Complete tossers on ebay

[23 Daves]

Anyone who has used ebay has come across them - people who try to sell stuff in a frankly unusable condition and pretend that it's either "excellent" or "very good".  This is particularly true of people who sell vinyl records, who frankly push the definitions of "Excellent" and "Very Good" beyond the realms of the acceptable.  One seller sent me a "Very Good Plus!" Beatles record in an ordinary envelope padded out with the cardboard packaging ripped from a multi-pack of tins of Whiskas, without any other sleeve at all.  The thing was more-or-less unplayable, the music almost rendered inaudible behind the surface noise.  That chap agreed to refund me in full.  "Forget about sending the record back", he said.  Which was just as well, because the record was no good to anyone, not even a charity shop.

My present bugbear-of-the-week, however, has sold me a sixties garage single which again, is rendered almost inaudible in places due to the scratches and surface noise. He, on the other hand, is not playing ball.  Here's the message I sent him this evening:

Hi,

Sorry to have to bring this up, but the scratches on this record mean that at certain points - in particular during the first thirty seconds or so - the surface noise is louder than the music itself. Is there any chance you would accept a return on this item?

Nice and polite, I thought.  Here is his reply from America:

HI,I CAN ISSUE A REFUND FOR ITEM.IT WILL MAKE NO SENSE TO RETURN IT AS IT WILL COST FAR MORE TO SHIP IT BACK THAN THE PURCHASE PRICE.I DO NOT REFUND POSTAGE BUT WILL ISSUE YOU CREDIT ON ANOTHER RECORD.LET ME KNOW,THANKS.

Aha.  So I looked at his "store".  He's only selling one record, and it's not one I want.  In terms of a "choice", this is a bit shit to say the least, and I'd still have to pay transatlantic postage for any other item I bought should he list any others.

I'm about to send him a reply stating that if he wants to ship shoddy goods halfway across the world it's his own lookout, and his own cost to bear, but.... does anyone else have any suggestions about where I could take this? 

Just noticed somebody else has left him a negative feedback rating quite recently, to which he has replied "What!  Negative feedback for a dollar record! I undergrade!" as if, y'know, paying that little for something means you shouldn't be surprised when it's completely unusable (and presumably he'd have happily taken more money if the bids went higher than that).  How should I take on this half-boiled, half-baked, caps-lock superglued, hi-falutin' cretin of a huckster?  I'd love to say he's one of a kind, but sadly he's not. 

"I undergrade" indeed. 

[kitsofan34]

Didn't you check out his delightful customer service on the feedback page before buying?

[23 Daves]

Didn't you check out his delightful customer service on the feedback page before buying?

I did, it didn't seem that terrible - that's the issue, a lot of people don't seem to give sellers negative feedback because some behind-the-scenes negotiations go on.  Generally speaking if somebody agrees to refund me after a struggle I won't bother to rate them positively or negatively, because the issue has been resolved.

There are some absolutely cracking responses to negative feedback on ebay, though.  Here's my favourite:

"Item defective - seller very rude and aggressive"

To which the seller's reply was:

"YOU SON OF A B!"

Obviously I've avoided that person like the plague ever since seeing that. 

[I accept the terms of the]

I don't leave negative feedback because it seems to be tit-for-tat. If I leave a negative comment, I'm likely to have my profile blighted with bad feedback in return (and whereas it might be a 1/10000 change in their positive:negative ratio for them, it's more like a 1/60 change for me). Actually, I don't leave feedback at all until they've done it first, these days.

Edit: I see I am living in the past and that eBay no longer lets sellers leave negative feedback for buyers.

[23 Daves]

Edit: I see I am living in the past and that eBay no longer lets sellers leave negative feedback for buyers.

I noticed that a couple of days ago!  That seems to have changed quite recently.  Not entirely fair, but I can completely understand why they've done it - the most a buyer can do is not pay you (something I'm also on the receiving end of myself at the moment, although for some reason I don't find that half as annoying as idiots selling me shit goods and expecting me to like them).  When this happens, you open a dispute up with ebay and they get a severe warning and the threat of having their account suspended.

We haven't really had an accurate portrait of the quality of the sellers in years, on the other hand.  People have avoided conflict for fear that they'll get a negative rating back.

Actually, I'd like to see really long threads on seller's profiles about why their items were shit, because as it stands they always get the last word, which is normally "I can't believe you'd say this! I am shocked! My item was PRISTINE!!!"  I'd like to see the full story.

[Beep Cleep Chimney]

I've been buying some vinyl on eBay of late.
Fortunately everything I've bought so far has turned up in the condition it was described in the listing.

