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Breaking Bad- Season 4

Started by actwithoutwords, July 12, 2011, 05:16:04 PM

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Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

Mike has been coughing quite a bit lately. If they're following the standard rules of drama, that means he's got the lung cancer, which could possibly provide some sort of bond between himself and Walt.

Artemis

I don't really agree with talk of the writers 'pulling this back' - sure it's a little slower going but the last couple of episodes proved it's lost none of its tension; the scene with Walt getting drunk, knowing he was going to come out with something, was edge-of-seat stuff, for me at least. Would I like to see things move quicker? Yes, but I don't think the dip in the speed of the show extends to a dip in it's overall quality. I'd certainly like to see Gus disposed of soon; his two minute non-speaking appearances are going to become comical if the writers aren't careful - I'll give him one more of those before I start becoming annoyed by him.

Hopefully this will benefit from the Lost dynamic; as soon as the number of seasons had been decided before the show ends, the whole thing went into another gear. That said, I guess the season is already in the can, so at least we can look forward to a blinding fifth, I hope.

DougRocket

Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 15, 2011, 07:28:49 PM
Mike has been coughing quite a bit lately. If they're following the standard rules of drama, that means he's got the lung cancer, which could possibly provide some sort of bond between himself and Walt.

and not wanting Jesse to smoke in the car.

Tiny Poster

Isn't the series showing that Walt is back where he was at the start? Unrercognised for his chemistry, just another employee for a far larger construct, thought of as a loveable boob by his extended family, having to share his newfound independence with Skylar, no respect from Jesse, and with the knowledge that death could be around any corner.

Except now he might also go to prison.

mr. logic

I really didn't buy Gus's plan regarding Jesse, nor why Jesse had assumed it was a stick up and not a set up.  Superb last few scenes.

Little Hoover

I wouldn't have minded the slow pace as much if it weren't for the fact that so many other aspects seem to have come to nothing.
How much time was devoted to Marie and Hank, him being a dick to her, Marie going mad and pretending to be other people with estage agents, the implication there seemed to be that she'd have an affair with Hank's personal trainer. That whole character arc seems to have been reset now that he's had something else to distract himself with. There's been other thing as well that I've probably forgotten.

Old Thrashbarg

Those seem like slightly odd criticisms. Marie was viewing houses in order to steal, presumably to raise money to pay for Hank's treatment. That's now been solved by Skylar/Walt. And the potential discovery 'Heisenberg' being all that it took to get Hank back to normal was surely intentional to highlight just how invested in his work he is/was.

Edley

Quote from: Old Thrashbarg on August 17, 2011, 06:25:42 PM
Marie was viewing houses in order to steal, presumably to raise money to pay for Hank's treatment. That's now been solved by Skylar/Walt.

Skyler and Walt were already paying for Hank's treatment. Marie's recent stealing is an extension of her shoplifting in the first season.

Tiny Poster

Quote from: Old Thrashbarg on August 17, 2011, 06:25:42 PM
Those seem like slightly odd criticisms. Marie was viewing houses in order to steal, presumably to raise money to pay for Hank's treatment. That's now been solved by Skylar/Walt. And the potential discovery 'Heisenberg' being all that it took to get Hank back to normal was surely intentional to highlight just how invested in his work he is/was.

Exactly - the opening episodes were to illustrate how Marie and Hank's relationship can't function without Walt/Heisenberg to provide an outside focus. Hank needs to invest himself in his career or he begins to resent his wife. This is also nicely touched upon when we hear that the only time Hank leaves his room is when Walt comes to visit.

There's a lot more to this series than just meth escapades (methcapades).

Johnny Townmouse

I don't think the suggestion is that there is literally no forward momentum at all - and I think some of the progress made with both Hank and Walt's characters is interesting (I agree that the dinner scene was a really great way to show that Walt desires recognition and appreciation), I just feel it is not progressing in a way that I particularly enjoy.

I want there to be more about Walt's cancer, and I want to revisit the couple that he used to be in business with, and other than the lorry getting shot up, there is NOTHING going on with the Gus sanctioned assassination from last season. I don't buy that Jesse would be THAT upset after some of the stuff that has gone on over the last few seasons (not least trying to dissolve someone in his own bath), and the wasted minutes of screen-time spent showing those ridiculous scenes in Jesse's house just irks me.

Plus, who gives a fuck about the car-wash? I appreciate why it is in the story, but not the amount of time devoted to it.

But, aside from that, it seems to have lost some of the surreal, engaging tone of the previous seasons. The Grill episode and the man with the bell, the twins, and the plane crash flash-forwards, plus so many other things that made it special and interesting. It has become SO broad, and I think the way Gus killed the lackey was a real taste of how unnuanced this season has been, and sadly probably will carry on being. I hope I'm wrong.

