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Unnecessary & Troubling Kafkaesque Experiences (starting with the Apple store)

Started by 23 Daves, November 01, 2011, 08:00:49 PM

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23 Daves

Perhaps I'm becoming a moaning old git, but it does seem to me as if society is steadily getting more and more disorganised rather than becoming the swift, efficient fantasy land described in many editions of Tomorrow's World whilst I was growing up.  Problems are increasingly lost in ever-more complex mazes, queries unanswered, customer services more time-consuming and confusing than ever.

My main example stems from yesterday, when I paid the Apple Store on Regents Street a quick visit (or, at least, what I hoped would be a quick visit).  My iPod was in need of some TLC, so I thought I could nip in on the way home and see what my options were.  Here's how my visit ran:

1. I report to the information desk on the ground floor. They send me upstairs to another desk - the promisingly titled "Genius Desk".
2. At the Genius desk, I am told that I need to book an appointment on their computer system first before anyone will speak to me. I do this on one of their Macs, based on a small table behind me. Logically enough, I decide to make my appointment for five minutes time, all the time wondering why another human being couldn't have spotted the gap and spoken to me then anyway.
3. Back at the Genius desk again, I am then told that I am not in the right place for my particular problem. I am sent to see "the man with a beard by the glass lift".
4. There is a long queue to see the man with the beard.  Perhaps he genuinely is the guru I seek.  But no!  At the front of it, he tells me to go and wait for another member of staff by another desk.
5. This I do. After ten minutes, somebody calls out my name, asks me what my problem is (again) and tells me that they can't help, but somebody will soon drop by who can. 
6. Eventually somebody materialises, tells me they don't have the right parts in stock, and asks me to come back later in the week when they will.
7. 45 minutes later, I feel severely robbed of time, if pleased by the relatively low repair cost they've agreed.
8. And why was I trying to obtain repairs in the Apple store in the first place? Because my iPod is welded shut in such a way that only they can replace the fucking rechargeable battery (although actually, I think my model is the unit they have to completely replace).

It's not the end of the world, I'll grant you.  It seems quite funny to me now in retrospect, but still - why have such ludicrous measures in place?  Why waste so much money on staff time and alienate so many potential customers (I never want to set foot in their store again after this)?

EDF Energy are another bunch of Behind the Iron Curtain styled bastards I'd love to waffle on about, but that story is very boring in comparison.  Suffice to say I came home this evening to find a cheque from them for the total of £40.  I've no bloody idea what the fuck that's about since there was no letter accompanying it, but as that's the cost of my iPod repair I'm going to assume that it's some kind of mad cosmic gift for now.

Anyone got any others to add?

Winjer

Nothing to add but, curiously, I googled Regents Street because I thought you'd accidentally appended an 's' onto it. Clicking on the google maps result directly flags the Apple store only.

If you google 'regent street', though, it comes up with various flags up and down that street.

Is Regents Street a little side street where the Apple shop is?

boki


Tokyo Sexwhale

Quote8. And why was I trying to obtain repairs in the Apple store in the first place? Because my iPod is welded shut in such a way that only they can replace the fucking rechargeable battery (although actually, I think my model is the unit they have to completely replace).

If it's an ipod classic - you can buy a battery replacement kit which includes an ipod opener.  I used a company called ipodjuice a couple of years ago, but a quick google search reveals lots of companies that offer a kit.

I just nipped into Lloyds Bank at lunchtime to pay some cheques in.  I was the only customer in the queue, and when the next window became available, I walked up to the counter, only to be asked to wait whilst she started some admin task and I returned to the queue.

Unfortunately, the only other window was occupied with a customer with some seemingly involved and complex issue, so I waited 5-6 minutes (in my lunch hour) for the original cashier to become available.  At no point did any other customer join the queue.

So rather grumpily I handed over the paying-in book and cheques, and then she had the fucking temerity to ask me who my mortgage was with!

The Roofdog

I can't be bothered going through the all the stories[nb]One for every time I've moved, which is quite a few times in the last decade due to going to university, leaving university, renting for a bit, buying for a bit[/nb] and putting myself through it all over again but BT. Fucking BT. I'd like to think there's a brand new circle of hell reserved for these cunts.

