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Lars Von Trier

Started by anonymous_lurker, February 02, 2012, 03:46:42 PM

Previous topic - Next topic
Had a quick forum search but couldn't see anything specifically Lars, so here goes..

I'm not much of a film buff but I do appreciate the occasional flick, usually if they fall into the subcategory of the weird and disturbing. For e.g, some of my favourites are Jacob's Ladder, and about half of David Lynch's output. I discovered LVT via The Idiots and I found it suitably weird and entertaining enough to fulfill the few needs I have. Now my question is, where to go next?  Baring in mind I'm a consummate cheap-skate, I'm currently eyeing up the Kingdom boxset, or maybe the E-Trilogy boxset but both of these are pretty expensive for my economically challenged tastes. Amazon also has Breaking the Waves and Dogville for hardly anything, but I dunno, Kingdom interests me more.

So yeah, discuss LVT. And that way if I don't like what I buy then I have somebody else to blame.

Ignatius_S

I'm sure that some will recommend Dancer In The Dark, but I think that's simply dreadful, albeit quite funny at the end - however, I didn't enjoy The Idiots that much. Although one friend who likes him a lot felt the same about those.

I rather liked Kingdom a lot - personally, I would say go for it, but it's a bit pricey... then again, blame away. Breaking The Waves and Dogville were ones I would have recommended as a matter of course - however, I think I would be inclined to suggest renting and just trawl away...

danyulx

#2
Though he's far from my "favourite filmmaker!" or anything, I nevertheless think he's a very good one indeed and I've seen everything he ever done. So I'll give you my 2p's worth then.

Dogville is his masterpiece, one of the greatest films ever made, as well as one of the most downright cynical and misanthropic so be warned.

Epidemic is his most underrated film; up there with his best. All three films making up 'The Europa Trilogy' are very good but that's my favourite. I can only see it having any appeal whatsoever to the most hardcore and demanding of film fans though. The very paradigm of a film many folk get their knickers in a twist screaming "pretentious!", "self-indulgent!", "I'm bored!" at, etc. If anyone but me and about ten others had actually seen it.

'Antichrist' is his most overrated film. It has its moments but I don't rate it too highly at all.

The Kingdom is one of the greatest TV series ever made. Much better than 'Twin Peaks'

'The Boss of It All' is his shittest film. The sole blemish on an otherwise very interesting filmography.

Everything else: very good. I'm especially fond of Melancholia and The Idiots. Dancer in the Dark - not a great film but a good one - is the only film I've seen since about the age of twelve that made me cry.

If you can't think where to start I'd just work through his whole cannon in chronological order, if I were you, starting from his early shorts onwards. Nothing gives one a better understanding of "the soul of a man" than ploughing through his entire filmography, in chronological order. Or discography or bibliography.

vrailaine

I'd start with the kingdom, was basically everything I wanted from twin peaks.

Only seen dogville, breaking the waves, riget 1&2, melancholia and dancer in the dark. Either looked or loved all of them.

One I really want to check out is the five obstructions, could hate it but it sounds bloody intriguing.

danyulx

Quote from: vrailaine on February 02, 2012, 04:29:25 PM
One I really want to check out is the five obstructions, could hate it but it sounds bloody intriguing.

I forgot about that. It's really good. Well worth a watch. Trier's only "documentary" I suppose..

I'd make sure you watch the short film it's "based on" first though, 'The Perfect Human'. To give you at least some inlking what the fuck's going on.

Talulah, really!

Quote from: danyulx on February 02, 2012, 04:15:36 PM
Dogville is his masterpiece, one of the greatest films ever made,

The CGI was shit though.

