Old Doctor Who

[weekender]

Well, I am sad to hear that Nicholas Courtney has died.

I wonder who wrote his obituaries in the newspaper columns?  I only mention this because if they were written by someone I may have had some sort of online altercation with, then I may change my mind about Courtney and spend my time stropping about on a forum.

[Lookalike Mark Chapman]

It's to point out the small-mindedness and hypocrisy of you lot. Had I the inclination, I could ask those of you who sneer at my distress and imply I'm a moron, how many articles you've ever had published in the national press. And on subjects other than "the show"?

I still find it staggering that you're a grown man, let alone a journalist. You can't compete with people on those terms. That's not how someone's worth is judged. It doesn't make your opinion more valid. You can't define yourself in that way any more than you can say one fucking programme ruined your life. And me saying this has nothing to do with your opinion of Doctor Who - as you should know from people who also don't like it saying exactly the same thing - it's about your self-defeating, tedious, repetitive, unsolicited droning about it. I mean - I'm not as obsessed with this programme as you are, and I've written half a fucking fanzine about it. It's not going to achieve anything, trying to shit on other people's enjoyment. I can't imagine you get much out of it, either, but you keep coming back. Why? Why are 'we', 'us lot', this apparently single-minded collective, the small-minded ones here? Step back, look at how you're coming across. Read this sentence - 'Had I the inclination, I could ask those of you who sneer at my distress and imply I'm a moron, how many articles you've ever had published in the national press' - and ask yourself if you like that person very much. Your 'distress'? What is there to be distressed about? Some show is quite popular? People like it? If you don't like it any more, expunge it from your life. Don't make it your life. Let those people get on with it. They're not hurting you. Doctor Who isn't hurting you. You are.

I still think he should write a cathartic "How Doctor Who Ruined My Life" article for DArkSky/Lookalike Mark Chapman's fanzine.

Still available, for free, online at http://www.mingmongs.co.uk/!

[Mister Six]

Are you doing another one of those, LMC? The first one was absolutely splendid.

[Lookalike Mark Chapman]

Work has started, but it's a way off. Sadly we have real jobs too.

[Maybe Im Doing It Wrong]

To be fair to Jake, I can see why he's so annoyed at Doctor Who; the current incarnation of the show is hard to ignore. It's fucking everywhere. Even the guardian had a free CD last week.

I feel about Doctor Who the same way I do about football. I can't stand it, but it doesn't bother me as long as people keep it out of my face and don't insist on inflicting it on me. Unfortunately this isn't the case with football anymore, nor is it with Doctor Who.

[Lookalike Mark Chapman]

To be fair to Jake, I can see why he's so annoyed at Doctor Who; the current incarnation of the show is hard to ignore. It's fucking everywhere. Even the guardian had a free CD last week.

Not the Guardian! An extreme example, certainly, seeing how you only had to locate a bin and the unwelcome intrusion into your life would be over.

[SavageHedgehog]

When was it not the case with football? The 50s? I find it pretty easy to tune things out that I'm not interested in. Football is everywhere but it doesn't bother me. A couple of years ago I felt obliged to accompany my housemates to the pub to watch this or that game which was a bit of a drag at times but  bearable. Similarly, there might be a lot of Who around but, exceot when I read the posts on Roobarb, I don't really notice it.

[Talulah, really!]

I feel about Doctor Who the same way I do about football. I can't stand it, but it doesn't bother me as long as people keep it out of my face and don't insist on inflicting it on me.

Which is why I go into threads called Old Doctor Who to whinge about it.

Tosser.

[Maybe Im Doing It Wrong]

Not the Guardian! An extreme example, certainly, seeing how you only had to locate a bin and the unwelcome intrusion into your life would be over.

I still had to look at Matt Smith's gormless face though - as I do seemingly when I open any periodical within the environs of the UK.

Aren't there any Whovians who feel like this? Nobody who thinks "it's overkill. It's too much. It'll backfire - peope'll get sick of it and they'll cancel it again."

By the way, I can't believe you resorted to the "well, you can just turn the tell off you know" argument.

[Maybe Im Doing It Wrong]

Which is why I go into threads called Old Doctor Who to whinge about it.

Tosser.

I was just leaping in to (sort of) defend Jake.

[Lookalike Mark Chapman]

Pointing out that it's an argument doesn't invalidate it as an argument. No 'resorting' necessary.

I'm not a huge fan of football, but I can't say that football bothers me. It is 'the national obsession' but even that's easy enough to avoid without it remotely disrupting your life. People like it, good on them.

Having said that, I keep checking the Guardian, and blow me if they don't mention it every fucking issue.