Tiny Poster

Quote from: Johnny Townmouse on August 17, 2011, 06:58:29 PMI don't buy that Jesse would be THAT upset after some of the stuff that has gone on over the last few seasons (not least trying to dissolve someone in his own bath)

I'm not dismissing the rest of your post, but Gale is the only person Jesse has actually murdered over the course of the series. He's been through a lot of trauma already, yes (even prior to the series' events), but he's never actually taken someone else's life himself.

Johnny Townmouse

Quote from: Tiny Poster on August 17, 2011, 07:02:13 PM
I'm not dismissing the rest of your post, but Gale is the only person Jesse has actually murdered over the course of the series. He's been through a lot of trauma already, yes (even prior to the series' events), but he's never actually taken someone else's life himself.

Agreed, but the believability of his 'post-traumatic grief' and/or moral turmoil is quite subjective, and for me it doesn't work. The fact that it manifested itself as him having an open-crack house complete with a ridiculously TV Movie idea of what types of people would populate such a place, didn't help.

Little Hoover

I can accept Jesse might react in that way, its just that we had to watch him reacting in that way for 3 episodes, well 4 really if you can count the season premiere, and now going on a drive with Mike and getting a 2nd job is pretty much all it's taken for him to snap out of it.

Mister Six

Quote from: Johnny Townmouse on August 17, 2011, 06:58:29 PM
I want there to be more about Walt's cancer, and I want to revisit the couple that he used to be in business with, and other than the lorry getting shot up, there is NOTHING going on with the Gus sanctioned assassination from last season.

That's clearly heating up gradually, though - I'm guessing, so that when Walt knocks off Gus to become king of the castle, he finds himself in a nastier situation than ever.

QuoteI don't buy that Jesse would be THAT upset after some of the stuff that has gone on over the last few seasons (not least trying to dissolve someone in his own bath)

There's a difference between disposing of a body or seeing your colleague kill someone (especially when those instances are in self-defence) and cold-bloodedly shooting someone as pathetic as Gael in the face while he looks you in the eyes and begs you not to hurt him.

I would imagine.

Quoteand the wasted minutes of screen-time spent showing those ridiculous scenes in Jesse's house just irks me.

Three episodes was too much, but I liked the transition from Jesse desperately trying to party in order to keep people close to him (and to prove to himself that he's still capable of being his old self) to him slumming in the after-effects. Two would have been fine.

QuotePlus, who gives a fuck about the car-wash? I appreciate why it is in the story, but not the amount of time devoted to it.

But the car wash scenes have served as vectors for character development - to show how Skyler is adapting to life as a criminal; to show how Walt is learning to take advice from her seriously; and all the glorious stuff with them rehearsing their stories and being unable to deal with the surprising levels of adulation directed by Hank and Junior.

QuoteIt has become SO broad, and I think the way Gus killed the lackey was a real taste of how unnuanced this season has been, and sadly probably will carry on being. I hope I'm wrong.

Again, I don't think you're seeing the wood for the trees. The scene wasn't about Gus killing that guy, it was about the reactions he provoked from Jesse and Walt. Note how Jesse doesn't break eye contact with Gus until he's stepped behind him; that's the point where Gus marked him as being truly dangerous for the operation unless steered into the fold and away from Walt.

I agree that this season has been too slow, but I think you're being far too quick to write it off, and in doing so you're missing out on the true purpose of a lot of the scenes you criticise.

Johnny Townmouse

Quote from: Mister Six on August 18, 2011, 04:14:35 AM
That's clearly heating up gradually, though - I'm guessing, so that when Walt knocks off Gus to become king of the castle, he finds himself in a nastier situation than ever.

We are almost half way through the season and I don't see any clear sign that Walt has the capacity to knock Gus off the top spot. He can kill him, and of course he has the know-how to make the best meth, but he doesn't have the constitution to lead. I think it is fine, even necessary, to slow-burn towards the coup, but I personally do not like or enjoy or indeed respect the choices made in the lead up to that.

QuoteThere's a difference between disposing of a body or seeing your colleague kill someone (especially when those instances are in self-defence) and cold-bloodedly shooting someone as pathetic as Gael in the face while he looks you in the eyes and begs you not to hurt him.

I would imagine.

Completely, one is not the same as the other. I just don't buy that he would freefall in the way he has. I would much more prepared to accept that he is still fucked up over the death of his girlfriend - that was handled in a much more believable and creative way.