Famous Mortimer

Quote from: danyulx on February 02, 2012, 04:35:33 PM
I'd make sure you watch the short film it's "based on" first though, 'The Perfect Human'. To give you at least some inlking what the fuck's going on.
Available in its entirety here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8341864322805018162

El Unicornio, mang

I liked Dancer in the Dark. Other than that, I've only seen The Idiots and Dogville and didn't like either. Not really my cup of tea.

jaydee81

They showed clips of The Five Obstructions in The Story of Film An Odyssey, and I've been contemplating buying it on DVD ever since. Anyone think it's worth watching?

holyzombiejesus

Quote from: danyulx on February 02, 2012, 04:15:36 PM

Epidemic is his most underrated film; up there with his best. All three films making up 'The Europa Trilogy' are very good but that's my favourite. I can only see it having any appeal whatsoever to the most hardcore and demanding of film fans though. The very paradigm of a film many folk get their knickers in a twist screaming "pretentious!", "self-indulgent!", "I'm bored!" at, etc. If anyone but me and about ten others had actually seen it.


Even as someone who really likes LVT, I found The Elements Of Crime to be almost unwatchable. Just looked it up on wikipedia and was amazed to find out that it is only 103 minutes long; I could have sworn that it was at least twice that. From what I remember, it's filmed in a horrible murky sepia and stars fucking Boon. It was like watching a hangover. (I didn't find it pretentious though. Generally, only stupid people use the word pretentious as a slur.)

The Roofdog

Kingdom question: I had the original R2 DVD release (no idea where it's disappeared to, probably lent to someone and never returned or lost in a house move) but that was only the 1st series right? The cover didn't make it very clear. It ended with
Spoiler alert
the lady Doctor giving birth
[close]
, is that the end of S1 or S2?

vrailaine

That's the end of season one.


There was supposed to be a third season to wrap things up believe he had the scripts written up and all, but key cast members died.

holyzombiejesus

Wikipedia says (yeah, I know) that he gave the scripts to Stephen King for that Kingdom Hospital abomination but no-one knows if they were used or not.

What are people's thoughts on Manderlay? I've got it at home but haven't watched it for some reason. I guess I just imagine it to be a retread of (the brilliant) Dogville, so haven't bothered. Is there still going to be a third part (Wasington?) or has that gone the way of the 3rd series of Riget and the Antichrist computer game?

danyulx

Quote from: holyzombiejesus on February 03, 2012, 01:52:41 PM
What are people's thoughts on Manderlay? I've got it at home but haven't watched it for some reason.

It's not as good as 'Dogville' - but what is - but it's very good. Go watch. Von Trier takes "on the race issue" and doesn't pussyfoot about one bit..

A crying shame about 'Wasington' not getting made. There's still time. I seem to recall him hinting in an interview not long ago that there's still a possibility..

The only thing I haven't got around to of his yet is 'Dimension'. The feature film he was supposed to be making over the course of thirty years but gave up and released the unfinished 27-minute thing a year or so back, what a cop out.

Anyone seen it? Any good?

QuoteDimension is a short film written and directed by Lars von Trier, released in 2010. The film was shot in three-minute segments over several years. The original intention was to continue production for a period of 30 years for a final release in 2024. However, von Trier lost interest in the project and it was shelved in the late 1990s. The short film consists of the completed footage at the time the film was abandoned.

Oh I ain't seen 'Medea' yet either. The TV film he made in 1988 based on some Greek myth or other.

Noodle Lizard

Although I knew of him for about five years beforehand, I think the first one I saw was Antichrist in the cinema.  Then Breaking The Waves, then The Idiots, then Europa, Dancer In The Dark, then Melancholia.  Need to check out some of his other stuff.  I'm quite looking forward to Dogville, when I have a quarter of a day to spare.

danyulx

'Dogville' is the shortest 3-hour film I've ever seen. It only feels about eighty minutes.. I had such a whale of a time.

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: danyulx on February 03, 2012, 03:16:35 PM
'Dogville' is the shortest 3-hour film I've ever seen. It only feels about eighty minutes.. I had such a whale of a time.

No.  Once Upon A Time In America is the shortest "long" film (about 4 hours).  I could watch it twice in a row, easily.

Hank_Kingsley

Was Dogville really that long?!

Fuck me, the time flew by.

I've still not seen whatever the sequel was though.

