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Heart-dropping moments

Started by Rev, January 14, 2011, 12:49:11 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Mister Six

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on January 17, 2011, 12:16:27 PM
You're not, though, you're paying for a sequel to a game. You can play HL2: Ep1 (or 2) without having any of the other games in the series.

Doesn't really address my problems with the paucity of HL2's plot, though. If anything it adds credence to them.

QuoteMy point was, I don't think it has. SNG's reference to "well plotted" I would read through the filter of him being a game designer, which would mean the way the game's sections are laid out, and you as a character having a reason for going from A to B to C. That's a different thing than the "story" of the game.

I was using the traditional definition of 'plot'. I didn't realise there were other, developer-specific meanings nor that SNG was using them.

QuoteYou've said it several times, now; who are these people who are feting the HL games as great storytelling?

The BAFTAs, The Guardian, IGN, Edge... and while I can't find the reviews I recall PC Gamer (possibly PC Zone or another mag) saying the same thing.

Pleasingly, GameSpy and GameSpot both criticised the storytelling as being poor, but the general feeling at the time - and the one I've come across on message boards since - is that the plotting and story are both excellent when I'd argue that the former is poor and the latter wafer-thin.

QuoteI've played through all the HLs enough to hopefully be able to answer one or two of your questions, though. Why the Combine are on earth is never completely explained (although it's certainly hinted at); how they're there is due to the wormhole opened in the first game. They've banded together with whatshisname with the white beard who rules the Earth, Quisling-style.

The reason why The Combine are on Earth was given in a developer interview (or possibly in the big sexy 'Art of Half Life 2' book). The idea that the aliens from HL1 were actually running scared from the REAL baddies - The Combine - and Earth was their life raft (and place for a last stand) was a really clever one. But it's not in the game, which is kind of odd. At the very least you'd expect them to explain where all the non-Vortigaunt baddies from HL1 went, and where these Combine lads came from. It's a really cool ideas so it's a shame it's never actually used.

As for the rest of it - you're kind of missing my point, though I might not have made it well enough. I don't mind that there's stuff in the game that goes unexplained, whether that's because it's being saved for a sequel or just because the developers want to leave it a mystery. I do mind that pretty much everything of import is either unexplained or dealt with offscreen, though.

And remember that these complaints are very specifically directed at the game's plot. How fun it is to play is irrelevant to my complaint (personally, I thought it was beautiful and a lot of fun to play but kind of overlong and repetitive. And the gravity gun was a bit of a pain in the arse to use, especially when the machine gun/shotgun combo is so efficient).

Mister Six

Quote from: Still Not George on January 17, 2011, 12:38:02 PM
Exactly. You can tell epic and involving stories in games, but those who want deep, involving plots are probably missing the point a little.

Well thank goodness for Obsidian, BioWare, Rockstar, pre-shit Square Enix and other point-missing developers then.

MojoJojo

Quote from: mycroft on January 14, 2011, 06:46:16 PM
I've moaned about this before on here - the Killer Croc level from Arkham Asylum. They could at least have cut it from collecting five samples to three. And given us a manhole to escape up without going back through the bloody sewer system again, pausing at regular intervals to throw a batarang at Croc's entirely-expected appearances. And walking slowly doesn't make a bloody difference to anything Batman, you bastard liar!

Suppose they had to keep him a major feature because he was in the trailer. Like the Star Destroyer bit from The Force Unleashed, but that whole game sucked.

Yes. I think the heart-dropping moment comes about the time you pick up the second sample and realise you have to the tedious crap three more times before you have a chance of getting out.

It also doesn't help that it's an incredible boring bit, graphically.

QuoteWell thank goodness for Obsidian, BioWare, Rockstar, pre-shit Square Enix and other point-missing developers then.

Do any of them really make games with plots that would be regarded as "good" in any other medium? A bad plot isn't excusable, but games aren't sold on their plots. They are sold as being "fun", where fun is a big combination of things, all based around interaction.
Writers have ultimate freedom in defining their plots - they just needed to write the right words. With films, it's a lot harder- everything has to be plotted and shot, which costs money, and the visual medium means a lot of tricks that could be done in a book just don't work when shown. But after decades of work developing directing techniques and developing writing techniques to work with the limitations of cinema, films now have plots that are interesting even when compared to books.

Games are another case again, the difficulties in dealing with interactivity severly limit the flexibility of the authors in creating their plot. The exception being games which just tell the plot in cutscenes, which I don't think really count.

(I think I'm wittering on, a bit, so I'll cut this short, but in HL2's defense I'll point out that two of the things you complained about - the nuclear physicst gunslinger, and the mute protagonist, are both things inhereted from HL1. When that came out, having a FPS where the PC wasn't a space marine was a breath of fresh air - even if it didn't make much sense. And mute protagonists were standard then. Newer games have done more interesting things with the PC -  HL2's mistake was that they basically ditched everything from HL1 except Freeman. They should have ditched Freeman, and made a non related game with the freedom to do something interesting with the PC, or tied the story in a lot closer with the first game)

Plot obviously plays an important role in many games, but you don't play a game for the story. Not unless you are easily pleased or are frequently disappointed.

