on the right bits of kit.

rudi

Quotewhen you strike the skin and the rim simultaneously

I think I've seen that video...

Ginyard

When I use mine, I build the layers up bit by bit rather than attempt a full kit emulation, a bit like Harry Hill here in this vid. That way each part has its own midi track which makes it easier for editing later on. Sometimes smacking the fuck out of some rubber in a funky manner is the greatest feeling in the world. BTW, I use Battery 3, which is brilliant for editing and tailoring each pad to what you need it to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLPRevpils0


Ginyard

Plenty, although the bulk of it is hack tv/corporate work or as a performer with other people rather than what I'd call original artistic material. My own personal music takes second place to earnings until I hit 40, that's always been the goal. On reflection I'm not sure its been the right one.


I really like these Handsonic things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDvSXmSHKKE

I saw these spanish guys playing four of them at some Covent Garden display a few years back and was sold on them. If you want a bit more subtlety than just belting a pad at different velocities then this is probably your best bet, although they are quite pricey for a single pad, and I'm not sold on a lot of the internal sounds on them. Put them together with the Tonehammer libraries and they'll rock.


I'm no salesman, but I'd love to have the musical chops to do that job, giving in-depth demonstrations of high quality gear, often in eccentric clothing. I'd probably even affect a Dutch accent as well to complete the package.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

I was going to head into town today to see if the music shops had any drums that I could try, but it was cold out, so I ended up ordering the Alesis one. So (assuming it turns out to be good) cheers for the recommendation, Ginyard.

rudi

Quote from: clingfilm portent on December 10, 2010, 05:16:27 PM
I'm no salesman, but I'd love to have the musical chops to do that job, giving in-depth demonstrations of high quality gear

I have a good friend who does just that and you'll be disappointed to hear that it's every bit as fun as you'd imagine it to be, the lucky, excessively talented bastard...


falafel

I laughed, and then I stopped laughing, and then I laughed again

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

So I picked up the Alesis thingummajig the other day. First impressions were a little disappointing as the default sounds were a bit crummy, but, after delving into the setup menu, I managed to find some much better ones. I've asked for a midi cale for christmas, so I can have a go with VST doodads and such.

Had some fun plugging it into my guitar effects pedal. I also bruised my knuckles trying to play it without sticks, which is an encouraging measure of build quality, I think.

Depressed Beyond Tables

You're much better off learning to program with basic MIDI. You can create great sounding beats just by learning the nuances that dynamics and the right drum/cymbal create. Also you'll have quantize (s?) options which are designed to bring a more 'human' feel to patterns. Just cos you create the beat with sticks is no guarantee you'll sound like Steve Gadd or Vinnie Colaiuta. Far from it, more likely. Chances are you'll end up refining and touching up the beat with your mouse anyway. Also the sounds on those little drum kits will make it hard for your music to sound anything but silly.

Any skills learned and honed with MIDI and a decent sampler will not just be confined to your drum programming. They'll enhance your overall creating, editing and understanding of music.

Capt.Midnight

Quote from: Depressed Beyond Tables on December 16, 2010, 10:41:54 PM
You're much better off learning to program with basic MIDI. You can create great sounding beats just by learning the nuances that dynamics and the right drum/cymbal create. Also you'll have quantize (s?) options which are designed to bring a more 'human' feel to patterns. Just cos you create the beat with sticks is no guarantee you'll sound like Steve Gadd or Vinnie Colaiuta. Far from it, more likely. Chances are you'll end up refining and touching up the beat with your mouse anyway. Also the sounds on those little drum kits will make it hard for your music to sound anything but silly.

Any skills learned and honed with MIDI and a decent sampler will not just be confined to your drum programming. They'll enhance your overall creating, editing and understanding of music.

Yeah, good advice.  With the drum machine you'll be pretty limited, whilst the sampler does exactly the same job but with way more control.  I haven't really added anything more to the above post.

glitch

What about an MPC or something similar? Hitting things, quantisation, etc. etc.

HappyTree

Another vote for the Handsonic. It's compact, very responsive, you don't need to use sticks just the fingers and you can MIDI it to a bigger drum box or keyboard for more drum sounds.

£600 though! But it's been very worth it.

Ginyard

Quote from: Depressed Beyond Tables on December 16, 2010, 10:41:54 PM
You're much better off learning to program with basic MIDI. You can create great sounding beats just by learning the nuances that dynamics and the right drum/cymbal create. Also you'll have quantize (s?) options which are designed to bring a more 'human' feel to patterns. Just cos you create the beat with sticks is no guarantee you'll sound like Steve Gadd or Vinnie Colaiuta. Far from it, more likely. Chances are you'll end up refining and touching up the beat with your mouse anyway.

No freaking way! This is about learning to play surely, not tinkering around with a keyboard and mouse from the off. Edit afterwards, quantize away,  but learn to play first and foremost.

BTW, the best thing is to team up with a really good software drums like Battery 3 that I mentioned or the ones El U cited.

NoSleep

Quote from: Ginyard on December 17, 2010, 06:25:25 AM
No freaking way! This is about learning to play surely, not tinkering around with a keyboard and mouse from the off. Edit afterwards, quantize away,  but learn to play first and foremost.

BTW, the best thing is to team up with a really good software drums like Battery 3 that I mentioned or the ones El U cited.

I did work out a nice set up on a keyboard for playing a standard set of drumkit sounds quite convincingly. I moved completely away from the usual GM positions which presuppose that you're going to program drums one drum at a time.

I stuck the same sound on several notes in the same area of the keyboard to allow for movement. Had hi-hats & cymbals on the black notes down the to the left end (this is all a set-up for a left-handed me, by the way) of the keyboard, snares on the black notes and kicks on the white notes up the right end. In the middle I had toms, with the same drum set an octave apart, for if I needed to do a tom roll; likewise I had snares and kicks set so I could do rolls on them without my two hands being on adjacent keys, as is usual with the GM set-up.