QuoteThree episodes was too much, but I liked the transition from Jesse desperately trying to party in order to keep people close to him (and to prove to himself that he's still capable of being his old self) to him slumming in the after-effects. Two would have been fine.

This is where it becomes completely subjective. Whilst I know that the writers did not want to have shots of him in the house on his own, crouched in the shower whilst music played, but I just think the choices to show Jesse's state of mind were bad ones.

QuoteBut the car wash scenes have served as vectors for character development - to show how Skyler is adapting to life as a criminal; to show how Walt is learning to take advice from her seriously; and all the glorious stuff with them rehearsing their stories and being unable to deal with the surprising levels of adulation directed by Hank and Junior.

I think the purchasing of the car wash is important - for one it shows Walt becoming more like Gus with the setting up of a credible front for his illegal money making, and it importantly ties Skylar into a criminal life that is more complicit than just turning a blind eye. It shows that she is necessary for the smooth running of Walt's criminal life, for which he is way out of his depth. When Walt eventually has to lead, it will be Skylar who facilitates it. I just don't think the actual amount of time given over to this is necessary, that's all.

QuoteAgain, I don't think you're seeing the wood for the trees. The scene wasn't about Gus killing that guy, it was about the reactions he provoked from Jesse and Walt.

You're getting a bit "well, if you don't like it, you don't get it" there sir. I disagree with you anyway. The most important reaction was Mike, not Walt or Jesse. In any case, yes the reactions were important. Gus killing the kid was important. The way it was written, acted, staged and filmed was irritatingly broad and over-dramatic in a way that evoked 24 - yes, in a bad way.

QuoteNote how Jesse doesn't break eye contact with Gus until he's stepped behind him; that's the point where Gus marked him as being truly dangerous for the operation unless steered into the fold and away from Walt.

Yep, got that.

QuoteI agree that this season has been too slow, but I think you're being far too quick to write it off, and in doing so you're missing out on the true purpose of a lot of the scenes you criticise.

I haven't written it off at all. In fact, I have stated that I will persevere with it, and I hold out hope that it will improve. I would like to think I understand perfectly well most of true purposes of the scenes (although one scene I really liked, Gale's karaoke, I actually mis-read until DCT posted about it on this thread), I just don't agree with the writing, pacing and narrative choices made this season. It's still the best thing currently on TV, evidenced by the fact that I bother to watch it and comment on it.

Tiny Poster

Quote from: Johnny Townmouse on August 18, 2011, 10:35:38 AM
The way it was written, acted, staged and filmed was irritatingly broad and over-dramatic in a way that evoked 24 - yes, in a bad way.

According to the Insider Podcast, it was meant to be extremely bloody (which hints at Gus' South American past), and they only had a few takes to get it in. On one, the blood spattered up unto Gus' face, so they kept it in -  which led to the glasses-wiping moment

Funcrusher

Although I enjoy BB, and some of its high points are some of the most memorable in any series I've seen, it's not without its flaws. It has tended to be quite plot driven, to some extent at the expense of the characters, who have to behave in ways that suit the latest turn in the plot. It has delivered plenty of shocks and surprises, but as a result  the believable reality of Walt, Jesse and co's ordinary lives has been somewhat undermined. Walt has watched Jesse's girlfriend choke to death, resulting in a plane crash killing who knows how many, but that's almost forgotten as we head towards the next plotline. This is a problem when the series now wants to focus back on Walt's domestic life and family, particularly in a world that now contains supervillain type characters like Gus and Mike. The series could have done with exploring some other plot avenues and other supporting characters rather than just scary drug biz bad guys.

Walt taking over Gus's business just sounds daft, so I hope that won't happen. Skylar turning into some Lady Macbeth type is just a drag. It was arguably a mistake to have her act so totally negatively initially on finding out the truth- it would have been more interesting, and possibly more believable if she had been more conflicted. She would surely at least havebeen able to see why Walt, facing terminal illness could have acted as he did.

Last weeks ep had some moments that were much more vintaqe BB - Gael's crazy video, Jesse not going for Mike's head games - which were unexpected or didn't go where you thought they would. But the latest one just feels a bit predictable again. I don't mind the pace being slow, but there's not enough content in terms of character or plot.

Johnny Townmouse

Episode 6 - Cornered - spoilers ahoy...

This felt like a very well constructed episode and I really enjoyed the laid-back tone and reflective quality of the writing. Walt's outburst to Skylar was well timed and although she is entirely correct that he is scared, I do like the way that Walt is becoming more dictatorial and puffed-up as he realises his power within such a huge, profit-making company. It his talent and skill that has got him there, and because of that I would like to see more of a counter-point with the company he used to be involved in, and the couple that perhaps did not value him, and for whom he is emotionally invested. For me that is where a lot of Walt's irrationality comes from.

