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Why is Doom still quite a disturbing experience?

Started by Shoulders?-Stomach!, March 24, 2011, 01:59:28 PM

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Shoulders?-Stomach!

Reading Phil_A's mod thread and having played on the Doom games relatively recently, it struck me that they have a quality, despite their now vastly dated visuals that no longer exists in modern games.

I've always found it quite easy to immerse myself in the world of a game. It has a set of rules and you're free to stretch them however you like. Regardless of how the graphics are, if the gameplay works fine then I'm immersed. This is especially true of games in first person mode. My brain immediately switches to 'there' and it feels like no other experience.

Inevitably games that intended to scare and disturb have followed the path of simply more realism and more realism, making them closer to our own imaginations, closer to how we experience scares in movies and stories. However, when you look at Doom today, it takes on a rare quality. The world is genuinely scary and claustrophobic. For a start, with the music off the only sounds you hear are of monsters attacking you and guns firing. This has a sort of attritional effect that wears you down as you play. When you switch the game off you feel a sense of release, almost like waking up from a bad dream. But even so when you compare the crude sound effects to a modern game with a lush haunting score they don't stand up, right? Well actually, they do. They are far scarier. It is the minimalist principle- true, it happened more through necessity- (disk space, processing power at the time, etc) but the sensory result is the same. If the only thing you hear is a barrage of gun noises and shrieks, then you're entering a similar situation to a genuine war- just with a more rudimentary and simplistic schematic. But the neural responses are likely to be similar.

This is part of the appeal of rediscovering old games, that the experience of them can evolve over time- and you can gain a fresh perspective on what made it so good by comparing it to new games.

There's also something disturbing in the artwork that I think will become more pronounced as time goes by. In 50 years I am convinced early games will take on somewhat of an avant-garde following in the same way early cinema did. Anyway, with Doom the admittedly somewhat laughable monsters (I've always found the cacodemon quite silly looking, even when I was 7- and easy to kill) are just becoming ever more weird to look at.

It's also much less generic than a modern FPS, mainly because it was a forerunner and in many ways set a number of the conventions. But the actual gameplay feels more freeform- there's lots of open space with nothing much in. These days you'd have a sequence of set-pieces and checkpoints in something meticulously sculpted- but because you'd be expecting all that, the effect would be lessened somehow.

Modern FPSs can still be terrifying and disturbing. But there's always some distance between me and the game- too showy perhaps? Ninja Gaiden and Resident Evil's monsters are always cut-scene WHOA LOOK AT THIS TENTACLED MOTHERFUCKER. Silent Hill is always really quite tedious 'cockroaches are crawling up walls and someone with their head bowed is dawdling along moaning 'mummy' for some reason. It's almost like the more you expect them to push the envelope the less you're arsed by the final effect. Plus I think there's something inherently quite pathetic that sticks out like a sore thumb- that all that effort has gone into some almost absurdly freakish bit of gore/horror in the belief that it's what we all want. But predictability doesn't shit me up I'm afraid, it bores me.

At some point some developer will realise quite what's going on in Doom in terms of how the visuals and the sounds affect the player, take a pinch at the starkness and stillness and apply that to a modern game. I look forward to it.

madhair60

DooM works because it is a game, specifically trying to be a challenge for gamers, rather than a convincing escapist experience.  This is what makes it such a convincing escapist experience.  Three levels in you know the rules.  It's not Call of Duty funneling you through set pieces, it's a series of increasingly complex mazes filled to the brim with false wall panels and memorable monsters.  These things barely have AI, besides "aim and fire at the player".  You have no means of defence besides running, hiding and strafing.  There's no going prone, there's no cover system, no regenerating health.  It's pure, it's visceral, it's the Tetris of FPS's and it's never been bettered.

More coherent thoughts later.

Consignia

I never found Doom scary, apart from the jump scares when open a door and a large monster roar is heard. However, I've always found it a more compelling game than any other FPS. Personally, I feel it's easier to play because it's strictly a 2D game, and I don't have to manage a third axis which is a particular benefit to me since I have clinical spacky hands.

Tetris of FPS is quite an apt description, from my viewpoint.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Ok, perhaps scary is not the right word, though it has its moments. More a creeping sense of dread and paranoia. A sort of friendless empty space with no safe havens, no reasons, no explanations. Your entire bleak existence in the game is to desperately exist no matter what, even though your existence is a mere sequence of plugging droids and monsters full of bullets, sometimes in a grim procession, sometimes punctuated by long gaps and walks where what remains of your tether bleeds away through the pixellated walls and cuboid platforms. The first person perspective just seems to accentuate this even further.