Favourite for me would be a toss up between The Idiots and Europa, first ones of his I saw and I was impressed by i) how funny The Idiots was and ii) how gorgeous and atmospheric Europa was.

I haven't kept up to date with him, I really didn't like Dancer in the dark and felt a bit perplexed at the generally rapturous reception it got. Will have to see Melancholia though, as I love the apocalypse/ Kirsten Dunst.


Interesting that Kafka and Europa came out in the same year, for some reason the two seem almost interchangeable in my mind.

El Unicornio, mang

Quote from: danyulx on February 03, 2012, 03:16:35 PM
'Dogville' is the shortest 3-hour film I've ever seen. It only feels about eighty minutes.. I had such a whale of a time.

It felt like the longest 7-hour film I'd ever seen when I watched it.

*runs away*

Dark Sky

I loved Dancer in the Dark when I first saw it.  Then every time I've watched it since makes me regard it as being more and more ludicrous.  I can't believe it has such an incredibly ridiculous plot, even though the whole thing is so naturalistic and documentary-like.  It's so bizarre.

The song and dance sequences are wonderful, though.

danyulx

I'm always ready to be proven wrong but, me, I have almost no doubt in my mind the melodramatic ludicrousness of "the plot" - and other aspects - of 'Dancer in the Dark' is fully intentional. Lars Von Trier a very smart man. He knew exactly what he was doing. The film is a pisstake. And a very good pisstake.

I've never felt so cynically, emotionally raped by any filmmaker watching any film as I did the last ten minutes or so of that one. A complete bastard at work. It was even more of an ordeal for me than the rape scene in 'Irreversible' or The Climax of 'Salo, The 120 Days of Sodom'. Which is saying something.

My love of Bjork probably had a lot to do with it; and knowing he pretty much drove her to insanity during filming didn't help. I couldn't hack it. I broke down crying and did not stop. It was fucking horrible.

El Unicornio, mang

The ending is indeed very traumatic. I like the film for the stark contrasts. If it had all been the bleak as fuck stuff, I couldn't have liked it I don't think, but the way it shifts from the very dull, grey, documentary-style realism to the brightly coloured magical musical scenes is unique and wonderful. If Dogville had used a similar technique, say it shifted from the stage (her reality) to actual on location footage (her fantasy, possibly) I might have liked it more. As it was it felt like 3 hours of dark grim with no shading. Possibly if I watched it again I might get something new from it, I dunno.

Quote from: danyulx on February 02, 2012, 04:15:36 PM
Dogville is his masterpiece, one of the greatest films ever made, as well as one of the most downright cynical and misanthropic so be warned.

That's me sold then.

Cheers everybody for the suggestions. Plumped for the Kingdom boxset with Dogville as appetiser.

QuoteThe Kingdom is one of the greatest TV series ever made. Much better than 'Twin Peaks'

QuoteI'd start with the kingdom, was basically everything I wanted from twin peaks.

Well I consider Twin Peaks to be pretty much the perfect TV series (contrived series 2 whimsy aside) so hopefully I won't find myself making comparisons between the two when I do get round to watching it. I don't want to be too disappointed if it doesn't match up.[nb]Unless it is in fact much better than Twin Peaks, in which case I'll be a very happy anonymous_lurker.[/nb]

chris87

What do people think of the ending to Breaking the Waves?
Spoiler alert
I thought it was a scar on an otherwise great film. Up until then it looked  like Trier was really forcing the audience to contemplate the possible futility of goodness and the uncaring (malevolent?) nature of the world. In that context the ending not only looks out of place but completely counterpruductive.
[close]

danyulx

#24
I really like 'Breaking the Waves' - the filmmaking leap from 'Europa' to that is one of the ballsiest leaps of filmmaking by any filmmaker I can think of. This is not a man to rest on his laurels, like most. And I wholeheartedly agree with your criticism about the ending too. That said, like I was half-arsed postulating about 'Dancer in the Dark', I think this sort of thing in a Von Trier film is wholly intentional on his part, as opposed to him just being shit. There's clearly a part of him that  despises his audience and wants to wind them up (the talking deer or whatever it was in 'Antichrist' being another classic example: ridiculous. See also: his 'Kingdom' "cameos"). It's the most bloody stupid ending to any film ever. I doubt there's one person who's seen this film who thinks this is a good ending, even the most hardcore fundamental of Christian nutjobs. And for that reason alone "it works", in the most perverse way possible. It made me laugh anyway. I couldn't believe  it.

