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Dodgy race bits in old films, Boss

Started by An tSaoi, January 27, 2011, 01:10:46 PM

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An tSaoi

It's very annoying when a well-regarded film of yersteryear is undermined by the racial attitudes of the time. Obviously you're supposed to grin and bear it because That's Just The Way Things Were Back Then™, but it makes it harder to say "Wow it was so ahead of its time", or "It holds up just as well now as the day it was made"; or any of the other stock quotes we use for old films.

I saw Gone With the Wind the other day, a thoroughly draining and unrewarding experience. [nb]I enjoyed the famous bits everyone has already seen (the burning of Atlanta, that shot of the wounded prisoners, "Frankly my dear..." etc) but the other three and three quarter hours? They've kept the rest of it well hidden all these years. Scene after scene of annoying spoilt people standing in front of an orange painting of a sunset saying "Ah do decleh" in between endless marriages while the most melodramatic soundtrack in the world plays without reprieve. Who knew the American Civil War was so dull? There's a classic film in there alright, but it's mixed in with an even longer, rubbish film.[/nb] It's set during the tail end of the slavery era, so you can't complain that the white characters own the black ones. That's just historical accuracy. The problem is, the film doesn't seem to be against this. They doddle about like good little negroes, occassionally stopping to say "Lawdy lawdy Miz Scah-let!" You'd wonder why anyone fought for their freedom when they evidently lived such content lives. Surely in 1937 they realised that was bollocks?

Tiny Poster

Quote from: An tSaoi on January 27, 2011, 01:10:46 PMSurely in 1937 they realised that was bollocks?

Erm, the Civil Rights movement wouldn't occur for nearly three more decades.

An tSaoi

Erm, I know that.

I wasn't expecting them to espouse equal rights and emancipation, just "Slavery may not have been an entirely good thing for the slaves". Is that too much to ask?

Cerys

The treatment of the slavery issue is deliberately open - partly because Margaret Mitchell left the moral judgment to the reader; and partly because, since the story is centred around a self-obsessed character, there's a fair amount of subject dictating form - Scarlett doesn't think about the morality of it, so it isn't dealt with.

Tiny Poster

An, you're overestimating Hollywood's sensitivity towards racial minorities.

In 1946, James Baskett was the first black American male to be awarded an Oscar - an honorary award for Song Of The South. Of course, he couldn't actually attend the ceremony in Atlanta due to the city's segregation laws.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

I get what An_tSaoi is saying. However at that time white folk would be so conditioned and indoctrinated to find that acceptable the majority probably didn't question it morally (I hear you can teach people some right old cobblers if you start early enough). In terms of what the slaves thought, they probably nearly all wanted freedom but couldn't see a way there and didn't feel empowered. We know that there was frequent low level resistance and disobedience but an entire society was deliberately kept apart and leaderless for a reason (one of the more interesting reasons, I believe, is Guilt).

I have less idea about the shift in attitudes in two generations though. That seems quite impressive to me. Alarming how normal vile and despicable things can seem at the time and how vile and despicable they can seem even a very short time afterwards. Even stuff like the anti-terror laws our government seems to be looking back on and thinking, "shit...we let that happen??".

In terms of Gone with the Wind, you have to just accept they were trying to make a film with a realistic looking backdrop of everyday life at the time. Oh and what Cerys said about subject dictating form is a good point, I've never really thought about Gone with the Wind above 'meh this is going on a bit' to be honest.


Blumf

Would this be the wrong place to bring up the recent, er.., white-washing of Huckleberry Finn for schools.

Back to films, things were different back then (1992):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gayniggers_from_Outer_Space
QuoteThe film tells the story of a group of intergalactic homosexual black men from the planet "Anus" who discover the presence of female creatures on planet Earth. Using guns which shoot deadly rays, they proceed to eliminate females one by one from Earth, which ensures them the ecstatic gratitude of the previously oppressed male population.

jutl

There's a bit in A Matter of Life and Death where each old worlder in the celestial jury is being replaced by an American. The point being made is that the Americans are really just old worlders who moved to America (the film was funded as wartime propaganda to persuade the British that the Americans - despite coming over here and screwing all the women while the men were away at war - were basically sound sorts and look - David Niven is having a poke at one). As each juror is replaced, it is with an American with a background in the same old world country as the original juror's, until we get to the Indian, who is replaced with an African American.

Gulftastic

Quote from: jutl on January 27, 2011, 04:19:00 PM
There's a bit in A Matter of Life and Death

Speaking of that wonderful film, I don't like that heaven appears to be segregated, and everyone in the court room sits with their own kind, so to speak.

In 'Fun With Dick & Jane', the couple are happily robbing bars, until Dick goes into a black bar and demands 'get 'em up!'. He then notices it is a black bar, and just meekly backs out.

NoSleep

Smart Money, featuring Edward G. Robinson & James Cagney (and uncredited black actor, John Larkin) has some choice racist material featured, particularly the bit where Edward G. rubs "a n**ger for luck" (his line in the film).

NoSleep

And do I need to mention the first major (silent) epic film from Hollywood, ever, was originally to be entitled "The Clansmen"?



FFS


Pomegranates

Quote from: Tiny Poster on January 27, 2011, 01:18:20 PM
Erm, the Civil Rights movement wouldn't occur for nearly three more decades.
Actually it started after the Civil War ended in 1865. The most significant improvements happened in the 1950s and 60s but they needed the foundations build by the earlier civil rights movements in order to happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Civil_Rights_Movement_%281896%E2%80%931954%29

Tiny Poster


biggytitbo

All those bits in Tom and Jerry cartoons where Tom gets blown up and he turns to the camera with a blackened face and big red lips and does the old man river bit.