23 Daves

Quote from: Tokyo Sexwhale on November 02, 2011, 02:01:36 PM
If it's an ipod classic - you can buy a battery replacement kit which includes an ipod opener.  I used a company called ipodjuice a couple of years ago, but a quick google search reveals lots of companies that offer a kit.

It is an ipod classic, but I've already been here, unfortunately - I bought a kit for £5, but my iPod is entirely made of metal, there's no acrylic or plastic front cover.  I think you'd need a tin opener to actually get in to the bloody thing.  I tried getting into it for an hour, broke the tools doing so, then completely gave up. 

shiftwork2

Quote from: The Roofdog on November 02, 2011, 02:31:00 PM
BT

At the very end of a long and painful online sign-up process they told me that the earliest date for a switch on was two weeks after I moved in, so, in five weeks time.  Five weeks to do what exactly...sit around the office laughing at me?  I get my revenge each day by refusing to use the abbreviation and call them British Telecom.  They can't take that away from me, I still have that goddammit.

BlodwynPig

On a lighter note I received a bar of Lindt Chocolate through the post courtesy of Carphone Warehouse the other day. Just a bar of chocolate and the name of CW printed on the inside of the cardboard envelope - nothing else. I have never shopped with or used Carphone Warehouse. How did this happen???

Famous Mortimer

TalkTalk.

They said, after constant complaints, I could cancel my subscription. I did, and they sent me a letter saying I owed them for early cancellation of my contract. If I wanted to complain, email address provided. The email address sent me back a response saying "this email account is now invalid for complaints, please write HERE". I did, and it was sent back as unopened. By this time they'd already sold my debt to some collection fuckers, and they kept insisting I log onto my TalkTalk account to give them details, even though I told them over and over again that since cancelling my account, my login didn't work any more.

Still, I got my mate who's a solicitor to draft me a super-good letter threatening them with all sorts of shit if they thought they were going to take me to court, and they've shut up since. But still, fuck TalkTalk.


Famous Mortimer


katzenjammer

It's a cliche but just phone menu systems in general.  I'm sure nobody can remember all the options at all the various levels.  And when I phone the bank I have to enter my 16 digit card number, not so easy on a mobile when I'm walking down the street or driving, then my pass code before I can speak to someone who then asks for my card number all over again.  Why?

Neville Chamberlain

Quote from: katzenjammer on November 02, 2011, 03:06:28 PM
And when I phone the bank I have to enter my 16 digit card number, not so easy on a mobile when I'm...driving

Yes, the whole business of driving and trying not to cause a dreadful accident just gets in the way, doesn't it!!

katzenjammer

I should probably explain that by 'not so easy' I mean, impossible since I'd be using my handsfree kit.... officer.

Goldentony

This whole culture of looking like a bellend behind a transparent desk with a big poncy computer and labelling yourself a genius just because you've managed to make it to a huge neon white shithole long enough to feign interest in someones autotune app needs to end and it needs to end violently with some sort of sexual intrusion.  Normally these people will have a lanyard, making them incredibly easy to spot.

In short - I am ordering you to go back to that shop and wank that guy off in the window for everyone to see.

Ignatius_S

Quote from: 23 Daves on November 02, 2011, 02:34:03 PM
It is an ipod classic, but I've already been here, unfortunately - I bought a kit for £5, but my iPod is entirely made of metal, there's no acrylic or plastic front cover.  I think you'd need a tin opener to actually get in to the bloody thing.  I tried getting into it for an hour, broke the tools doing so, then completely gave up.

IIRC, those ones have two fastenings – one involves pressure tabs that need to be pressed to one side.

How you checked the guides at http://www.ifixit.com/Browse/iPod ?

Quote from: Goldentony on November 02, 2011, 03:38:58 PM
...In short - I am ordering you to go back to that shop and wank that guy off in the window for everyone to see.

And not use the webcam features of any of the computers in store?

