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Dead Rising - What Am I Missing?

Started by Goldentony, April 16, 2011, 02:20:21 AM

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Goldentony

I'm never one to go batshit on things so quickly after picking them up, but three hours into the first Dead Rising game, I am absolutely baffled that anyone could get into this bollocks or have the desire to go any further. There's zero tension or suspense, there's no soundtrack to give you any sense of foreboding doom or horror save for a few decade old sounding shit hip hop tracks, you CANNOT FUCKING MOVIE WHILST SHOOTING (?!?!?!?), the zombies seem to be taking whatever is beyond a backseat in terms of story, the characters and the plotline are fucking dull as fuck, the main guy is dressed like an idiot, i've got about 5 unexplained missions according to this wristwatch thing, and most importantly absolutely fuck all of interest is happening at all. Genuine literal fuck all - I seem to have spent most of the game so far following a government cunt around quietly with the ability to maybe pick up a giant parasol if I want to and perhaps attack someone with it if I wanted to, but it wouldn't make much of a difference if I did or not.

Is it worth sticking with this shitfest then, or have I blown 15 quid down the bogs? The advert for Dead Rising 2 made that game seem like the greatest fucking thing, but using this as a lead in seems like a real mistake. I have walked around dressed like a Porno Cinema manager for three hours, taking photos of a skater boy kung fu kick some zombie prick in the face, and occasionally thrown a barrell at a zombie - all to be chased by three prison men in a big van out of the blue, with zero indication of what to do, or why to bother.

Does this game get remotely exciting?

Big Jack McBastard

The key to the game is leveling up before you even start, I think.

I tried to go through in one shot, as you would, and found it ball breakingly hard and utterly unhelpful, you're expected to go at things in a trial and error fashion (mixing nectar and friends and so forth) while facing down bosses that ruin you with ease and frequently make for game stopping moments where you're forced to go away and fight through the morass of enemies in your way back to a safe/save point. (Damn you Capcom!)

Meanwhile the timer ticks down and you end up with a shitty ending (or fucking the game off entirely, which is what I did). Getting your health reserve up appeared to be the key to survival and doing this was only possible through going XP farming and then starting afresh.

Also once you got hold the dual hand held chainsaws things got a bit more tolerable.

The first put me off the second though not through lack of effort, I plowed a fair few hours into it on a couple of occasions but I never once finished it satisfactorily. I suppose it's good if you like games that break your arse from the get go.

Spiteface

Dead Rising 2 is better. Much better.  More than one save slot, no needing to take photos and COMBO WEAPONS~!

Big Jack McBastard is correct, and it applies to both games.  Try and do a run-through or two by completely ignoring the story missions or "cases", and just spend the 3 days killing Zombies and such to level up. THEN have at it.


Famous Mortimer

That might be the answer, although it seems sort of a sucky one - "grind for three days, then you'll be hard enough to do the main game". I had the same sort of problem, but I thought there were too many zombies in it. You could kill and kill and kill and it never made the slightest bit of difference, and that may not be a problem for most (clearly not, judging by its popularity) but it just never grabbed me.

Consignia

Grinding is not the answer, you get too few point from menial tasks anyway. I don't think the game is that hard at all anyway, I completed the best story on my first time through without restarts, but if you want to level up to make it easier, plough through the story line, but don't worry about failing, and kill as many psychopaths as possible and rescue as many surviors as possible. You'll level up a hell of a lot quicker than grinding.

Also, the game isn't supposed to be scary, the zombies are largely a joke, that are a mild pest hindering you. A lot of the fun is dervived from all the crazy weapons you can find as guns a pretty much useless, like shoving a showerhead through ones skull and taking a photo of the gory shower. If that's not really your bag, the game probably isn't for you.

Mister Six

The first Dead Rising's rubbish, I'm afraid. Lots of good ideas all at odds with each other, and dragged down by a handful of truly dismal additions to the game (like the awful save system). It's like they had a production team full of brilliant, creative folks and one guy running it who was a complete moron.

I'm entirely with you on this. I cannot see the attraction at all. My few hours playing appeared to show no real learning curve, no real gameplay dynamic, too many jarring and sudden short cut scenes, unintuitive controls which feel clumsy, complete lack of tension, on and on...