[biggytitbo]

Is Who really everywhere? Other than purpusely looking at stuff about it on the internet I see no overt reference to it in my day to day existence.

[Maybe Im Doing It Wrong]

When was it not the case with football? The 50s? I find it pretty easy to tune things out that I'm not interested in. Football is everywhere but it doesn't bother me. A couple of years ago I felt obliged to accompany my housemates to the pub to watch this or that game which was a bit of a drag at times but  bearable. Similarly, there might be a lot of Who around but, exceot when I read the posts on Roobarb, I don't really notice it.

Pre 1994-1995 footy was easy to ignore if you weren't a fan. I certainly went through my whole university career (1990 - 1993) without ever hearing anyone ever mention football. THen new laddism and that cunt Nick Hornby came in, the middle classes took it up, and suddenly it was illegal not to like it.

[SavageHedgehog]

I'll take your word for it, but in my experience it's at least slightly lower key these days then it was in the mid 90s/early 00s

[Maybe Im Doing It Wrong]

Is Who really everywhere? Other than purpusely looking at stuff about it on the internet I see no overt reference to it in my day to day existence.

It's fucking everywhere Biggy.

[Talulah, really!]

I was just leaping in to (sort of) defend Jake.

What???

Did Jake send out the BATMaybeImdoingitwrong signal from out of the thread, you know this one labelled Old Doctor Who, after that programme you claim to hate so much you could not possibly wish to be reading a thread labelled Old Doctor Who or are you just talking shite.

Ladies and Gentlemen, place your bets.

[Maybe Im Doing It Wrong]

Well no, it flashed up that Jake had posted in this thread and, knowing that he doesn't like Doctor Who, I thought I'd check out what he'd said.

I'm just pointing out that, given its hideous ubiquity, Jake's hatred of Who makes more sense than, say, a hatred of Babylon 5. That's a fair enough point, isn't it?

[Talulah, really!]

Well no, it flashed up that Jake had posted in this thread and, knowing that he doesn't like Doctor Who, I thought I'd check out what he'd said.

Yeeeeeeeah riiiiiiiighttttttt.

You are complaining about how apparently Doctor Who is everywhere, so what do you do? Plunge into a discussion about Doctor Who in a thread labelled Old Doctor Who to strike a pose about how you hate it and that other boring standby, "look at me everybody I don't like........(drumroll please).......football."

MIND=BLOWN!!!!!

Three cheers and hail the all conquering iconoclast.

Jake's hatred of Who makes more sense

It's fairly clear that Jake's hatred of Who makes no fucking sense whatsoever.

than, say, a hatred of Babylon 5. That's a fair enough point, isn't it?

No. What does ubiquity have to do with it, except by implication a quick wee sneer at the mass audience?

[Sexton Brackets Drugbust]

I'll take your word for it, but in my experience it's at least slightly lower key these days then it was in the mid 90s/early 00s

I was speaking to some new mates at a music festival and the subject of football was raised. I fessed up to not being a fan then another lad said he didn't really like it either, but that he "got into it because, well you have to." I found this attitude quite depressing. Not so much 90's 'in yer face football' as the 'quietly resigned to the fact that you can't fight it', defeatist turn of the century variety.

Still, I manage to avoid it. I won that one!

Anyway, Dr. Who...

[Maybe Im Doing It Wrong]

I would have thought it was obvious what ubiquity has to do with it. There are many things I dislike: among others football, cricket, golf, Charlie Chaplin, anime, prawn cocktail crisps, Radiohead, plain chocolate, Agatha Christie and David Hare.

But, you see, I don't have David fucking Hare constantly forced down my craw, do I? The TV shedules aren't stuffed with his plays, and programmes about the making of his plays, and interviews with him aren't in every magazine. And it's not on the news when an actor in one of his plays changes. And posable  David Hare models aren't in all the shops I go in. So David Hare is not ubiquitous. So I find it easy to ignore him. Not so Doctor Who.

[Maybe Im Doing It Wrong]

You can imagine how pleased I was when there was an episode where the Doctor played football.

[Tokyo Sexwhale]

Aren't there any Whovians who feel like this? Nobody who thinks "it's overkill. It's too much. It'll backfire - peope'll get sick of it and they'll cancel it again."

But it's about 13-14 hours of telly a year.  On a Saturday early evening when it's quite easy to be doing other things.

I quite successfully manage to avoid EastEnders, Coronation Street and the Top 40 charts, which are surely far more ubiquitous?

RE: Jake - there's no rational debate about the merits or otherwise of a show that he seems to associate with old traumas.  That's nothing to do with how good or bad the acting, plots or quality of the television show.  It's something personal to Jake.  Being bullied at school for being obsessed with Doctor Who by Sweeney-loving football fans is not an experience shared by many others.