23 Daves

Quote from: Goldentony on November 02, 2011, 03:38:58 PM
This whole culture of looking like a bellend behind a transparent desk with a big poncy computer and labelling yourself a genius just because you've managed to make it to a huge neon white shithole long enough to feign interest in someones autotune app needs to end and it needs to end violently with some sort of sexual intrusion.  Normally these people will have a lanyard, making them incredibly easy to spot.

In short - I am ordering you to go back to that shop and wank that guy off in the window for everyone to see.

But my visit involved more than one man, plus one lady!  What are you suggesting here?  That I wank them all off at once?  That would surely be utter pandamonium.  I'm after solutions here, not more problems.  Who do you think I am?  Dr Octowank? 

Quote from: Ignatius_S on November 02, 2011, 04:08:26 PM
IIRC, those ones have two fastenings – one involves pressure tabs that need to be pressed to one side.

How you checked the guides at http://www.ifixit.com/Browse/iPod ?

I did, and so did my wife, and we still could not get the fucking thing open.  To be honest, if Apple actually outright replace my iPod after four years of use for the princely sum of £40, I'd probably rather do that than replace the battery and then have the hard drive conk out a few months later.  I stand to do quite well out of this if their decision falls the right way.

Anyway, I've thought of another shower of charlatans - Thames Water.  Last year, our neighbours moved out and instead of cancelling their direct debit, they cancelled ours, then never bothered to rectify the mistake.  We didn't get a letter telling us we were off their database, and it took both my wife and I a long time to notice that our bank account was no longer being emptied on a quarterly basis by them. Stupidly, we phoned them up to inform them of their error, which is where the arguments started - they told us it was our fault that we hadn't noticed they'd cancelled the direct debit, and asked for a huge stack of money from us "immediately" (threatening us with bailiffs into the bargain). 

We ended up having arguments with them for months on end.  The Thames Water official assigned to our case became so used to hearing us on the other end of the phoned that he let out deep sighs every time we called up.  After about ten months of rowing and a variety of tersely worded legal letters from us, they finally agreed to write off the debt completely.  I had every intention of paying the owed total back slowly over the course of a few years, but they pissed my wife off so much that she wasn't having any of it and decided to prolong the argument for as long as possible.  In our area we don't even get a choice of water providers, so we're still stuck with them as well. 

Blue Jam

Quote from: The Roofdog on November 02, 2011, 02:31:00 PM
I can't be bothered going through the all the stories[nb]One for every time I've moved, which is quite a few times in the last decade due to going to university, leaving university, renting for a bit, buying for a bit[/nb] and putting myself through it all over again but BT. Fucking BT. I'd like to think there's a brand new circle of hell reserved for these cunts.

I was so relieved to move to my new flat and finally hear the magic words "you live in a cable broadband area". After 11 years I could finally tell BT to fuck off- but even that took three phonecalls and one fuck-up on their part and it all just made me even more glad to be rid of them. At my old flat it was most frustrating to walk past a big billboard every day and see it advertising Virgin Media in an area which had no fucking cable.

Virgin Media have been great so far, apart from sending me regular junk mail letters adressed "Dear new occupant" and advising me that I now live in a cable broadband area and asking me if I'd like to sign up with Virgin Media- I've only been here three weeks but I've had two so far and there was a pile of them on the doormat when I moved in. I really hope that's the only fuck-up they'll make.

thenoise

Old story, but Lambeth Council can fuck off - I took them proof of my student status to their nasty offices (had to queue up behind poor people and everything) and they fucking lost it and kept sending me court letters.  By the time I wasted my time taking them another one, they said that it was now in the hands of a debt collection agency so I had to prove my innocence to some other bunch of cunts.  Bailiffs came around, told them to fuck off etc.  Long long period of stress during a time I was preparing for exams and living on fuck all.
Oh, and their council tax is collected by Capita, fucking shitty outsourcing company that I've had the misfortune of dealing with several times before, that somehow manage to blag their way into hundreds of government contracts.

BlodwynPig

Just had one now, my own fault.

I'm moving back downstairs to my old flat in Feb and the girl who owns it has the same BT package as me - 2 years contract. We are both midway through that and I wanted to check if I could wrangle some deal to avoid the inevitable default payments (her, most likely as she will be in Saudi and I can move my contract over to her flat)....blethering.