However, one bell-end (UK seller) tried his luck with the postage issue, resulting in some back and forth with messages, and him eventually climbing down.

I was bidding on (and won) a double-LP of Leftfield''s 'Rhythm & Stealth' album.  He had listed the postage as £3.50.

I paid for the item, but then received a message in my inbox from the seller, saying that he'd be posting the album as soon as I paid the extra £1.50 "for the second disc", and that it should be paid directly into a different PayPal account of his.

I e-mailed back expressing my confusion, and stating that I'd paid the total amount of the winning bid, which included the £3.50 total postage, so wouldn't be paying any more, and that I didn't understand what this extra £1.50 was all about.  Explained that if it's a double album, the £3.50 covers the lot.  (Asked him to clarify if he was talking about some mystery THIRD record that wasn't mentioned in the listing).

He e-mailed back again saying that he couldn't understand why I thought there WOULDN'T be an extra postage fee, as there was "another disc" to post.

I e-mailed back again, basically saying that he was taking the piss and that there's no way anybody would pay additional money for the 2nd disc of a double-LP. Stated that I had no intention of paying anything else, that the £3.50 covered the entire item, and that I'd contact eBay if he didn't send it.

Got a reply from him begrudgingly agreeing to post the item the following day.  Arrived late (about 2 weeks after winning it) but it didn't have any traces of spit, bogies, shit or anthrax on it so I was happy. 

He didn't leave me feedback and, when I had look at his, there were other people on there complaining about their own dealings with him, so it seems I wasn't alone.  Cunt.

[23 Daves]

He didn't leave me feedback and, when I had look at his, there were other people on there complaining about their own dealings with him, so it seems I wasn't alone.  Cunt.

There are loads of dodgy vinyl sellers on ebay, and I refuse to believe that they don't know what they're doing - you know damn well if an item is unplayable.  A lot of them seem to have cropped up on there over the last couple of years, and it's almost as if they've spotted the present trend for long-players and decided to clear out the attic, not showing much regard for honest gradings in the process.  I'm trying to thoroughly check their feedback ratings now, and it does have a massive bearing on whether I'll bid or not. 

My dilemma is - if I do send this item back to the idiot, it's going to cost me quite a bit of postage yet again if he fails to refund me at all. 

[Toad in the Hole]

As a seller I'm probably not going to bother again.  I've just tried to sell a car through eBay, having weighed up the pros and cons of various options.  I listed a generous start price and a competitive buy it now.  Some cunt clicked the buy it now and has yet to contact me.  To cancel you have to wait four days, then open a case, which needs you to wait another week if the "buyer" doesn't respond.  It's cost me half a month's insurance, a shitload of time, and the ballache of listing somewhere else.  The individual seller gets screwed.  As we noted a while ago on the boards, it's totally skewed towards small business sellers now, where one transaction doesn't make too much odds.  There's little consideration for the usergroup the site was designed for-- individual private sellers.

[Small Man Big Horse]

I noticed that a couple of days ago!  That seems to have changed quite recently.

It's been a while now, well over a year and possibly two. As someone who sells on ebay every so often it's quite annoying, as sometimes you get left really unfair negative feedback, like someone complaining about the condition when you've specifically stated exactly what it's like, or even trying to blackmail you in to giving them a discount or they'll leave negative feedback (though to be honest that's only happened the once).

I blocked a guy a while back as he was really rude in the messages he sent me, complaining about the condition of the box when I'd stated it wasn't in that good a condition but the game played perfectly (I always take extra care to be completely honest about such things so as to avoid conflicts with others) and afterwards he kept on sending me messages along the lines of: WHY HAVE YOU BLOCKED ME WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO ME THIS IS SO UNFAIR YOU ARE RUINING MY LIFE DO YOU GET OFF ON UPSETTING OTHERS YOU ARE MAKING ME MISERABLE YOU ARE CRUEL AND EVIL AND A MONSTER!!!!!!! Which didn't persuade me to lift his ban, somewhat shockingly.

[Famous Mortimer]

There's little consideration for the usergroup the site was designed for-- individual private sellers.

I remember using eBay when it didn't even have a British site, way back when (ah, that set of Oingo Boingo playing cards), so it's certainly improved a bit since then...but I wish I could filter out people with more than, say, a thousand things for sale and just deal with folks who want to sell their bits and bobs round the house.

