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March 28, 2024, 02:36:12 PM

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God damn it, zombie films!

Started by alan nagsworth, March 05, 2012, 11:47:35 AM

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Brundle-Fly

Pontypool is a really interesting take but I think if it came out ten years ago*, it would be regarded as a classic. The whole genre has now reached saturation point.


*See Dead Set too.

alan nagsworth

Quote from: Dark Sky on March 06, 2012, 11:27:40 PM
Nagsworth criticises the scenes with zombies in...and I agree!  As I said, I wish it didn't show any of them on camera at all!

I will agree with this. Definitely a part of the film that tried to step outside the confines of the budget and didn't pay off at all. It could have been handled much better like, for example, having someone go up to check the front doors and instead of teasing us right to the very limit of almost seeing the zombies storm the building, just have the sound of the door being battered to a close-up of the person looking imminently scared. I felt like the director forgot about his own less-is-more strategy here and should have opted for as little as possible on the zombie front.

QuotePlus I shall be blasphemous and suggest that the "deeper meaning" in the Romero films is very overhyped.  Obviously it's there to some degree, but really, how satirical is Dawn of the Dead beyond "the zombies walk about the shopping mall just like us capitalist humans do oooh!"?  How much does Night deal with racism beyond "the black guy gets shot at the end"?

I might be wrong as I'm not a total horror afficionado but isn't it mainly because a lot of other horror films of that time never really broached the deliberate and obvious satirical boundaries that Romero did? Perhaps at the time it was a lot more striking.

Quoteat the very least you have to admit that it tried.

I still think that film is original and unique.  Sure, there's no visual horror, which is a main draw in zombie films.  But it's an original, intelligent film, and even if you didn't think it was successful, surely it must get credit for trying something new.  Personally, I absolutely adore it, and hate the idea people who haven't seen it might read this thread and decide not to check it out for themselves.  Which is the only reason I'm bothering to defend it, really.

Again, you're right there. I wouldn't hesitate to at least recommend it to a zombie fan who hadn't seen it yet, purely based on the fact that it's an original concept. As I said in the OP, it's not an injustice to the genre at all, it just seems poorly-executed which is a shame because the concept of it is just as interesting as a virus spreading through blood in other films.

Zombies don't have to be all about the biting, really. Zombie films are scary because of man's own struggle in understanding death: grieving and the afterlife are two things humans find extremely difficult to fathom or cope with, and these films portray a world in which man is face to face with death in his own immediate, recognisable form which is something that the viewer's subconscious mind also finds difficult to comprehend, hence why zombie films are almost always indescribably creepy. There is no time to grieve and the afterlife is walking around outside your house, trying to eat you. Pontypool deals with that issue just as much as any other zombie film might, just not quite as convincingly as I had hoped.

Famous Mortimer

QuotePlus I shall be blasphemous and suggest that the "deeper meaning" in the Romero films is very overhyped.  Obviously it's there to some degree, but really, how satirical is Dawn of the Dead beyond "the zombies walk about the shopping mall just like us capitalist humans do oooh!"?  How much does Night deal with racism beyond "the black guy gets shot at the end"?
For what it's worth, Romero always claimed that hiring the main actor was done because he was the best actor, not because he was a black guy. It's been an age since I saw it, but the fact his race isn't really mentioned at all was a political statement back in 1968. And the ending, of course.

Not sure how much more satire you'd want in Dawn, as what you described is fairly central. And the rest of the film is really, really good too.

alan nagsworth

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on March 07, 2012, 09:36:14 AM
For what it's worth, Romero always claimed that hiring the main actor was done because he was the best actor, not because he was a black guy.

Ha, this really tickled me. I just picture Romero unnecessarily digging himself a big hole around a really small thing.

'Sure he gets menaced by a horde of braindead freaks, but it's not because he's black or owt! He just looked like he could really handle himself in a situation like that. Oh god, wait! No! I don't mean because of the persecution he's suffered, god no! Lord knows he's had to deal with enough of that in his personal life. I mean, I'm not being stereotypical about the life all black people have lived of course! He's just a really good actor!'

Weeks later production was shut down and the birth of zombie cinema was put on hold.

Ignatius_S

Some nice picks, VegaLA.

Quote from: alan nagsworth on March 05, 2012, 02:47:41 PM
Ha, I'm probably wrong about the reviews then, dunno why I remembered it that way....

To be fair, Dead Snow got quite a lot of (positive) coverage and I do remember being surprised seeing much more marketing than I would have expected - and thinking about it, I can see why people might have expected rather more. I saw it early on and had the view that it was probably awful, so was pleasantly surprised... hurrah for low expectations!