Anyway, I probably knew the BT customer services would be shut, but I rang anyway - touch button menus, really? A huge telecommunications giant is still using touch button menus!? And getting charged 5p a minute for the privilege calling from a BT landline (I suspect as a penalty for not using their automated internet help). Then after about 10 menus, I get the inevitable "our offices are open from..." message.

Pathetic. More pathetic than me attempting it in the first place.

olliebean

Powergen (since subsumed into e.on) who, when I switched my gas account to them, took an estimated instead of an actual reading for the changeover and then overcharged me by a million cubic feet on the grounds that, since their estimated reading had been on the high side and the next actual reading was lower, the meter must have clocked itself in the meantime. Then strung me along for over a year before admitting they were obviously wrong.

Also, Santander, whose complaints department never gave me any more helpful response than "We have passed your complaint on to the relevant department" - without ever revealing, even when questioned directly on the subject, which department that supposedly was. Needless to say, I never heard back from the relevant department. (My complaint was about how, rather than pay me a series of back payments in one combined payment, they split them up into several smaller combined payments in non-chronological order, which happened to be precisely the arrangement of payments that maximised the number of administrative fees they were able to deduct - thus netting them nearly £50 more in fees than I felt they were reasonably entitled to.)

23 Daves

Quote from: olliebean on November 03, 2011, 12:13:54 AM

Also, Santander, whose complaints department never gave me any more helpful response than "We have passed your complaint on to the relevant department" - without ever revealing, even when questioned directly on the subject, which department that supposedly was. Needless to say, I never heard back from the relevant department. (My complaint was about how, rather than pay me a series of back payments in one combined payment, they split them up into several smaller combined payments in non-chronological order, which happened to be precisely the arrangement of payments that maximised the number of administrative fees they were able to deduct - thus netting them nearly £50 more in fees than I felt they were reasonably entitled to.)

Oh, Santander are utter cunts.  I used to have a bank account with them and when I married, wanted to get my wife's name added on to it - however, they refused on the basis that:

1. My wife is foreign (Canadian) and therefore had no credit rating in this country.
2. She told them where she worked, and they said: "It's not in the Yellow Pages, and therefore under our system so far as we're concerned it doesn't exist".  My wife worked for a carbon emissions trading company in the city, not a local branch of plumbers.  And anyway, you look it up in a copy of the Yellow Pages?  What kind of system is that?!

I closed my account down in the end, and among the first reasons I gave for my departure was the company's lack of willing to let my wife hold a joint account with me (First Direct agreed in the end).  The manager heard my ranting about it without catching all the fine details and sneered: "Oh yeah, and why did we do that I wonder?"

Complete and total wankers through and through. I'm stunned they still have any customers at all. 

katzenjammer

I need to get a new passport because the old one is full.  Easy enough you might think but I went to their website and find out that because I don't live in the UK I have to send off my old passport together with €208 (so I'm expecting a solid gold one back) and wait for up to four weeks to get a new one.  That's all very well apart from the fact that it's illegal to walk around in this country without valid ID, and the only ID I have is my passport, since the government decided to stop providing ID cards for immigrants because it's cheaper not to, despite the fact that everyone who lives here is supposed to have one, but anyway.  Also I have to show my passport every time I use my credit card, and I have a flight booked for two weeks time and then another one at Christmas so I don't have a four week window where I don't need my passport.  WHY!? Why do they need me to send the old one back?  Why can't they just send me a new one?  And why do they need sooo much money to do this trivial little thing?  So I thought I'd phone them to see if there was another, faster way of doing things.  This is what I found at the bottom of the page:

QuoteIf you cannot find the information you need on the website, you can contact the Careline Passport Information Line at 807 444 946 (Premium Rate Line - please note that these calls are charged at €1.18 per minute, mobile phone calls may be charged at higher rates) or             +44 208 082 4734       (Credit Card Line - calls will be charged at £0.72 per minute plus VAT)

A premium rate phone number.  The greedy, grasping little fuckers.  There's no alternative but to call this number and get ripped off in the process.  A quick google reveals that it's a private company, Careline, that's running this 'service', and getting rich by people being forced to phone it.