Mister Six

Quote from: MojoJojo on January 17, 2011, 03:44:10 PMDo any of them really make games with plots that would be regarded as "good" in any other medium?

He said 'deep and involving'.

QuoteA bad plot isn't excusable, but games aren't sold on their plots. They are sold as being "fun", where fun is a big combination of things, all based around interaction.

Christ, before this goes any further let me reiterate: SNG said that HL2 was 'one of the best-plotted games of recent years'. I disagreed, citing my reasons. I was very specifically addressing a single point of criticism. Then lots of people jumped in to defend the game from accusations I never made, or informed me that my opinion on the plot was irrelevant anyway because the game was still fun to play (both of which are so far beside the point that  they're actually not beside it at all, but in another building entirely).

Can we end this now, or move it to a separate HL2 thread? Arguably it should have gone in another thread in the first place but I didn't expect the Half-Life Defence League to light up the Bat-signal. Sorry for derailing this one. I'll continue the 'game plot' stuff in another thread if I can be arsed (but suffice to say that I disagree that 'you don't play a game for the story' - you might not, but I'd wager that for many RPG, adventure and interactive fiction gamers it's a factor as big as, if not bigger than, the gameplay itself).

MojoJojo

Sorry, I realised it was a bit off topic. I realised that at the "I'm wittering on" line, and I should have trashed the post at that point.
I was only really defending SNGs point:
QuoteExactly. You can tell epic and involving stories in games, but those who want deep, involving plots are probably missing the point a little.
which I think is pretty accurate.

As to the HL2 defense league - I've not actually played it much.

If any more needs to be subject, please start a new thread for it, whores.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

I've always found "shit exploding and monsters trying to kill me while i solve puzzles for the good of the entire world" quite a good plot.

eluc55

Quote from: Mister Six on January 17, 2011, 04:19:55 PM
He said 'deep and involving'.

I do sympathise with Mister Six here. No one seems to be reading his posts. 

Dead kate moss

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on January 17, 2011, 05:43:10 PM
I've always found "shit exploding and monsters trying to kill me while i solve puzzles for the good of the entire world" quite a good plot.

It's certainly up there with 'I'm a criminal working my way up, which involves car chases, killing fuck-loads of police/innocent bystanders/prostitutes with a variety of weapons, often for no reason, and sometimes I get a jet-pack.'

Certainly beats Ulysses.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

I find doing that quite involving.

As for deep, I don't find much emotional depth, I think developers struggling to get the balance between storytelling and interaction. Often the storytelling element is derivative, while the interaction element is limited. Gaming is an interactive art though, which puts the onus on AI development, not getting amazing actors and script writers in.

eluc55

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on January 17, 2011, 06:02:18 PM
As for deep, I don't find much emotional depth, I think developers struggling to get the balance between storytelling and interaction. Often the storytelling element is derivative, while the interaction element is limited. Gaming is an interactive art though, which puts the onus on AI development, not getting amazing actors and script writers in.

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I think Mister Six has explained that's not what he's arguing. He arguing its not a deep or complex story... whether its one conducive to a good game, is a separate issue.

I've never played HL2, and my current favourite game is Donkey Kong, which is about some musical goblins stealing bananas from a gorilla to make their king some hands... but I just felt compelled to say something, as everyone seemed to be ignoring what he is saying, in order to argue something quite different.   

Mister Six

Quote from: eluc55 on January 17, 2011, 06:08:18 PM
I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I think Mister Six has explained that's not what he's arguing. He arguing its not a deep or complex story... whether its one conducive to a good game, is a separate issue.

I've never played HL2, and my current favourite game is Donkey Kong, which is about some musical goblins stealing bananas from a gorilla to make their king some hands... but I just felt compelled to say something, as everyone seemed to be ignoring what he is saying, in order to argue something quite different.

Thanks, Eluc55. Very much appreciated. Of course, everybody's ignoring what you're saying as well so I guess we're alike in that respect.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

I'm not arguing with either of what you two are saying really. I may have made that glib comment but otherwise what I've added is what I think, not an argument against a specific other argument.

Famous Mortimer

#72
Quote from: Mister Six on January 17, 2011, 04:19:55 PMI disagree that 'you don't play a game for the story'
I can't think of a single example of a crap game I've carried on playing because I wanted to see where the story ended up, whereas there are hundreds of games where I couldn't give two hoots for the plot but carried on to the end because it was fun.

Quote from: Mister Six on January 17, 2011, 04:19:55 PMI do mind that pretty much everything of import is either unexplained or dealt with offscreen, though.
Just not true. Blowing up the tower to prevent the message going through to the Combine homeworld, then having to go back and repair it to give the city enough time to be evacuated are both done by you.

If we're talking posts being ignored, then the scale tips both ways. If Six can point to those examples of entertainments featuring resistances to totalitarian governments that do feature the things he's criticising HL for not having, then that would be a start. I'm not sure what HL would gain by having a detour to explain how the resistance formed. The story is fine as it is, and I just disagree that it's lame or wafer-thin. Actually, seeing below, never mind. I just don't see the flaws you do.