Some people like it though, so it must be doing something right.

I loved it - very unique to itself, very Japanese (taking pictures of a zombie in lingerie gives "Erotica" points, for example). If anything I felt Dead Rising 2 was less individual, although just as enjoyable. Hard to quantify why that is though. Wish they'd make a PC port.

Rev

Quote from: Mister Six on April 16, 2011, 10:58:22 AMLots of good ideas all at odds with each other, and dragged down by a handful of truly dismal additions to the game (like the awful save system).

Nope, sorry, oi carn't be avin thart.

Dead Rising's save system is a bit of an early-warning system:  if you don't like it, you're probably not going to understand what the game's up to.  The way you describe it is as far from the truth as possible:  the design of the the thing is as tight as a very tight hell.  There isn't an ounce of fat on it, and every idea is there for a reason.

But it doesn't work for a lot of people, because that level of design seems so radical.  Loads of people moan about having to restart the phone conversation with the janitor blokey every time you get nudged, for example, but that's supposed to be an annoying setback.  As with a zombie film, the zombies aren't the main problem.  It's the distractions that lead you into their eager jaws that you need to worry about.

VegaLA

Quote from: Spiteface on April 16, 2011, 03:17:04 AM
Dead Rising 2 is better. Much better.  More than one save slot, no needing to take photos and COMBO WEAPONS~!


Big Frank is back in the main story mode for Dead Rising 2.

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2011/04/12/dead-rising-2-off-the-record-first-look-go-west-young-man/

Quote from: VegaLA on April 17, 2011, 03:10:13 AM
Big Frank is back in the main story mode for Dead Rising 2.

I may actually buy this even owning DR2 already. Most fun I've had with a game since L4D2 launched (not that I've stopped playing that since).

Mister Six

Quote from: Rev on April 17, 2011, 02:28:16 AM
Nope, sorry, oi carn't be avin thart.

Dead Rising's save system is a bit of an early-warning system:  if you don't like it, you're probably not going to understand what the game's up to.  The way you describe it is as far from the truth as possible:  the design of the the thing is as tight as a very tight hell.  There isn't an ounce of fat on it, and every idea is there for a reason.

Nah, it's a game at war with itself. It gives you a massive mall full of toys to mash up zombies with, but bolts them onto a game that expects you to avoid fighting rather than revel in it. It fills every corner with cool little ideas (like the running machines that you can use to get XP, or the rotating facial features on the lego man statue in the toy shop) but gives you so many 'cases' to worry about that you don't really have a chance to just fuck about and explore. And it's in the habit of throwing boss fights at you at unexpected moments, meaning that you're always holding back from using the really fun/useful weapons in case you need them later.

It encourages you to talk to survivors but presents their speech as s-l-o-w-l-y     a-p-p-e-a-r-i-n-g      t-e-x-t    rather than voice samples or text boxes, forcing you to stand around waiting for them to finish rather than actually running around and having fun (it's not like this even increases the tension of the game, because the zombs are programmed to stay out of those areas until the people have joined your party proper). Speaking of them, why make the bulk of the game an escort mission, then make the people you're supposed to be escorting completely ineffectual and impossible to guide and protect? Because the game designers are idiots, that's why.

It adds a levelling-up system that makes the game almost unplayable the first time you pick up the controller, encouraging repeated grinding/restarting before you can even begin the game proper. It uses a save game system that is presumably supposed to add tension but actually becomes frustrating to the point of unplayability: you need to save because the game is constantly making you run across vast areas full of zombies, but the only way to save is to run across vast areas full of zombies.

Even the 'unlimited time, fuck around and enjoy experimenting' mode has your life continually decreasing for no reason at all, and all the zombies in super aggressibe mode.

Every time they take one step towards fun, they take two steps back. And then they smash their own toes with hammers.

And that's without even mentioning ludicrous design decisions like having an inventory system that defaults to the next item in your (fixed, unchangable) rota, so that when your baseball bat breaks, you'll immediately start glugging life-saving orange juice (the next item along) even though you're at full health. Or the bloody fucking prisoners who are only beatable by exploiting shit AI and picking up a gun early on, and then have the fucking gall to respawn the next day!