Basically I spread the drums out over the whole keyboard so I could experiment with playing (sampled) drums in a comfortable, intuitive way, and it worked, although I never had time to properly pursue learning to become a virtual drummer.

Depressed Beyond Tables

Quote from: Ginyard on December 17, 2010, 06:25:25 AM
No freaking way! This is about learning to play surely, not tinkering around with a keyboard and mouse from the off. Edit afterwards, quantize away,  but learn to play first and foremost.

Mmmmh, yeah. As someone who has earned a living for more than the past ten years playing and teaching them I don't think there's a quick fix to "learn to play". Hence my altogether easier suggestion.

So, er, good luck with the snare rushes there.

Ginyard

Quote from: Depressed Beyond Tables on December 17, 2010, 03:14:34 PM
Mmmmh, yeah. As someone who has earned a living for more than the past ten years playing and teaching them I don't think there's a quick fix to "learn to play". Hence my altogether easier suggestion.

So, er, good luck with the snare rushes there.

Where did I say anything about a quick fix? I'm talking about the pleasure of learning to play something. I'm actually suprised to see you as a drummer advocating sitting in a chair and step time programming instead, which is a very tedious and banal way of doing things in my experience.  Its not difficult playing percussion on a keyboard or a PadKontrol but nothing beats learning to do it with sticks. Its ultimately more satisfying and more fun in my experience.


HappyTree

Not being a drummer -more of a percussionist- and not having any drums, I got the Boss DR-880 drumbox for doing drum tracks. It only took me about 2 days to get totally bored of trying to define a rhythm and fannying about with settings to try to create enough variety in the patterns for it to sound halfway spontaneous and real. Sod that for a game of soldiers.

As I sat there tapping along to my music effortlessly on my knee with my fingers I realised I needed something to hit. Enter the Handsonic. The sounds on the 880 are very good, lots of choice, so it wasn't a completely wasted purchase. But I am never going to bother spending time programming a track for days on end when I can just tap a pad and do all the drum tracks in about half an hour.

But then people are different. I know a guy who does excellent Drum & Bass by painstakingly pasting together drum samples on Cubase. I would never have the patience to do that.

NoSleep

Quote from: Ginyard on December 17, 2010, 03:53:40 PM
Where did I say anything about a quick fix? I'm talking about the pleasure of learning to play something. I'm actually suprised to see you as a drummer advocating sitting in a chair and step time programming instead, which is a very tedious and banal way of doing things in my experience.  Its not difficult playing percussion on a keyboard or a PadKontrol but nothing beats learning to do it with sticks. Its ultimately more satisfying and more fun in my experience.

I've loved the result from the times when I've had a drummer there to play drums via midi into an arrangement. You get so much more in so much less time than programming them. If I have to program drums, I (most times) intentionally focus attention away from them by not bothering to go into any elaborate detail, just complementing the other instruments.

NoSleep

Nearly forgot... or I just play the kick and snare live through the whole arrangement, quantize if necessary, then clean the worst mistakes up. Hi hat will probably be a really simple pattern set up and looped beforehand. Then I'll go through and add cymbals. Won't even bother with toms unless I want more of a Mo Tucker feel.

Depressed Beyond Tables

Quote from: Ginyard on December 17, 2010, 03:53:40 PM
Where did I say anything about a quick fix? I'm talking about the pleasure of learning to play something. I'm actually suprised to see you as a drummer advocating sitting in a chair and step time programming instead, which is a very tedious and banal way of doing things in my experience.  Its not difficult playing percussion on a keyboard or a PadKontrol but nothing beats learning to do it with sticks. Its ultimately more satisfying and more fun in my experience.

Never once did the OP mention needing help with playing. It was you who mentioned "learn to play". This was IMO a thread looking for advice about purchasing a product. If Claude wants to discuss the technical aspects of playing I'd be more than happy to contribute.

As for a drummer sitting (imagine that!) and creating beats, I found it very satisfying. Maybe it was banal for you, but there you go.

Ginyard

Quote from: Depressed Beyond Tables on December 17, 2010, 07:00:22 PM
Never once did the OP mention needing help with playing. It was you who mentioned "learn to play".

QuoteDrum machines, programmed loops and such lack the human touch, so I don't really want that either.

Reads to me like someone who wants to play rather than programme.

Quote from: Depressed Beyond Tables on December 17, 2010, 07:00:22 PM
As for a drummer sitting (imagine that!) and creating beats

Meester Pedantic!

Ginyard

Quote from: NoSleep on December 17, 2010, 06:22:59 PM
I've loved the result from the times when I've had a drummer there to play drums via midi into an arrangement. You get so much more in so much less time than programming them.

Definitely.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

No need to argue over little old me.

My brother is big into Cubase and all that, so I've had some experience with it and I just found it a bit . Once I'd sorted out a basic rhythm I found I didn't know where to start adding variations. Everything would end up as one loop repeating for three minutes.

In contrast, when he recorded me playing basslines for his stuff, my brother couldn't get his head around anything other than short little samples. Perhaps it's a left/right hemisphere of the brain sort of thing.

Plus, as Ginyard said, sticky whacking is fun.

small_world

Can I just really quickly hijack the thread.
I My girlfriend wants an electronic drum kit for Xmas, we'll be spending about £300, and hopefully getting something decent. (she works in a music shop and gets a hefty discount (sometimes))

I use Ableton, do I just plug it into the PC and it'll figure it out to be a midi device like it does with keyboards? Or do I need to programme it specifically? Is it hard?