At least with a private company you always have the option to vote with your feet, but when it comes to dealing with government departments you just have to eat every flavour of shit they serve up to you in order to get what they tell you you need.

BlodwynPig

^ FUCKS

I had similar problem when i lived in the Fatherland. I ended up being told to go and pick the passport up in Dusseldorf 240 miles away. Luckily we were travelling back from Luxembourg on the day we were told to get the passport - BUT, we got to Dusseldorf and it was a bloody religious holiday (not in the north where i was living) meaning the whole city was closed down. We parked the car and had 4 miles to get to the consulate before 12am...hailed a taxi and sat anxiously as crowds of German loons drunkenly blocked our path. We arrived at 11:55 to be told that actually as we had not made a prior appointment there was no one who could help us. Despite having been told to turn up on that day.

Several angry phone calls during that week yielded no results - i demanded they reimburse me for (my imagined) journey from Bremerhaven to Dusseldorf. No go.

i think I paid 140 Euro for the passport too.

Icehaven

Had one just yesterday! We were in Aberystwyth, with pre-booked train tickets for the 7.30pm train to Birmingham, but decided we'd like to try and get an earlier train. We went to the station, expecting to be told there'd be some kind of fee, only to be asked ''did you buy these on the internet?' Yes we had. ''Oh you can't do it over the counter then, you can only change them on the internet, and even if we could do it here there'd be a £10 fee per ticket.'' (spoken with the clear intention of putting us off) OK, so far so stupid. So we went to the local library, got on to Arriva's website where I'd bought the tickets from, and after navigating through what seemed like 20 pages concerning my booking, finally found the amend/refund ticket option, only to find you have to...call a premium rate number! ''Bookings can only be altered by ringing this number, and all amended tickets will be subject to a £10 admin fee'' Surely the bloody woman in the station could have told us this and given us the phone number. It's impossible to know if she was badly trained, just fucking useless or Arriva are so un-joined up that they simply can't conceive of making it possible to do things more than one way. And this is before you even consider that you don't actually 'amend' you booking at all, you basically cancel your tickets, buy new ones at full price, and are refunded for the original tickets minus the admin fee, which was actually more than they cost in the first place. We worked out it'd be cheaper to sit in the pub for a few hours and get the 7.30 train, so my resultant hangover is entirely Arriva's fault.

Icehaven

And I'm sure I've moaned on here before about the time I was in a busy supermarket, they put a call out for all till trained staff etc., and the woman who ended up serving me was so un-till trained she took my card, swiped it through a few times while muttering and hitting random till buttons, then haughtily informed me I had no money in my bank account as there was a big 0 on her till screen. I don't know who was more surpised, me or the manager I asked her to get. I was angry at the time as she was so rude, but I can imagine she had probably just had one training session ages before, then had never had to use them so had completely forgotten how but didn't want to admit it, which is fair enough, I've used similar ones myself and they're not always that simple to use. 

Blinder Data

I had a moment when ringing Vodafone to talk about changing my contract. I couldn't remember my four digit pin code so was forced to identify myself through security questions with a call centre type.

I'm not called by my first name, but still use it for official stuff like banks and customer accounts, and was unsure under which name I'd registered with Vodafone.

"Hi there Mr Data, could you tell me the name of the account holder?"
"Okay, well, I think I'm registered as Blindy Data, though I'm not too sure as I have two names, you see..."
"Sorry, sir, that's not what I have here."
"Oh, all right, is it Anthony? 'Cause that's my sort of official first name while I'm called Blinder by friends and family."
"Actually that's not the name, sir, and as you've revealed yourself not to be the account holder I cannot proceed with this phonecall."
"Wait, no, I am Anthony Blinder Data, this is my account, I want to talk about my contract."
"Sorry, sir, but legally I cannot proceed as you've revealed yourself..."
"But, it's me! Ask me anything, date of birth, address, I can give you those details!"
"Sorry, sir, but you haven't given me the right name so I'm obliged to..."
"For fuck's sake!"