[23 Daves]

Grrr, he's still at it.  Here's the reply I sent:

Hi, please could you reconsider this? A test play of the record before listing the item would have revealed that it's heavily scratched, and could not really be described as being in VG condition. Under these circumstances - which are rare - I would normally expect the seller to meet the costs of the postage.

You only have one item for sale in your store at the moment and there's no guarantee you will be selling anything else I'd want in the near future - plus the postage costs from US - UK on your sales would mean that I'd usually be able to find most items cheaper domestically.

Please let me know what you think.

Here's his reply, ignoring my main points:

HI DAVE,LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO DO.I HAVE 1000'S OF 45'S AVAILABLE.I DO NOT HAVE A STORE BUT AM LISTING DAILY.YOU WILL BE QUITE SURPRISED WHAT I HAVE FOR SALE.I WILL MAKE IT RIGHT.THANKS,GARY.

But I've let him know what I'd like to do!  I've also worked out that he made a few dollars on the overseas postage as well, unless he paid for a very expensive box.  The man is a cunt.

In the meantime, still awaiting payment on a winning bid after seven days from somebody from Austria who has made no attempt to get in touch.  The fun don't stop. 

[Famous Mortimer]

I'd say just give him an ultimatum. Apologise for the harshness, but say unless you've got a refund by day X you'll be starting the dispute procedure. Has he admitted in any email that the record wasn't the quality promised? Keep that.

I remember doing this with a DVD box set that turned out to be just 6 copied discs, not in a box - the argument from the seller was "well, the discs are the same". It took a while but I got my money back. Oh, and some guy who I gave negative feedback to over some crappy t-shirt he sold then spent much more than the cost of the t-shirt on something I was selling purely to give me negative feedback. Dumbass!

[BlodwynPig]

i think I posted on another thread about my experience in Discogs with the album not being available AFTER purchase and some polite tit for tat until the seller stopped responding (he had offered other goods to the value I paid). in the end I wrote a message stating "THIEF", as i was no longer able to leave negative feedback. To my surprise, a few weeks later the goods arrived! i was a bit shamefaced for calling him thief, but he did take 6 months to deliver ;)

Another guy told me that the product was out of stock and cancelled the order. I was constantly reminded to leave feedback, so I left Neutral feedback due to a) he advertised falsely but b) did explain and remove the order. The torrent of abuse I got about this was unbelievable.

i have just noticed your neutral feedback.
it is utterly pathetic and i really could care less.
how very "cosmic" of you
you are now blocked from purchasing from all my accounts.
have a nice day

and when i explained

WE don't care.

I know the reason behind it, you're a gobshite.

[Viero_Berlotti]

I've managed a platinum power seller eBay account as part of my job for the past 6 years and I could bore you to death with many tales of eBay numpties, buyers and sellers alike.

My advice to 23 Daves though is to start an official dispute against this seller if he has sold you an item that is not as described. Everything is weighted towards the buyer on eBay nowadays, so you'll more than likely win it. The only sticking point might be that he's based in the USA where European distance selling regulations probably don't apply but eBay are unlikely to take that into consideration anyway.

[Blue Jam]

Daves, can you not open a Significantly Not As Described (SNAD) case? eBay invariably end these in the buyer's favour- as others have said they hate small private sellers these days and let buyers hold them to ransom. As someone who is more of a seller than a buyer I can confirm that Viero is right.

Toad- I feel for you here, I gather selling cars on eBay often isn't worth the pain. I mainly sell records and if someone doesn't pay I'm only out of pocket by a few pounds, but for cars the eBay Final Value Fees can be significant and judging by the message boards there are a lot of people having to claim back fees that run into the hundreds. Another problem with cars is people selling a similar model and bidding ridiculous amounts on their rival sellers' autions to ensure their car is the cheaper one and they won't lose out if a buyer is watching two or more auctions for similar cars, as they often are. Back on the subject of records, it gets even pettier than that- I've heard of sellers bidding on rivals' auctions just so they can leave enough negative feedback to get their account suspended.

I've never had any problems as a buyer but selling is a pain in the arse and has been since the feedback system became one-sided. I recently had "arakira2008" leave me three negatives and trash my DSRs because his records arrived late and damaged- in the comments he called me (in French) a dishonest buyer, claiming I'd overcharged him for postage because he hadn't noticed the combined shipping discount on the invoice (a lot of people don't, and it amazes me how many people don't bother checking). He'd noted the actual cost on the postage labels but not the posting date, and claimed that his records arrived late because of my "slow shipping"- it was news to me that I control the French postal service. Most ridiculously, he claimed they arrived damaged because I must have posted them in a postbox- yes, a 13.5" mailer would fit in the slot, I'm sure, and once again he didn't consider those postage labels clearly purchased at a post office... I sent him an apology and an offer of a refund along with a request to remove the feedback- no reply from him, just an automated reply from ebay telling me he'd refused, and then an email from eBay saying that as my DSRs had been trashed my account was at risk of being suspended... thanks a bunch.