Awful, awful, awful, awful. And yet so much of the game is really compelling and well-intentioned. I wish I could strip all that stuff out and put it in a game that's not crippled.

QuoteBut it doesn't work for a lot of people, because that level of design seems so radical.  Loads of people moan about having to restart the phone conversation with the janitor blokey every time you get nudged, for example, but that's supposed to be an annoying setback.  As with a zombie film, the zombies aren't the main problem.  It's the distractions that lead you into their eager jaws that you need to worry about.

'It's shit but it's supposed to be shit' is the worst defence of anything ever.

chand

Never played the first one, but played the second for a bit. The design choice that annoyed me most in that one was the "your kid must take Zombrex at a particular time" one. This is supposed to add tension, I assume, however because it's actually timed and there's no way of skipping time, it gave me the utterly tension-free situation of getting back to the safehouse 7 minutes early and having to put the pad down for 7 minutes and arse about online waiting for the in-game clock to tick on.

madhair60

Dead Rising reminds me the most of cunt-hard old roguelike games like Shiren the Wanderer.  If you can be arsed, incredibly rewarding. 
Spoiler alert
Like Daikatana yeah I said it fuckin come at me bro
[close]
[/sub]

Consignia

I don't think it's a particularly difficult game, to be honest. The first game has some real AI issues, which makes rescuing a pain, and some of the achievements are a real bitch. I think most people's problem is frustrating they find how different the game is from norm. I'll defend the save system to the death, it's never given me any jip.

Rev

Quote from: Mister Six on April 17, 2011, 07:47:15 AM
Nah, it's a game at war with itself. It gives you a massive mall full of toys to mash up zombies with, but bolts them onto a game that expects you to avoid fighting rather than revel in it. It fills every corner with cool little ideas (like the running machines that you can use to get XP, or the rotating facial features on the lego man statue in the toy shop) but gives you so many 'cases' to worry about that you don't really have a chance to just fuck about and explore.

When it was in the early stages of development, I'm sure that it was probably what you wanted it to be, and what a lot of people expected it to be:  shopping mall, toys, zombies, and a free-roaming splat-about.  If that was the game that had eventually been released, everyone who played it would have been sick of it within an hour.

This is where the tight design of the thing kicks in.  The environment is tiny, but the design makes it seem large.  It's all about the toys being just out of reach.

QuoteAnd it's in the habit of throwing boss fights at you at unexpected moments, meaning that you're always holding back from using the really fun/useful weapons in case you need them later.

Almost all of the boss fights are entirely expected, surely?  You're told about them, and then actively choose to seek them out.  The exception would be those fucking convicts, but they exist in a category of their own.  Wankers.

QuoteIt encourages you to talk to survivors but presents their speech as s-l-o-w-l-y     a-p-p-e-a-r-i-n-g      t-e-x-t    rather than voice samples or text boxes, forcing you to stand around waiting for them to finish rather than actually running around and having fun

An entirely deliberate move, and like the save system, something that I thought was archaic and stupid until I realised why it was being done in that way.  A voice being interrupted and starting from the beginning again would be a far more annoying way of executing a simple gameplay decision.

Quote(it's not like this even increases the tension of the game, because the zombs are programmed to stay out of those areas until the people have joined your party proper).

Are they bollocks!  Have another go at picking that mad bitch up from the jewellry shop early on in the game and see if you still believe that.

QuoteSpeaking of them, why make the bulk of the game an escort mission, then make the people you're supposed to be escorting completely ineffectual and impossible to guide and protect? Because the game designers are idiots, that's why.

Some of the AI's fucked, that's impossible to deny.  But that's a programming issue rather than a design one.  The biggest problem here is getting the silly buggers onto the platform near the vent, which is by far the most frustrating thing in the game.  The AI in general seems to be much better if you command your companions to run ahead of you rather than have them trail, though, and I'll accept that as a simple case of learning a tactic.

QuoteIt adds a levelling-up system that makes the game almost unplayable the first time you pick up the controller, encouraging repeated grinding/restarting before you can even begin the game proper.