It's when people in these positions think like an automaton, blindly follow the guidelines rather than use common sense - that really gets on my tits. Some of them seem to revel in their position of "Well, I'm afraid there's nothing I can do"; they believe they're helpless to help you.

katzenjammer

It's bizarre, isn't it?  The whole point of them being there is to supposedly help and provide services to customers and yet a lot of them seem to just be obstructive and obtuse.

And then after annoying the hell out of you, costing you time and money, raising your blood pressure but achieving nothing they almost always finish with 'is there anything else I can help you with today sir/madam?'

Icehaven

Quote from: katzenjammer on November 05, 2011, 01:35:44 PM
It's bizarre, isn't it?  The whole point of them being there is to supposedly help and provide services to customers and yet a lot of them seem to just be obstructive and obtuse.

And then after annoying the hell out of you, costing you time and money, raising your blood pressure but achieving nothing they almost always finish with 'is there anything else I can help you with today sir/madam?'

Having worked in two call centres, (insurance and digital TV), and having an other half working in one now, while I wouldn't defend deliberately twattish behaviour, many call centres are run along the lines of setting staff targets of answering a certain number of calls per hour, in order to keep queue times down and get call numbers up, so you're often pushed to keep calls as short as possible to get as many as possible in, seemingly at the expense of actually being helpful. Financial incentives are given to those who answer the most calls, and league tables are often used as a way of quantifying (or embarassing/bigging up) for all to see who's supposedly crap and who's supposedly good at their jobs  So you end up either using any excuse to end calls as soon as you've answered them, like your Vodaphone friend up there, or actually trying to help and getting ticked off by managers for not answering enough calls. Even in quieter times, every second of unavailable time (i.e. time your phone isn't ready to take a call) is measured and recorded, including time spent actually on calls, toilet breaks, visits to the photocopier etc. It's a stupid situation, and one I'd have thought had been sacked off completely in the 8 years since I worked in one, but obviously not. My bf is regularly 'advised' by his supervisor that he spends too long on calls, even though there's no way he could do what the customer is asking him to do if he didn't, it's quite ridiculous. And topically Kafkaesque really.

But yes, it's alos true that most call centre workers don't care about the job or your problems, aren't being paid very much and probably won't even work there by the time you call back to complain about them. And then there's the general culture of assuming that most customers are stupid, rude, just plain wrong about everything and need to be treated with officious contempt masked by obviously enforced politeness, so you've also got that to overcome before you even get to 'hello.'

23 Daves

Quote from: icehaven on November 05, 2011, 05:22:46 PM

But yes, it's alos true that most call centre workers don't care about the job or your problems, aren't being paid very much and probably won't even work there by the time you call back to complain about them. And then there's the general culture of assuming that most customers are stupid, rude, just plain wrong about everything and need to be treated with officious contempt masked by obviously enforced politeness, so you've also got that to overcome before you even get to 'hello.'

I used to work in the calling centre of a bank, and whilst most of my colleagues were lovely to me, they did have a very negative view of the world outside.  The problem is that if you're taking 100+ phone calls a day - which was our expected tally - you are going to deal with some very vague and very stupid people, and that may colour your view of the entire human race eventually.  I must admit the whole thing was a fantastic learning experience for me, even though I obviously didn't enjoy the job that much (or at all, actually). To get through a day with the least amount of bother, you basically had to not take any grievances customers have about the company personally (an obvious thing many people struggle with) and also sound empathetic and concerned (and even surprised or shocked) even when you couldn't really give a shit. Simple tricks, but they make the day fly by with the least amount of personal abuse.  Anything else, and you're just going to make your shift as miserable as possible, so I'm always stunned at the volume of Mr and Mrs Monotones there are out there who must get endless shit slung at them on a daily basis.   

Also, a lot of the workers there were terribly unsympathetic to people with enormous debts.  "Huh, well if he/she spends money they don't have, what do they expect?  Hopefully they'll learn something from this rather than getting stressed and shouting next time".  It really came through in their tone, and if I was having financial difficulties that would be the last attitude I'd want to encounter.