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March 28, 2024, 08:44:19 PM

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Aaargh bastard ripoff merchants

Started by Famous Mortimer, February 22, 2011, 08:30:44 AM

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Still Not George

Quote from: HappyTree on February 27, 2011, 01:22:38 AM
I didn't say the narrative would or should be passive. I said "over which they have some measure of control", alluding to my previous comment about "interactive films". What I'm trying to do is understand your reactions, but frankly you've now completely lost me.

So I don't care what you want or like any more. I like adventure and RPG games that have play, decision-making and narrative and you only seem to like whatever personal definition of gaming you have which I don't quite comprehend. So you are welcome to pursue your gaming and development along any lines you see fit and I'm sure our paths will never cross in the gaming world.

I'm aware that my personal vision of where I want computer games to go is not terribly well-communicated, mainly cos it's all in the form of a sort-of fever dream floating around just above my subconscious. I have tried on here before, but it kinda turned into a TL;DR type ramblefest.

Mister Six

Quote from: Zetetic on February 26, 2011, 12:23:25 PM
Why is this 'better'? All you've done is analyse what 'piracy' simply means. If EA makes no more money off it, relative to it being bought second-hand, why precisely is limiting the number of copies in itself a end?

Let's say that EA make £10 every time someone buys a new £40 game. If you buy a copy then sell it on they've lost £10 profit from that new guy. If you copy it and make it available on the web, however, then there's no limit to the number of people who can download it, and thus no limit to the amount of money that they can lose out on. If 10 people download your cracked copy then EA have lost out on £100 and still only made the £10 that you paid in the first place.

So as far as they're concerned, second-hand buying is preferable to piracy but in both instances they're losing out.

QuoteI don't think that one need to have the extreme example of individual who'd buy no games if they then couldn't sell them off, but rather that (obviously, I would have thought) there are people who buy more games new because they can sell the games off. Even if you don't buy that people see games as more valuable because they sell them on (although I know a few console owners who precisely do take this approach), you can simply look at it as individuals that sell their games on now have money which they will likely spend on another game.

But if I sell four £40 games second-hand I'll probably only have enough money to buy one more £40 game. So EA has made £50 off me, but they're losing another £40 off the others, who might well have bought those games first-hand anyway if there wasn't a second-hand market.

It would take a massive study of game-buying habits to figure it out, but I'll bet that companies would make more money if there were no second-hand market even though individual gamers might buy fewer games per year (because all the folks who only buy second-hand games, thus contributing nothing to publishers and developers, would buy at least one or two a year, minimum).

QuoteOh, sure. It's more clouded in this case, so I certainly think that EA are justified in charging something to access Autolog. But I also think that they really could, and should, do more to prevent people like FM not knowing what's "in the case", and beyond that the price that they charge isn't at all commensurate with their server costs

They should absolutely make Autolog's first-hand-only aspect clear on packaging; do they not do that? Beyond that, however, I'm not sure what else they can do. They can hardly put pressure on shops, because shops are their only point of sale and it's not like they have any leverage with them.

A better tack might be to report Game, CEX and similar to consumer rights watchdogs and explain the situation. I'm sure that something could be done if the authorities knew about this.

QuoteThe blu-ray example more concords with simple game content being included in first sale, but not in the second. Apologies if I didn't make that clear. I'm still curious what people's position would be on that, intuitively. I just wonder if I'm entirely out-of-whack in sympathising with FM.

I only have Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 (Shale and Zaeed content, respectively) as examples of game content but in both instances the packaging makes it pretty clear that it's a time-limited bonus to encourage early sales rather than a bit of the finished game that's missing if you buy it second-hand (if you bought DA:O first-hand after... I think six months after release, you wouldn't get the Shale DLC).

Mister Six

Quote from: Still Not George on February 27, 2011, 01:44:28 AM
I'm aware that my personal vision of where I want computer games to go is not terribly well-communicated, mainly cos it's all in the form of a sort-of fever dream floating around just above my subconscious. I have tried on here before, but it kinda turned into a TL;DR type ramblefest.

A really bloody interesting one, though. Still a bit miffed that you didn't continue the discussion in the story thread, because I'm really interested in what you have to say on the subject.

Mister Six

Quote from: HappyTree on February 26, 2011, 08:09:40 PM
That may well be where things are heading if the fanboys and early adopters can't take up the slack.

Speaking as both a fanboy and an early adopter, it does get on my tits a bit that it's on me to keep the games you like in production. Pick up your own slack, you rotter!

QuoteMusic has gone that way, I have no idea how groups these days can afford to live and produce the work they do. But then they do have live gigs as a parallel revenue stream. It's clear that the days of the Super Group are over.

Music's not entirely similar, though - it's suffered parasites even more than the games industry. Also, you can make stunning music - comparable with chart tunes[nb]Well, depending on what's 'in' at the time - god forbid orchestras come in vogue.[/nb] - with relatively little expenditure and time. The same is not true of video games.

QuoteMaybe we're reaching a point, then, where the market just cannot sustain the level of technology being developed in gaming systems. If it's so expensive to produce an HD game with all the realism and AI depth then they will have to stop doing it, or persuade gamers that it is worth paying the price required.

So let's say they stop producing video games in HD with flashy graphics. What then? Sounds like a crash in the console market waiting to happen...