I could have done without the scenes with the son, but I suppose it is necessary in order to show how reckless Walt is becoming, and how it puts the family at risk, and in general I thought Skylar's lines were well written, and even the over-egged visual symbolism of her 'choices' (but ultimate need to be with her family) did not bother me. I guess that at some point Walt is going to have to choose between the safety of his domestic life in his family, or to go for it as a drug lord. I think he will choose the latter, though it needs to be developed and executed believably.

The only issue I really had was with the hiring of the laundry women to clean walt's meth kitchen. I just don't buy that Walt would have been that stupid - essentially he was sticking a target on their heads. It's pretty obvious that they will be left in a ditch in the desert. I knew that straight away, so why didn't Walt? A charater error in an otherwise enjoyable episode. Next week will be over half way, and I still feel like they are spending way too long building towards a season climax that will usher in a pretty explosive final season. I just would have liked them to bed down in the current season a bit more.

pk1yen

^^ Pretty much agree with all that.

One of the best moments of the episode for me was Walt's casual line of: "Presidente Grant, very important man ..." while urging the cleaning ladies to take his $50 bills.
Had me in hysterics, just the way he delivered it.


EDIT:  Also, I just remembered the really quite nice, weird shot from the camera on the end of Jesse's spade.

Johnny Townmouse

That's the thing pk, I thought it was really well acted and written, and I really enjoyed seeing Walt interact with the laundry women. But it was such a death sentence to even show them the basement.

There have been quite a few odd POV shots or cameras strapped to objects. I like it.

pk1yen

It was one of the many, many moments this series where I'm just wishing Walt would realise how much money he's making for what seems to be fairly little work, and stop being a dick about it. Same with the Skylar stuff.

Every episode seems to have at least one occasion where Walt does something stupid to lash out at his bosses for not showing him 'nuff respec' ... and it's getting a bit silly, because he's not supposed to be a stupid man (though I know what the writers are aiming for, with his vindictive power search taking over).

The show would be a lot more exciting if he'd think things through a bit more.

To me it always seems everyone but Walt is being fairly reasonable most of the time.

spraticus

I think Walt's change of character is entirely within keeping (if that's possible) - he's getting careless and self-grandiose which I guess would happen when you are making stacks of cash in a fear-fueled environment & totally out of touch with normal life.

Loved the camera on the end of the spade, too.

The series has finally picked up in the last couple of episodes and, for me, it's started to rediscover that underlying menace that always made it uncomfortable but riveting viewing

Old Nehamkin

Quote from: pk1yen on August 22, 2011, 02:51:21 PM
Every episode seems to have at least one occasion where Walt does something stupid to lash out at his bosses for not showing him 'nuff respec' ... and it's getting a bit silly, because he's not supposed to be a stupid man (though I know what the writers are aiming for, with his vindictive power search taking over).

Wasn't there some sort of implication in the last season about Walt's cancer possibly spreading to his brain? Or am I completely mis-remembering that?

dr_christian_troy

The 'Walt IS the danger' implication I thought initially was going to be him in a 'no bullshit, take everyone down' role, but now I have a feeling it is that he is a danger to those around him in the wrecklessness of his actions.

The overt emphasis of the security cameras, being seen, in plain sight, etc is becoming more and more apparent. The Eye (seen earlier in the season when Skylar went into Walt's apartment) I'm now realising may be an impending indication of what is to come: maybe all this time there is enough evidence to identify Walt as Heisenberg since the beginning, it really is just a case of Hank seeing the footage of Walt in Pollos, then working backwards.

Johnny Townmouse

Yeah, I really, really hope that we get a plot development that harks back to certain decisions made many episodes, or even seasons, before. I thought it was interesting that they chose not to show Mike feeding back to Gus about Jesse's actions at the meth-house - it may have been for the sake of economy, but I hold out a lot of hope that we are not being shown everything.

The scenes showing Walt being filmed must surely be as insurance for Gus, rather than to merely observe him. This is good, because really the main showdown will NOT be between Walt and Gus (and his cartel enemies) but between Walt and Hank. It's the money shot isn't it? Hank's face when he realises that Walt is Heisenberg? I really hope that they ramp up Hank's desire to get Heisenberg - and I imagine they will, probably with tragic consequences. That would be the best way to get Hank after Heisenberg's blood.