NoSleep

Did the black maid in all the Tom & Jerry cartoons pass you by?

Just read that they've redubbed her voice from the old cartoons in recent times.

Ignatius_S

Quote from: NoSleep on February 01, 2011, 05:10:19 PM
Did the black maid in all the Tom & Jerry cartoons pass you by?

Just read that they've redubbed her voice from the old cartoons in recent times.
Yes, to an Irish brogue as apparently that isn't stereotypical – but the authority figure of the housekeeper was written out due to protests.

The actress who played the character, Lillian Randolph, co-starred as Birdie in The Great Gildersleeve, an incredibly popular radio show that ran from 1941 for 16 years and for many of those years, it was co-written by John Whedon, grandfather of Joss.

The Great Gildersleeve is an interesting show for a number of reasons, such as it was the first sitcom to revolve around a single-parent family (the titular Throckmorton P. Gildersleeve raising his orphaned niece and nephew). The role of Birdie is another reason of interest, although she might appear to be overly stereotypical (and there were complaints that she was) in the show, she represents the female adult voice in the household and is clearly more than just a servant – in fact, when it comes to parenting, she's more level-headed than Gildersleeve - particularly as the show evolved.

One episode that I find interesting is one set in Easter – the family and Birdie are going to an outdoor sermon in the countryside; Birdie is going to be singing a solo, which is clearly a big deal. Gildersleeve is driving and knows a shortcut, which leads to them being on the wrong side of the valley where the services are being held – so they're going to be unable to join their congregations. I use the plural, because if the listener were unaware up to this point, it's now obvious that the worship was segregated  and they would have gone to different churches. Their solution is to hold their own worship, which I gather would have been quite a daring thing to do on the show.

biggytitbo

Quote from: NoSleep on February 01, 2011, 05:10:19 PM
Did the black maid in all the Tom & Jerry cartoons pass you by?

Just read that they've redubbed her voice from the old cartoons in recent times.
Was that character really particuarly racist?

NoSleep

It's racist inasmuch as it's portraying a black woman in a stereotypical role as a menial.

Tiny Poster


NoSleep

There's lots of less well known Warner Bros cartoons with racist portrayals of both black people and native americans.

Oh yeah, and the film White Zombie, set in Haiti. There's plenty of racist assumptions in the film but there's one particular line, uttered when discussing the possible fates of the missing woman: "In the hands of the natives!? Better dead than that!"

Let's not forget the persistent racism against Arabs that exists to this day.

Mister Six

Quote from: NoSleep on February 01, 2011, 06:06:28 PM
It's racist inasmuch as it's portraying a black woman in a stereotypical role as a menial.

Although being English I always assumed that she was the homeowner.

mycroft

Mammy from Tom and Jerry had always been my favourite cartoon character, it's sad she's being airbrushed out of history.

(I did see one of the re-dubbed episodes once, where she suddenly came in and went, "Oh begorra!" It just confused me.)

biggytitbo

Quote from: NoSleep on February 01, 2011, 06:06:28 PM
It's racist inasmuch as it's portraying a black woman in a stereotypical role as a menial.
In fairness it is a 5 minute cartoon about a mouse inflicting violence on a cat.

Tiny Poster

Bugs Bunny Nips The Nips was a 5 minute cartoon about a rabbit inflicting violence on... well, you get the gist.

NoSleep

Quote from: biggytitbo on February 01, 2011, 10:01:50 PM
In fairness it is a 5 minute cartoon about a mouse inflicting violence on a cat.

...that reflects the racist notions of its society.

Dead kate moss

Which Tom & Jerry was it that made it explicitly clear that 'Mammy' (I've never heard that before, who refers to her as that?) isn't the house-owner?

And how many current US shows (and households!) have non-white house-staff?

Desi Rascal

#26
Edit The black characters name was "Mammy Two-Shoes"


there were a couple of episodes where a white couple leave mammy briefly in charge invariably the house gets trashed on their return

Actually thats a false memory on my part, the character i am thinking of was a much later incarnation from the (british?) tom and jerry comic strip called Maidy who was drawn as a white woman in a victorian maids outfit.

yeah the Mammy stereotype is ostensibly benign but really was a way of de-sexualising  black women. Furthermore Jerry was a little cunt it sickens me to see the mouse apologists churning out their pro-mouse propaganda the cheese stealing over represented in the media big eared little twat

http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/news/jimcrow/mammies/

Mister Six

Quote from: Desi Rascal on February 01, 2011, 10:56:56 PM
Edit there were a couple of episodes where a white couple leave mammy briefly in charge invariably the house gets trashed on their return, The black characters name was "Mammy Two-Shoes"

I never saw them - presumably they were purposely not shown in the 80s and 90s when I was growing up.

Dead kate moss

Totally agree that Jerry is a little cunt.

But I also really like it when they become friends and team-up for some reason.

Oh I've drifted off-topic...


Desi Rascal

 Blaxploitation probaly deserves its own thread, the seventies were intresting though none of that lets pretend black people can't spell bullshit that liberals fucking use to excuse the failings of the public school system.



http://www.chgs.umn.edu/histories/otherness/images/tenlittlenigers.jpg

in the us became

http://www.moviepostershop.com/ten-little-indians-movie-poster-1020462529.jpg

because in those days no-one gave a shit about lynching Native Americans