Or it's a cleverly-embedded tutorial.  Something that games which start with a 'nightmare' level could learn from.

QuoteIt uses a save game system that is presumably supposed to add tension but actually becomes frustrating to the point of unplayability: you need to save because the game is constantly making you run across vast areas full of zombies, but the only way to save is to run across vast areas full of zombies.

And here's the rub:  if the save system makes it unplayable for you, you're not playing it well enough.  It limits your ability to re-load and try that bit again and again until you accidentally get it right.  It forces you to learn and to improve.

QuoteAnd that's without even mentioning ludicrous design decisions like having an inventory system that defaults to the next item in your (fixed, unchangable) rota, so that when your baseball bat breaks, you'll immediately start glugging life-saving orange juice (the next item along) even though you're at full health. Or the bloody fucking prisoners who are only beatable by exploiting shit AI and picking up a gun early on, and then have the fucking gall to respawn the next day!

Not arguing with any of that.  Although you don't need a gun to kill the convicts.

QuoteAwful, awful, awful, awful. And yet so much of the game is really compelling and well-intentioned. I wish I could strip all that stuff out and put it in a game that's not crippled.

Crucially, what would that be like?  As I said at the beginning, zombies in a shopping mall is the sort of game that writes itself in theory.  But only in theory.

Mister Six

Quote from: Rev on April 18, 2011, 01:52:35 AM
When it was in the early stages of development, I'm sure that it was probably what you wanted it to be, and what a lot of people expected it to be:  shopping mall, toys, zombies, and a free-roaming splat-about.  If that was the game that had eventually been released, everyone who played it would have been sick of it within an hour.

This is where the tight design of the thing kicks in.  The environment is tiny, but the design makes it seem large.  It's all about the toys being just out of reach.

This sounds like more 'the game is good because the game is bad' talk. I'm not saying that I wanted it to be nothing but novelty zomb-killing. I'm saying that the core of the game actually conflicts with that aim rather complimenting and fleshing it out. Look at, say, the infinitely more polished Red Dead Redemption for examples of how you can let the player sandbox until they're bored, let them do a few missions, then add more stuff to replenish the sandbox.

QuoteAlmost all of the boss fights are entirely expected, surely?  You're told about them, and then actively choose to seek them out. 

Well, you're told that (say) the fairground ride is broken. You're not told that there's a crazy clown waiting for you.

QuoteAn entirely deliberate move, and like the save system, something that I thought was archaic and stupid until I realised why it was being done in that way.  A voice being interrupted and starting from the beginning again would be a far more annoying way of executing a simple gameplay decision.

Or, you know, you just freeze the game and do an MGS-style talking heads bit. Or let the player press a button to speed the dialogue text up. Or just do a regular cutscene. If the choices are 'a shit thing that is annoying' or 'a shit thing that is even more annoying' then you scrap the idea and find something that works.

QuoteAre they bollocks!  Have another go at picking that mad bitch up from the jewellry shop early on in the game and see if you still believe that.

That was the one I was thinking of. You're both behind a counter. The zombies wander around and sometimes even surround you, but they don't/can't attack.

QuoteSome of the AI's fucked, that's impossible to deny.  But that's a programming issue rather than a design one.  The biggest problem here is getting the silly buggers onto the platform near the vent, which is by far the most frustrating thing in the game.  The AI in general seems to be much better if you command your companions to run ahead of you rather than have them trail, though, and I'll accept that as a simple case of learning a tactic.

Okay, fair enough. Not a design flaw, but still something that should have been caught by the project heads. And still something that makes the game FAKKIN RAHBBISH.

QuoteOr it's a cleverly-embedded tutorial.  Something that games which start with a 'nightmare' level could learn from.

Or it's a fucking shit tutorial that takes you out of the game, literally and metaphorically. Every other game manages to 'cleverly' embed tutorials into the narrative. Eschewing that tried-and-tested formula in favour of a grind that forces you to start the game over repeatedly is barking mad. I mean, being given the option to keep your stats in a new game is a good idea. Forcing people to use that option several times right at the start, however, is not.

QuoteAnd here's the rub:  if the save system makes it unplayable for you, you're not playing it well enough.  It limits your ability to re-load and try that bit again and again until you accidentally get it right.  It forces you to learn and to improve.