It's annoying to see how many buyers don't bother working things out with the sellers, and baffling to see how many people would prefer taking their anger out on the seller's feedback to the offer of cold hard cash in the form of a refund. My unhappy buyer refused a refund and essentially paid £12 to leave that feedback- that's no consolation and it's just frustrating to see how some buyers are just impossible to please.

After dealing with that buyer in France I just stopped selling to anywhere outside the UK- postage costs are the main thing EU buyers complain about and leave low DSRs but if I reduced them any more I'd be making a loss. For UK buyers I could use second class post but then my Dispatch Time DSR would be hit (buyers also seem to confuse time of dispatch with the time the postal service take to deliver things, which doesn't help). My other main problems are people asking to cancel bids at the last minute, and bidders blocked for having too many Unpaid Item Strikes asking me to let them bid, then sending me unsolicited advice telling me I'd make more money if I agreed to deal with serial non-paying timewasters like themselves...

I could tell you more about my eBay selling experience but we'd be here all day.

[Lee Van Cleef]

It's annoying to see how many buyers don't bother working things out with the sellers, and baffling to see how many people would prefer taking their anger out on the seller's feedback to the offer of cold hard cash in the form of a refund. My unhappy buyer refused a refund and essentially paid £12 to leave that feedback- that's no consolation and it's just frustrating to see how some buyers are just impossible to please.

After dealing with that buyer in France I just stopped selling to anywhere outside the UK- postage costs are the main thing EU buyers complain about and leave low DSRs but if I reduced them any more I'd be making a loss. For UK buyers I could use second class post but then my Dispatch Time DSR would be hit (buyers also seem to confuse time of dispatch with the time the postal service take to deliver things, which doesn't help). My other main problems are people asking to cancel bids at the last minute, and bidders blocked for having too many Unpaid Item Strikes asking me to let them bid, then sending me unsolicited advice telling me I'd make more money if I agreed to deal with serial non-paying timewasters like themselves...

I could tell you more about my eBay selling experience but we'd be here all day.

There is no incentive for buyers to work anything out.  As has been mentioned in this thread the whole system is slanted heavily towards buyers with no recourse given to sellers that get screwed.  I mean you can send something to someone and they could receive it but claim it never arrived and will just get their money back from ebay/paypal with no questions asked.

I'm not going to be shipping to Italy or Russia in the future.  Italy's postal system is awful and anything going to Russia takes forever.  It's just not worth the headaches.

[Viero_Berlotti]

To be fair to eBay though, the system did need changing as dishonest sellers were endemic on eBay 5 years ago, and buyer confidence in eBay was at an all time low.

However it took them getting sued by Louis Vuitton for $60 million to really shock them into action. Since this lawsuit they have been on a cull to rid eBay of the fake merch sellers and the scammers, and it has worked, although unfortunately some of the changes that have been made are to the detriment of the individual sellers. Buyers seem to have confidence in shopping on eBay again, and we are turning over more than double on eBay than we were 5 years ago.

[Sony Walkman Prophecies]

My main issue on ebay seems to solely derive from dodgy asian men who sell electronic goods. They always seem to behave quite well, right upto the point where there's a problem with the postage or the item itself, in which case they start lying like a DDS claiment-anything to prevent a return or partial refund. The most annoying thing is the fact that their english is often so rubbish you know its barely worth the effort. Often far eaiser just to take it up with paypal themselves.

[Lee Van Cleef]

One of the things that cheeses me off is the maximum P&P on things like CDs.  Applying a blanket £1.25 P&P limit is nonsense.  I can understand that some sellers were being stupid by listing items dirt cheap by charging ridiculous P&P, but frankly if you see someone is going to charge you £8 for P&P and you still buy it, isn't that rather your own fault?

[katzenjammer]

I only read the title, how about this?

http://bit.ly/pjvQjr

_{(It's amazing the old tat people try to flog on ebay)}

[I accept the terms of the]

One of the things that cheeses me off is the maximum P&P on things like CDs.  Applying a blanket £1.25 P&P limit is nonsense.  I can understand that some sellers were being stupid by listing items dirt cheap by charging ridiculous P&P, but frankly if you see someone is going to charge you £8 for P&P and you still buy it, isn't that rather your own fault?