I do wish there was some of the flair or earlier seasons - scenes like the twins as children, or Walt working with his ex-partner/business partner in the University, allusions to a future disaster, the mariarchi video. I don't know, on the one hand this season is giving a lot of character-led plot, and then on the other it feels like it does so very slowly and without it being framed within some of that quirky edge that made me fall in love with the show in the first place. I know I bang on about that too much in this thread, but I do feel that the last couple of episodes have show a steep increase in quality so I feel my faith is somewhat restored.

dr_christian_troy

#145
Quote from: Johnny Townmouse on August 22, 2011, 04:36:27 PM
The scenes showing Walt being filmed must surely be as insurance for Gus, rather than to merely observe him. This is good, because really the main showdown will NOT be between Walt and Gus (and his cartel enemies) but between Walt and Hank. It's the money shot isn't it? Hank's face when he realises that Walt is Heisenberg? I really hope that they ramp up Hank's desire to get Heisenberg - and I imagine they will, probably with tragic consequences. That would be the best way to get Hank after Heisenberg's blood.

God yes, I didn't even think about that side to it - what if Gus later flees, disappears or is killed, in the knowledge that the reams of footage of Walt in the lab will fall into the hands of the police under pre-planned instructions, framing him for everything? That would be explosive. The camera was installed following Gus' murder of Victor. If they are in control of the footage, any evidence of the cleaners or Tyrus being down there could be erased. Yep, I have a very strong feeling that those cameras - cameras in general - will definitely have an involvement in Walt's downfall.

...It also just occured to me, this may explain why they are keeping Jesse out of the lab. They have other plans for him. The ultimate irony could be that Walt, constantly desperate for credit for his 'genius', will get just that, only when the ab footage gets to Hank and/or the police. Except, since the cameras have been installed, although he is severely implicated, he has barely worked - instead, he has been trying to frustrate his observers, and so the one chance he had to appear for the true 'genius' he is will be lost amidst footage of him shouting at the camera and looking foolish.

Amazing episode.

I don't think they have any plans for Jesse - while Mike was clearly impressed by his plan with the spade from the reaction shot in the car, he still had to come in and save his life at the end of it, so Gus's "I heard you can handle yourself" and "I like to think I see things in people" are obvious ploys to toy with him and his loyalty to Walt.

Johnny Townmouse

Quote from: dr_christian_troy on August 22, 2011, 05:02:08 PM
God yes, I didn't even think about that side to it - what if Gus later flees, disappears or is killed, in the knowledge that the reams of footage of Walt in the lab will fall into the hands of the police under pre-planned instructions, framing him for everything? That would be explosive. The camera was installed following Gus' murder of Victor. If they are in control of the footage, any evidence of the cleaners or Tyrus being down there could be erased. Yep, I have a very strong feeling that those cameras - cameras in general - will definitely have an involvement in Walt's downfall.

It's going to be great to see how this can be used against Walt. Of course, if there is tons of footage it either has to be used to expose Walt, or he may find a way to destroy it. Either way, if Walt thinks he's in the clear after offing Gus and his cronies, there are plenty of factors that could see him exposed.

Quote from: The Region Legion on August 22, 2011, 06:31:14 PM
I don't think they have any plans for Jesse - while Mike was clearly impressed by his plan with the spade from the reaction shot in the car, he still had to come in and save his life at the end of it, so Gus's "I heard you can handle yourself" and "I like to think I see things in people" are obvious ploys to toy with him and his loyalty to Walt.

Yeah, I had been assuming that the recent stuff with Jesse was being done as a way to snap him out of his depressive reverie which was making him risky to Gus, and to keep Walt happy by not offing him. But yes, getting Jesse on-side will be a great way to control Walt.

Mildly Diverting

Quote from: Johnny Townmouse on August 22, 2011, 07:53:52 PM
Yeah, I had been assuming that the recent stuff with Jesse was being done as a way to snap him out of his depressive reverie which was making him risky to Gus, and to keep Walt happy by not offing him. But yes, getting Jesse on-side will be a great way to control Walt.

Yeah, that's a very plausible explanation. I haven't seen the earlier seasons in a while, so forgive a possible false memory - wasn't Jesse getting as good as Walt at the old cooking malarkey? Is Jesse going to be Walt's replacement? But that doesn't make a lot of sense with making him deal with the thieves and meth-heads. Oh, I don't bloody know, but its getting much better after a slow start.

kitsofan34

Carrying on with the point Johnny Townmouse made, sometime (in series 5 probably) Hank and Walt are going to have one of those one to one conversations in the desert. It's obvious that scene is going to be f'ing amazing. Does everyone think Walt is capable of killing Hank? On a moral basis, not physical.