Ta for the reviews of the game, although some of them aren't exactly wildly glowing in their praise - the BBC calls it "immersive" and uses no other description for it, that I can tell.

Quote from: Mister Six on January 17, 2011, 04:19:55 PM
I didn't expect the Half-Life Defence League to light up the Bat-signal
And I didn't expect the Half-Life Nitpick Brigade to roll into town. Shall we both stop now?

weekender

Quote from: eluc55 on January 17, 2011, 06:08:18 PMmy current favourite game is Donkey Kong, which is about some musical goblins stealing bananas from a gorilla to make their king some hands...

Wrong.  The animals on DK island have been hypnotised by a group of evil Tikis into stealing Donkey Kong's banana hoard. 

The Tiki's are therefore the enemy, but they are not stealing the bananas directly.  They have hypnotised the animals into doing so.

Then, when the main Tiki is fed the bananas by other lower-rank Tikis, he uses a potion made from regurgitating the bananas onto some mystery orbs to make himself some hands.

Fucking 'musical goblins', get your fucking facts straight.

For what it's worth, DKCR is ace because of the great gameplay.  The plot is contrived, sure.  The fun part here though, is that the little video sequences make it feel like an adventure.  When I've done a level, I like the little video intro that happens.  If anything, it adds to the experience, and I can skip it if I want to.  OK, it's not a great plot but I don't think it actually claims to be.  The most important part is the gaming experience, and that's what I think it does really well.

uglybob1986

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on January 17, 2011, 08:13:55 PMShall we both stop now?
Please do, there's no need for this to be taken so seriously/ personally and it's boring me shitless.

Spoiler alert
Like the Library in Halo
[close]

Famous Mortimer

Quote from: uglybob1986 on January 17, 2011, 08:48:59 PM
Please do, there's no need for this to be taken so seriously/ personally and it's boring me shitless.

Spoiler alert
Like the Library in Halo
[close]
Sorry, uglybob, I occasionally forget my rule about getting narked about arguments on the internet. Mister Six is a good guy, he just can't help being wrong on this occasion, and probably having some sort of weird sexual deviance that will land him in prison one day :)

Badly placed save / respawn points are my big annoyance, although I can't for the life of me remember an example.

weekender

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on January 17, 2011, 09:03:50 PMBadly placed save / respawn points are my big annoyance, although I can't for the life of me remember an example.

You should fucking count yourself lucky!  In Donkey Kong Country Returns, if you lose Diddy Kong and then die, you have to either do the level the hard way (with Donkey Kong only!), or quit and go back and get Diddy Kong so his rocket can save you!

Fucking place saves / respawn points / magic goblins.  Fuck man, I imagine this is what them in 'Nam felt, but with Donkey Kong instead of the Viet Cong*.

*Best I can do, I'm tired.  Sorry.

uglybob1986

QuoteSorry, uglybob
No offence taken, no apology needed! I love the way people on this forum can (and frequently do) passionately debate something quite trivial but it reaches a point where my childhood ADHD seems to make a comeback and I find myself getting bored with a thread I was previously enjoying, even if people are disagreeing with me. It's my cross to bear, I suppose.

Save points, though. most of the time I have problems with these it's with the lack of them (all GTAs before IV)

AsparagusTrevor

Badly positioned checkpoints have always been a pet hate of mine, especially ones placed before cutscenes or tedious sections leading up to a difficult part.

weekender

Quote from: uglybob1986 on January 17, 2011, 09:36:57 PM
No offence taken, no apology needed! I love the way people on this forum can (and frequently do) passionately debate something quite trivial but it reaches a point where my childhood ADHD seems to make a comeback and I find myself getting bored with a thread I was previously enjoying, even if people are disagreeing with me. It's my cross to bear, I suppose.

This is a beautiful post.

I'm in a bad place right now because of a fight with my insane neighbour, but this one post sums up everything that is good within people.

Thank you.

uglybob1986


Big Jack McBastard

Quote from: AsparagusTrevor on January 17, 2011, 10:33:06 PM
Badly positioned checkpoints have always been a pet hate of mine, especially ones placed before cutscenes or tedious sections leading up to a difficult part.

Chalk me up for this one too, not content with repeatedly handing my arse to me, but then forcing me to sit through the same cutscene so many times I end up memorizing all the dialogue (against my will) makes me wish death on some programmers.

Mister Six

Quote from: AsparagusTrevor on January 17, 2011, 10:33:06 PM
Badly positioned checkpoints have always been a pet hate of mine, especially ones placed before cutscenes or tedious sections leading up to a difficult part.

Speaking of which: unskippable cutscenes. How narcissistic do you have to be to demand that the player sit through all your flipping five-minute-long video clips every time they play the game? Big props to Halo, which not only lets you skip them but also gives you an unobtrusive 'Are you sure?' message in case you accidentally lent on the controller or something.

ThickAndCreamy

Seeing as everyone is mentioning Half Life 2 on PC for Steam;

I have a free copy of the game, if anyone wants it who has never played it before, I'll send it to you for a free as a gift. First to PM me gets it.