Yeah, precisely. All this has done is marginalise the non-bulk sellers even more.

[Viero_Berlotti]

I think the reason they put a maximum charge on postage was because some sellers were ripping people off with it. For example by charging £1 for an item and then £8 postage, if the item was faulty or not as described and the buyer returned it they would only offer a £1 refund for the 'value' of the item, claiming they didn't have to refund the postage because they item had been delivered and that part of the service had been fulfilled. So these sellers were transferring part of the value of the item onto the postage and in doing so were trying to circumvent their obligations to the buyer in terms of refunds.

if you see someone is going to charge you £8 for P&P and you still buy it, isn't that rather your own fault?

Yes, you could say that, but the reason eBay stopped it was because it was bad for their image and it looked as if they were complicit in it as they were letting it happen on their website.

[Famous Mortimer]

To be fair to eBay though, the system did need changing as dishonest sellers were endemic on eBay 5 years ago, and buyer confidence in eBay was at an all time low.

Completely agree. eBay was truly awful for a while.

[I accept the terms of the]

I tried to sell a laptop about three years ago, only to have it bought by stolen accounts who wanted me to send it to China before I had received payment. FIVE FUCKING TIMES. That was fun.

[23 Daves]

Where this man is concerned, the issue is more with the cost of postage than the cost of the item itself - I was billed $8 for shipment (of which he seems to have actually paid only about $4.60 according to the stamp).  He's not actually obliged to refund postage, is he?  Therefore opening up a dispute with ebay might not pay any dividends and just leave me with more return postage fees for the bastard thing, unless anyone knows any better. 

[Famous Mortimer]

Isn't it postage and packing? He'll just say the box it came in cost X dollars.

[23 Daves]

Isn't it postage and packing? He'll just say the box it came in cost X dollars.

Exactly!  Although it's a standard one and there's absolutely no way it would have cost that much.  I do feel a bit of a mug as I should have realised he's obviously trying to get rid of shite and hiking up the postage so he still makes money even if he refunds the disc itself. 

[Viero_Berlotti]

The fact that you've bought from what sounds like a private seller, in the USA, using an auction format means you've probably not got much in the way of consumer rights here. However, that said eBay are big on protecting the buyer, so things will be marginally in your favour.

From my experience if you did start a dispute with him through eBay what would happen is that PayPal/eBay would freeze the total amount including p+p in his PayPal account. Then you would put your case across. He would then get an email stating your case and he will be able to do one of two things, offer a refund or state his side of the story. If he did the later eBay would then decide who was in the right, and you would probably get a full refund including p+p, so he is not likely to do this. I'm not sure entirely on this,  but if he chooses to refund then he may get the option to just offer a partial refund. In which case, as you say, he will probably refund minus the p+p, but if the funds have been frozen, he might have no other option but to refund the full lot. It's been such a long time since I've dealt with one of these it's hard to remember, plus I'm selling buy-it-now format listings to largely UK/EU customer so I have to abide by the distance selling regulations which mean a full refund including p+p must be given if the item is returned within 7 days of receipt.

[stephenjwz]

I used to sell vinyl on ebay, generally was great, occasionally had a dispute with a buyer over whether something was vg+ or excellent- and had to grudgingly refund. In the end they cared more than I did about the item, so I was willing to trust their call over mine.

I hardly use it nowadays, not due to any great issues, but when I do I try and treat it like it's Amazon or something, send despatch notifications, raise disputes, generally do anything that involves an official eBay email going to the other party rather than try and communicate with them - takes all emotion and pissiness out of transactions.

[Icehaven]

I bought a poster for 3 or 4 quid (inc. postage) a few years ago, and when it stll hadn't arrived three weeks later, had a brief email exchange with the seller (and his were also all capitals, I'm noticing a theme here...) in which he assured me it had been sent yet also promising to send another (?!?!). More weeks, no poster, more emails, so I gave him negative feedback and opened a dispute. He then sent an email begging me to change my feedback and yet again promising the item was in the post, so I said I'd change the feedback when I got the poster, and it mysteriously arrived two days later. I was fairly inexperienced with ebay then, but now with hindsight I know I obviously shouldn't have changed it, as he was obviously taking the piss, selling small things for very small amounts and hoping people wrote it off as bad luck when it didn't arrive. I doubt I'd ever spend more than a few pounds on ebay in one go, seeing as how you just don't know who you're buying from/wether it's going to turn up etc. I'm amazed people buy things like laptops or cars, they must be very trusting!