I find Deus Ex a little bit like this in parts, but because there's so much to think about, and it isn't purely MONSTER ATTACK, it's more cerebral and therefore requires you to retain your humanity. It's a world with stimulants and therefore is not purely hostile. In comparison, Doom requires that you abdicate almost every aspect of your humanity bar your survival instincts. Which is astonishing.




placeholder

The genius bit is when the monsters start fighting each other.

Consignia

Quote from: placeholder on March 24, 2011, 03:32:30 PM
The genius bit is when the monsters start fighting each other.

That reminds, someone made an admin tool using Doom for some flavour of unix where each monster represented a system process, and killing the monster killed the process. You had to pray some core system process wasn't spawned a zombie or something weak, because monster in-fighting meant you lost control of your system quite quickly.

rudi

Quote from: Consignia on March 24, 2011, 03:40:23 PMbecause monster in-fighting meant you lost control of your system quite quickly.

Sounds like Doomy Dwyer territory to me.

Ha! DOOMy!

Oh dear.

Doom is one of my favourite computer games ever, I more or less grew up with the thing. Despite you saying that the game works best without music (or something to that effect), the PlayStation soundtrack is one of the precious few I'd still leave playing to this day[nb]I hate playing games to orchestral scores or soundtracks with the noteable exception of the GTA games where it is ESSENTIAL[/nb]. Dark and rich droney ambience a lá Aphex Twin's SAW Vol II, not made to heighten the effect of the action itself but, for me, it enhances the backdrop of pure Hellishness.

Doom (PSX) Music - Track15


CollaterlySisters

Apart from the atmosphere, it's so merciless: you can die of your wounds in a corner just as easily as be blown to smithereens.

The SFX are also a bit massively effective.

Imagine what playing this game in 1993 would have been like.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

I can remember. But even playing it back then, and well underage didn't have the same level of effect that playing it does now. The evolution of games has leant the game (and presumably quite a few others) a particular quality. It's now so detached from modern games, yet still realistic enough to be a definable 3d world that you'd have visions and nightmares about that it's become a dangerous, alluring entity. I wish I was going over the top here, but this is all true.

The graphics, the sfx, the world, the atmosphere, the experience of being in it, from the perspective of a 21st century gamer is possibly stronger and more immersive than it was at the time. Even in god mode you never feel safe, it just feels like covering yourself with a blanket in the middle of a tornado. The grinding, ceaseless, and rather quiet relentlessness of it all. There's something about calmly accepting the dated pixellated 'reality' as being real that transforms the experience. I really do feel like there's a series of breakthrough moments for retro gaming on its way that will hopefully improve the way new games are made.


Mister Six

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on March 24, 2011, 03:12:58 PMLots of things

Really great observations. I think much of it is down to the level designs, which - for all their video screen textures and bulkhead doors - don't actually look anything like a real space station would. Where are the toilets? Where are the cafeterias? Why does this one tiny room open onto a massive hall full of exploding barrels and green ooze? The levels have a dreamlike quality. You're not in a space station, you're in an idea of a space station. There's nothing recognisable, nothing that seems real, except for the cold, dead steel in your hands.

Plus, it's completely relentless. You're trapped in this nightmare world and the only company you have consists of wave after wave after wave of freakish Hellspawn and zombified humans. All you can do is kill and kill and kill, and your reward for doing so is a field of corpses behind you and nothing ahead but another weird environment and more creatures to kill.

Duke Nukem 3D's levels, with their toilets and mirrors and cinema foyers, felt like a revelation at the time - hey! Games can look and act like the real world! - but I think that the games it influenced ultimately kind of lost something that Doom had tapped into.

Big Jack McBastard

There's virtually no levity, Club Doom (was it?) was the only snippet I ever found, the mixture of hellish aggressive creatures and as Mr Six says; the unreal locations, make for a consistently hostile environment, the closest thing to home you ever find is the twitching remains of another marine impaled on a spike with their arms and legs chewed off.

"It could end well, couldn't it?".... "Nah, it just keeps getting more warped"

Consignia

Quote from: thehungerartist on March 25, 2011, 02:13:56 AM
The SFX are also a bit massively effective.

Imagine what playing this game in 1993 would have been like.

I remember thinking, wow this looks photo-realistic. A bit naive, but coming from Wolfenstein, nothing really compared.

Mister Six

I remember being astonished that the Doom movie dropped the 'Space Marines go to Hell' storyline for some bullshit about mutant monsters. It's such a simple, perfect idea. Why mess with that?

unky herb

One of my favourite games.

I play Risen3d which is one of about 7 billion source ports. The difference with Risen is that the monsters are rendered in 3D, but still keep the overal look of the original monsters. This is on top of having a much higher resolution, better water/explosions/trails/shadows etc.