Well no, it doesn't limit your ability to try that bit again and again, it just puts a lot of fucking annoying shit between you and that bit until you lose the will to keep playing. And when you couple that with so many random factors (shitty AI; that damned inventory system causing accidents; there being, as far as I can tell, no connection between how hard you wiggle the joystick and how much health you lose in a zombie attack) being 'good' at the game is far more tied to luck than it ought to be.

As a side point, I think that making a tense game is more about the threat of death than actually killing the player. The more they die, the less dying actually means. When death is an inevitability, playing becomes a gruelling slog rather than a thrilling adventure. DR gets that balance all wrong.

And in any case

QuoteNot arguing with any of that.  Although you don't need a gun to kill the convicts.

Really? I stand corrected. I tried wailing on them with a bunch of weapons but none of them ever seemed to work (and running around the side of the vehicle when it's jammed on a tree is liable to unstick the car, which doesn't help).

QuoteCrucially, what would that be like?  As I said at the beginning, zombies in a shopping mall is the sort of game that writes itself in theory.  But only in theory.

I don't know, I haven't really spent a lot of time thinking about it and I don't really have the time now. I know what I wouldn't do, though...

VegaLA

This thread has inspired me to return to Willamette Mall with my boy Frank.

I enjoyed the original a great deal, although the AI was incredibly frustrating i'll admit. That 'Frank the pimp' achievement is just out of reach, (I did get the DR2 version of that achievement though, which must surly be a sign of how much the AI has improved) but one day....

Rev

We've both banged on at length so it's not worth boring everyone with back-and-forth, BUT I've got to pick you up on a few bits:

QuoteLook at, say, the infinitely more polished Red Dead Redemption for examples of how you can let the player sandbox until they're bored, let them do a few missions, then add more stuff to replenish the sandbox.

There's a massive difference there:  RDR is a 'sandbox' game, and Dead Rising isn't, and isn't supposed to be.  You're allowing the style to mislead you about the format.  You may as well criticise Space Invaders for not letting you go to Mars, because this is an arcade game with a plot strapped to it at heart, and it's only as intricate as it needs to be.


(Slow dialogue)
QuoteOr, you know, you just freeze the game and do an MGS-style talking heads bit. Or let the player press a button to speed the dialogue text up. Or just do a regular cutscene. If the choices are 'a shit thing that is annoying' or 'a shit thing that is even more annoying' then you scrap the idea and find something that works.

You could do that, but you'd completely fuck the game up!  Again, there's a reason why it's done in that way.  You can skip the cut-scenes, but when you're out in the wild you can't rush the dialogue on.  This is because you're dealing with a 'live' situation, and you're often conversing with complete idiots who need a bit of convincing.  How would skipping or speeding up the conversations work?  Would the zombies have to stand still, or would it be a case of making them jump ten paces forwards if you skipped the dialogue?  Freezing the game is bullshit, because it's the exact opposite of everything this one's shooting for.

Quoteit's a fucking shit tutorial that takes you out of the game, literally and metaphorically. Every other game manages to 'cleverly' embed tutorials into the narrative. Eschewing that tried-and-tested formula in favour of a grind that forces you to start the game over repeatedly is barking mad. I mean, being given the option to keep your stats in a new game is a good idea. Forcing people to use that option several times right at the start, however, is not.

This is the thing that I most like DR for.  An FPS might train you up, but anything with any kind of narrative - and particularly games that dabble in the horror genre - tend to break a bit off of the story to get you started before beginning properly.  What DR does is exactly the same as what games like Alan Wake and the various Silent Hills do.  In those, you begin in a forced tutorial, play some way into the game, and then start from scratch again.  It's exactly the same thing, only DR does it in a way that doesn't compromise its story and actually gives you the opportunity to learn from that wasted time.  You are just learning until you get your Frank up to halfway up his powers, at which point the game is a piece of piss.  Anything power-ups beyond that are effectively cheats, and just allow you to coast through the thing.


Rev

Oh, and the convicts?  Blue chainsaw or sledgehammer, and take the cunt at the back first.