I'll go with SNG's doubts regarding integrating games and movies. Partly because I don't see how that could possibly be implemented, partly because I'd rather see developers explore the possibilities inherent in the medium rather than ape another one and mostly because Hollywood looks like it's fucked too, or at least on the road to fuckdom.

Still Not George

Quote from: Mister Six on February 27, 2011, 11:40:27 AM
A really bloody interesting one, though. Still a bit miffed that you didn't continue the discussion in the story thread, because I'm really interested in what you have to say on the subject.

And probably at some point I'll be able to expound further, but in that particular one I kind of worked my way into a circle by the end of it. As I said to HT, I really do have something floating around in the back of my head regarding the relationship between narrative and games (as is pretty obvious), but I need time to work it through, and I'm spending all my time making games and parenting. I should probably have explained that in the thread, but it would have looked like a cop-out at the time.

Mister Six

Fair enough. You're a busy chap. I shouldn't be badgering you.

Still Not George

No, you should, especially when I just wasted an entire night dicking about with Pedro_bear over on GB. I need prodding or I'll let it lie.

Mister Six


HappyTree

Quote from: Still Not George on February 27, 2011, 12:02:36 PM
And probably at some point I'll be able to expound further, but in that particular one I kind of worked my way into a circle by the end of it. As I said to HT, I really do have something floating around in the back of my head regarding the relationship between narrative and games (as is pretty obvious), but I need time to work it through

Fair enough. Sorry I got irritated, I'm in a rather easily irritated mood these days. I do think that we just look for different things in games, in the sense of "gaming" as a category. From time to time I like being challenged and having a game mechanic to figure out and beat, but mostly I want to be transported into a different world. Basically, I want to be able to play along with a narrative as if I am living inside a sci-fi or fantasy book. I'm not so keen on anything like a sim where I have to control every little thing and prove my prowess.

I heard a developer refer to an easy difficulty setting as "story mode" and that describes how I prefer to play games. Maybe having an easy setting does cater to gamers like me, or maybe the narrative and gameplay styles will diverge more obviously in the future.

Perhaps the term "interactive film" does connote less interaction than I would like. I'd say that titles like Fahrenheit or The Longest Journey are what I see as the perfect game.

Still Not George

Quote from: HappyTree on February 27, 2011, 02:04:45 PM
Fair enough. Sorry I got irritated, I'm in a rather easily irritated mood these days. I do think that we just look for different things in games, in the sense of "gaming" as a category.
I'm not sure that's entirely true, I mean we've both stated that we love the Mass Effect series for example. I like things like that, where I can enjoy being told a (rather poor) story via epic cut-scenes and action sequences. To me, it's trashy, but I love trashy things! I genuinely enjoy watching movies full of explosions and running and gunning. I see games like that as being Die Hard-esque.

QuoteFrom time to time I like being challenged and having a game mechanic to figure out and beat, but mostly I want to be transported into a different world. Basically, I want to be able to play along with a narrative as if I am living inside a sci-fi or fantasy book. I'm not so keen on anything like a sim where I have to control every little thing and prove my prowess.
See, I want both. I want everything, I want it all! I want games where I control seven tiny dwarfs building burrows with endless detail leading up to an EPIC STORY OF LOVE, DEATH AND FATE!!!1! etc.

My problem is that I can sort of feel something just over the horizon in gaming, especially in terms of storytelling and the interaction between player, game and story. We've got the technology now, I think, we just need a jump in the way people think about gaming. I spend a bit of my time hanging around the arty bits of the game industry hoping I'll see the beginnings of it, but mostly they spend their time masturbating each other's egos and wittering on about the human impact of gaming - an important subject, but nothing to do with the art of games themselves!

Mister Six

Quote from: Still Not George on February 27, 2011, 02:26:29 PM
We've got the technology now, I think, we just need a jump in the way people think about gaming. I spend a bit of my time hanging around the arty bits of the game industry hoping I'll see the beginnings of it, but mostly they spend their time masturbating each other's egos and wittering on about the human impact of gaming

Are you making anything yourself? Is that feasible? Perhaps CaBbers could help out with art, sound... I mean, Portal started off as a university project, didn't it?

Not that I've got any applicable skills. I quite like the idea of helping design a game but have absolutely no idea about how one goes about coding.

Still Not George

Quote from: Mister Six on February 27, 2011, 03:29:44 PM
Are you making anything yourself? Is that feasible? Perhaps CaBbers could help out with art, sound... I mean, Portal started off as a university project, didn't it?
I'm working on commercial stuff, generally small-scale, and pestering people for paid work. Survival is my primary thing right now.

But the biggest issue is, this is all inkling rather than solidity.

Geraint

Quote from: Consignia on February 26, 2011, 08:06:19 PM
I remeber SNES games cost at least £30 some places even upwards of £60. If anything, I think video game prices have gone against inflation.

yeah, SNES games were pretty much always £45-55 on relase, more if it had a Super FX chip or some shit. The 'Nintendo Classics' budget range that came out late-ish in the console's lifespan was selling ancient games like Mario Kart and Sim City for a 'bargain' £30. When the N64 came out launch and early games were often priced at £70, though luckily that didn't last and a couple of years on the price across the board for new releases on the dominant PS1 seemed to go down to £30 overnight

Zetetic

#73
Edit: Bah, sometimes even I know when to give it a rest.