But that's just the engine - the mechanics of the gameplay are what counts. The maps aren't just about being a maze with some keys. The types of monsters have a big impact on how the level is played. Not just in the obvious way - Hell Knights are tougher, demons are weaker - but also in how they affect ammo management. if you see a load of Sargeants then you should probably be killing them with a shotgun as they will drop shotguns themself. There is no point in ripping through them with your chaingun if you have full shotgun ammo as you cannot carry any more. Likewise, any levels with lots of demons and imps in can be real a ammo absorber. You definitely don't want to be reduced to the fist with most of the level to go.

People have probably played Doom and Doom II. Some of you may have played Final Doom with its mega hard wads The Plutonia Experiment and TNT: Evilution. If you liked these you have to go and play through some of the free megawads such as Scythe I/II. These are generally much harder, with ridiculous scenarios such as 3 Cyberdemons and a generous supply of rockets. You usually have the choice of a drawn out fight (fun), starting monster in-fighting (fun) or finding the 'cheat' way and running straight to the keys then the exit (fun).

Don't use God mode (pointless). Try not to quick save after every kill (takes all the tension out of the game). And remember not to fire a rocket launcher at point blank range.

I did kind of like Doom 3 but I found it much harder to kill the monsters and the pace was a lot slower. The portrayal of hell was beautiful though.

The nearest game in spirit is Serious Sam and Serious Sam 2nd Encounter (PC, Xbox). Big arenas, waves of enemies, good spread of weapons. Very old school. Plus it is proper 3D, and has you running around trying to take flying monsters out while simulateously aiming down at little tiny ones nipping at your feet. Plus is there a more worrying sound than the suicide bombers charging towards you from somewhere?

madhair60

Quote from: unky herb on March 25, 2011, 11:28:45 AMI play Risen3d which is one of about 7 billion source ports. The difference with Risen is that the monsters are rendered in 3D, but still keep the overal look of the original monsters. This is on top of having a much higher resolution, better water/explosions/trails/shadows etc.

I play ZDooM, which keeps the sprites, adds a few particles and a mouselook - though, since the monsters' hitboxes are still infinitely tall, the mouselook is just am embellishment.

QuotePeople have probably played Doom and Doom II. Some of you may have played Final Doom with its mega hard wads The Plutonia Experiment and TNT: Evilution. If you liked these you have to go and play through some of the free megawds such as Scythe I/II. These are generally much harder, with ridiculous scenarios such as 3 Cyberdemons and a generous supply of rockets. You usually have the choice of a drawn out fight (fun), starting monster in-fighting (fun) or finding the 'cheat' way and running straight to the keys then the exit (fun).

I've been playing Torment N' Torture, an excellent megawad and almost a total conversion.  On the subject of Final DooM, it's effectively pap.  Horrible little release, with broken, grinding levels.

QuoteAnd remember not to fire a rocket launcher at point blank range.

Except for that one time in Episode 3, right? :D :D :D

QuoteThe nearest game in spirit is Serious Sam and Serious Sam 2nd Encounter (PC, Xbox).

This is often said, but Serious Sam feels absolutely nothing like DooM.  DooM is a slow game, with generally slow monsters.  Very few wide open spaces.  Serious Sam is almost all wide open and just spawns 500 enemies at you.  It's visceral and fun for a bit but it has none of DooM's intricacy.

So, who else thought DooM 3 was a load of point-missing toss?  Hardly any ammo, loads of spurious "story", few monsters, constant flashlight/weapon switching, 90% of the game looking the same...

unky herb

Quote from: madhair60 on March 25, 2011, 11:34:09 AM
On the subject of Final DooM, it's effectively pap.  Horrible little release, with broken, grinding levels.

The difficulty is increased by a shitload. The skill level 'I'm too young to die' in Plutonia is equivalent to 'Ultra Violence' in Doom II. More Heavy Weapons Dudes, more everything. I found it tough, but wouldn't call it a grind.

There are some levels in most wads that just bore me but thankfully they are few and far between. Any map with plenty of Lost Souls annoys me. They are such annoying things and I feel like I'm wasting ammo on them. But they have a habit of creeping up on you and hurting you. Likewise 'hunt for the exit/door' can wear thin. Even with noclip and the map overlay you can miss the right switch or teleport pad.

Got any good YouTube clips? I am impressed by pacifist runs lately. I'm at work so I can't find any good examples.

madhair60

I think there were a few good ideas in Final DooM - there's a level in Plutonia I think, called "Hunted" which is just you in a maze.  Once you find the crucial item hidden within, a bunch of Arch Vile's get released in there with you.

So many of them are just piss-hard to the point of no longer being fun, though.  Final DooM just isn't my tastes.

unky herb

Quote from: madhair60 on March 25, 2011, 12:55:05 PM
I think there were a few good ideas in Final DooM - there's a level in Plutonia I think, called "Hunted" which is just you in a maze.  Once you find the crucial item hidden within, a bunch of Arch Vile's get released in there with you.