I was watching an interview with him once where he was asked about the ending of this film and it was plain he was on the verge of cracking up laughing. I can't  remember how he explained it away though.. He was supposedly going through a "Catholic rebirth" or something during the making of this film. I trust not one word he says.

What a complete bastard. I love him.

danyulx

#25
Quote from: El Unicornio, mang on February 03, 2012, 08:46:18 PM
It felt like the longest 7-hour film I'd ever seen when I watched it.

*runs away*

No need to leg it.

I have no problem whatsoever with you disagreeing with anything I have say about the films I love - however strongly and in my opinion wrongly, which you usually do - as you actually seem to have seen quite a fair few of them, at least. Therefore your opinion is just as valid as mine. Though your dismissal of 'Ratcatcher' as "fucking awful" or something a week or two ago was a step too far I can't accept. I won't have it.

Meanwhile, it's these sods who have only seen David Fincher films and nothing else - who start giving it loads - who need a smack.

Has anyone here ever met a single "film student" who knows anything about film - anything worthwhile? I've met loads and I haven't. Even the lecturers haven't got a clue. And I should know, I'm "in correspondence" with three at the moment for reasons I wish I wasn't.

Everything Werner Herzog had to say about filmmaking in the book 'Herzog on Herzog' is as good as it gets. To sum up: go and walk around the globe on foot, sleeping in abandoned barns at night, for five years solid and then - and only then - you're ready to make your first film. And also: only ever use any money to fund your films that you have either robbed from banks or have earned by working as a door man on sex clubs or on a cattle ranch.

El Unicornio, mang

Quote from: danyulx on February 04, 2012, 06:43:34 AM
en quite a fair few of them, at least. Therefore your opinion is just as valid as mine. Though your dismissal of 'Ratcatcher' as "fucking awful" or something a week or two ago was a step too far I can't accept. I won't have it.



Not wanting to derail the thread, but I didn't think Ratcatcher was a bad film, it was well directed and well acted and all that, I just really didn't get anything from watching it. Same with Von Trier, I think he's an interesting director and I like that he's always trying new things, but the two films I've seen of his (other than Dancer in the Dark) have left me cold.

Dark Sky

Quote from: danyulx on February 03, 2012, 11:00:59 PMI'm always ready to be proven wrong but, me, I have almost no doubt in my mind the melodramatic ludicrousness of "the plot" - and other aspects - of 'Dancer in the Dark' is fully intentional. Lars Von Trier a very smart man. He knew exactly what he was doing. The film is a pisstake. And a very good pisstake.

I'm not really convinced by that...  A pisstake of what, exactly?  And the thing is, you don't really notice how ridiculous the plot is on your first couple of viewings, because you're so caught up in the realism and the emotion of it.

falafel

In a way it's taking the piss out of the audience; the Dogme tropes are a layer of artifice that, as you say, disguise the flagrant melodrama of the plot. In essence all we have to do to buy into a hackneyed and manipulative plot is to convince ourselves that it is a new experience; which is done here largely through the contrivedly unadorned atmosphere of the piece.

The irony I suppose is that he actually rejuvenates the emotional impact of melodrama for the cynics and skeptics - until you get it and start to feel a bit guilty for falling for it, which if you're lucky won't be until after it has finished.

falafel

I also think the reason he can let such terrible things happen to his protagonists is because he thinks they are pathetic. The last scene of Breaking the Waves felt to me less a vindication and more a sarcastic parting shot, such a grating breach of realism it could only be an insult.