Other than sharing sympathy for those experiences, where can we go with the discussion that Jake wants to have?

[Mister Six]

You can imagine how pleased I was when there was an episode where the Doctor played football.

What were you doing even watching the show if you hate it that much?

[Maybe Im Doing It Wrong]

I wasn't. There was a clip on something.

All I'm saying is that ubiquity engenders strong feeling. If something is very popular a certain number of people are going to get rubbed up the wrong way about it, which is something Whovians didn't have to worry about pre 2005.

[Mister Six]

They wouldn't have to worry about it now if haters would stay out of threads marked 'Doctor Who'.

[Maybe Im Doing It Wrong]

Don't much care for the word 'hater' ( at least you didn't say 'denier') but you have a point, so I'll piss off now.

As you were.

[Bad Ambassador]

I think that there was a missed opportunity in Season 7 to develop the Brigadier over the course of the stories.

In Spearhead from Space, he's the reliable military man.
In Silurians, he's showing a lot more edge, ultimately wiping out the Silurians for their perceived threat even though that is, as far as he knows, an act of genocide. [nb]The last scene, where the Doctor and Liz see the base blow up, originally had the Doctor give a speech about how much scientific progress could be made from their knowledge. Jon Pertwee objected, and it was changed to something much darker: "That's murder. They were civilised, intelligent beings. And he's just wiped them out."[/nb]
The Ambassadors of Death shows us the corollary of this attitude with General Carrington, an unreasoning xenophobe in the most literal sense, convinced that the alien ambassadors are hostile simply because their biology is inimicable to ours - they are naturally super-radioactive - and so he tries to set them up as aggressors in order to start a war. This story would really profit from some parallel being drawn between Carrington and Lethbridge-Stewart, especially since the Silurians are mentioned in the first episode.
The whole thread climaxes with Inferno, where we meet Lethbridge-Stewart's counterpart in a parallel universe where Hitler won or something similar (the details are never locked down. The impression is given that the production saw Star Trek: Mirror, Mirror and assumed that all parallel universes are evil). Brigade-Leader Lethbridge-Stewart is a vicious, cowardly bully. As one character notes, he's full of bluff and bluster when he has a bunch of soldiers to back him up, but when the Earth splits open and everyone's circling the drain he's not much use to anyone.
At the end of the penultiamte episode, he pulls a gun on the Doctor and demands to be taken back to the other universe. The Doctor tells him that it is simply not possible, and Liz's counterpart shoots him in the back, allowing the Doctor to get away. What might have been a little more interesting would have been for the Brigade-Leader to really make it back to the Doctor's universe and for the Brigadier to meet him and see what his small-minded, little Englander attitude might ultimately lead to. This would push the chracter towards his increasing open-mindedness and softening in later stories, as he has seen first-hand what his future might be otherwise. One could say that the Brigade-Leader was Lethbridge-Stewart's Valeyard.

On the other hand, Ambassadors and Inferno are both three hours long and already have enough going on with scary blokes in spaceships and the world blowing up. Although Evil Benton is also great.

[Small Man Big Horse]

Yes, it is.  Well I think so, anyway.

Thanks for the recommendation, I watched it tonight and it was very enjoyable stuff. The main attraction was of course the Brig, so it was nice to see him get a fair amount of airtime (and

Spoiler alert

finally shoot an alien and for it to work, too!

[close]

) but the rest of the story was also fairly fun.  I haven't watched much of the show in the past, and I think my main problem with it is Sarah Jane herself, funnily enough, all the Mumsy "I Love You So Much Luke" stuff grates on me. It's a nice moral message of course (and I applaud the show in general for having this and other strong ones) but it doesn't need to be handled quite so heavily. When Sarah Jane's running around and kicking ass, she's a much more likable character.

[biggytitbo]

It's fucking everywhere Biggy.

Where? Unless you go out looking for it, its hardly beating you into submision everywhere you go. I occasionally am assailed with some unwanted X- factor and that makes me cross, but I wouldn't go into a forum of people that like it and tell them sll how unbelievanly tedious the thing they like is.

[Phil_A]

I wasn't. There was a clip on something.

All I'm saying is that ubiquity engenders strong feeling. If something is very popular a certain number of people are going to get rubbed up the wrong way about it, which is something Whovians didn't have to worry about pre 2005.

I assure you Jake's hatred of Who(whotred?) is not just because of it's current ubiquity(although it adds fuel to the fire, naturally). I can remember him ranting about it as far back as the early 2000s, when "the show" still couldn't get arrested.