So many of them are just piss-hard to the point of no longer being fun, though.  Final DooM just isn't my tastes.

Ah yeah, is that the one where there are hidden pressure pads (
Spoiler alert
actually marked by double lines on walls
[close]
) that open a door somewhere else? That was the most frustrating level I've ever played. Every other 'frustrating' situation can be broken down bit by bit, you just work out which monster to pick off first, where to hide, but that was just a pain in the arse.

mcbpete

I actually really enjoyed Final Doom, I never played it on release and only got round to giving it a go about a year ago. I plated it on whatever the middle difficulty level is called and yes it was bloody hard but I actually ended up finding it to be more like a puzzler than an FPS. There were frequently moments where you'd be outgunned and you'd have to work out the route to safety. There's only level where you start off in a pillar with everyone shooting seven layers of shit out of you, clearly trying to fight them is a no-no so you spend the next few minutes trying to work out where exactly to run to before you can tackle the level properly ...

Last year over the course of about a month I did a session of working my way through all of Doom I, Doom II and Quake and I was really surprised by how well they still hold up to play through. Quake in particular (I used the Darkplaces mod to tart things up a bit - http://icculus.org/twilight/darkplaces/screenshots.html ) has one hell of an impressive atmosphere where you slowly get further and further into the dark medieval hellish world. I don't think I've played an FPS since then that's had such an effect on me of being in this other world since then -possibly the Half Life series but they tend to be reality based, and the moments that they're not (think Xen) it all goes horribly wrong...

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Funnily enough, I was going to cite Serious Sam as a game with similarly grinding attritional gameplay. But it doesn't have anywhere near the same feel because it's quite tongue in cheek and cartoon-like, and therefore a seperate and quite fun thing in its own way.

Return To Castle Wolfenstein is another possibility, but some of the level design reminds me more of a FPS version of the original Tomb Raider somehow. Though it feels similarly nightmarish and relentless. The levels just thunder on seemingly forever, with no safe havens.

Apropos of nothing, I really like Heretic and Hexen.

madhair60

Heretic, Hexen And Hexen 2 are gorgeous, wonderful games.  Hexen is particular doesn't get nearly enough love - it's obtuse and a little too sprawling, but has a wonderful bestiary and sense of rewarding exploration.  And the coolest boss monster ever, the Heresiarch.

Sprite based FPSs in general really ring my bell.

wheatgod


Paaaaul

There was an interesting show on maze games, including a lot on Doom - last week's One Life Left:No Continues show. It gets very philosophical.

http://www.onelifeleft.com/2011/03/16/one-life-left-no-continues-001-mazes/

NoSleep

I've had Doom on several platforms; SNES, Atari Jaguar, GBA and on the Nintendo DS; but it's only since I installed on my Mac (under OS X!!! it works!!!) that I've really fully appreciated the game; mouse/keyboard is the only way to go with a FPS, and this is still one of the best. Consignia has mentioned that it's a 2D game, but it's definitely 3D with mouse/keyboard; shooting above or below an enemy, which works in the console versions, has no effect. The game gets much faster on the computer, too, and playing in NIGHTMARE mode isn't quite so punishing.

Spiteface

Hmm... now you lot have made me want to fish out my PS1 copies of Doom/Final Doom, set up my PS2 again and play those...

I cannot get into a lot of FPS's these days - too many of them have too much pissing about at the beginning before you actually get to shoot stuff. Games like Doom just put you right in there.

Hmm... I do have a SNES emulator on my PSP... is the SNES version actually any good?

Consignia

The original DOS version is definitely 2d. It didn't have mouselook or any of that gubbins. You must be playing a source port of some description where they add 3d elements. It does have some clever things to make it look 3d though.

NoSleep

Quote from: Spiteface on March 27, 2011, 04:48:02 PM
Hmm... now you lot have made me want to fish out my PS1 copies of Doom/Final Doom, set up my PS2 again and play those...

I cannot get into a lot of FPS's these days - too many of them have too much pissing about at the beginning before you actually get to shoot stuff. Games like Doom just put you right in there.

Hmm... I do have a SNES emulator on my PSP... is the SNES version actually any good?

The SNES version was the first that I played (on an actual SNES) and that made me a lifelong fan of the game. There is one particular level where you meet a new kind of opponent for the first time, charging at at you from the end of a long corridor; that really had a genuine nightmare quality to it; possibly the first time a game really put the shits up me.

NoSleep

Quote from: Consignia on March 27, 2011, 04:52:15 PM
The original DOS version is definitely 2d. It didn't have mouselook or any of that gubbins. You must be playing a source port of some description where they add 3d elements. It does have some clever things to make it look 3d though.

It is using the same WAD files that are working in 2D on the DS version I'm running. I'm sure that headshots seem to waste enemies with less ammo (although it may just be my increased accuracy, generally).