Quote from: Dark Sky on March 06, 2012, 11:27:40 PM...Plus I shall be blasphemous and suggest that the "deeper meaning" in the Romero films is very overhyped.  Obviously it's there to some degree, but really, how satirical is Dawn of the Dead beyond "the zombies walk about the shopping mall just like us capitalist humans do oooh!"?  How much does Night deal with racism beyond "the black guy gets shot at the end"?...

Presumably, you're being tongue in cheek - such sentiments are hardly iconoclastic, but run of the mill. However, I think some qualification is necessary to explain how "deeper meaning is" overhyped. The overwhelming opinion that I've become aware of is that people who think the films have some worth, see them as well-made, entertaining, good films - that they also contain elements such as social criticism is something that elevates them to mere popcorn fodder. If such elements aren't to everyone's taste, fine but they have allowed these films to be enjoyed as films, rather than 'horror' films - I've known people, who wouldn't usually watch a zombie film, give them a go and been pleasantly surprised.

You ask how satirical Dawn of the Dead is, well, as Alan Nagsworth says, it's worthwhile considering when these films were made. When Dawn... broke, it was during the rise of the Me-generation, so what might look now as passé, was something that was commenting on a very contemporary concern that people were turning to goods and gadgets for personal fulfilment, weakening society.

It's not just the zombies that Romero is using to reflect this - look at Stephen. (Actually, going further, he uses all the four main characters to critique American capitalist society, as they realise that the goods, which they initially covet, are worthless).  Stephen dismissive of the consumers, says with disdain that the zombies are drawn to the mall because it 'was an important place in their lives. But as the film goes on, he's increasingly materialistic -  he's the one who says they should stay in the mall, he's the one that attacks the bikers (with disastrous consequences) to protect 'his' possessions. This ties in nicely with a dominant theme in all three films - that the real threat to the living isn't from the zombies, but how the living react to their situation.

The satire in Dawn... was hardly subtle and Romero was trying to have a bit of fun, but as FM very rightly says, it's a great film and there's plenty to enjoy.

thugler

Has Romero ever made anything good outside of the usual dead trilogy, martin and the crazies?

People are often saying these days that the zombie thing is overdone, but I can't believe how few zombie films there are really. It's so rich for stories in tons of different situations with different variations on the zombies.

Ignatius_S

Quote from: thugler on March 07, 2012, 09:43:10 PMHas Romero ever made anything good outside of the usual dead trilogy, martin and the crazies?...

Creepshow has rather a lot of fans and Knightriders is often admired. Alex Cox presenting the latter on Moviedrome which is how I came about it.

If you haven't seen it, Two Evil Eyes is a must - largely as it's a double-header with Argento, but I'm a sucker for these kind of things, particularly with the source material is Edgar Allan Poe.

With his other non-zombie films, opinion is (I think it's fair to say) mixed, but they all seem to have something about them. I haven't seen all, but based on what I have, I'd given any worth a watch. Quite a few people don't like The Crazies (good idea, badly executed etc.), so if you do, then I suspect, you might be forgiving of flaws in his other films.

I like Land... and Diary... a lot but I've still got to get round to watching the last Dead film as it's meant to be awful - a friend lent me it months and months ago, and I have a feeling he's not going to be asking for it back.

Spiteface

Quote from: Ignatius_S on March 07, 2012, 10:28:28 PM
I like Land... and Diary... a lot but I've still got to get round to watching the last Dead film as it's meant to be awful - a friend lent me it months and months ago, and I have a feeling he's not going to be asking for it back.

I didn't mind Survival Of the Dead, but it's by far the weakest of the bunch.

Re: Romero's "Social Commentary" in Dawn...  I do like how they find that mall, and think they'll be fine, then the penny drops, that none of it means anything and all they've done ultimately is create their own prison. As you rightly point out in an earlier thread, it's ultimately the humans that fuck it up for themselves. The flesh-eating shambling corpses just happen to be there.

I've seen arguments on another board I frequent these days, about how the "Infected" of 28 Days/Weeks Later are not true Zombies. Maybe not (YMMV, depends how you define "Zombie"), but 28 Days Later is probably more worthy of being a "...Dead" flick than the last two Romero efforts, for the above reason.  The worst threat to the main characters in 28 Days Later is Henry West's "answer to infection". God that film is so depressing, but I really wanna watch it again right now...

Mini

Romero's Dawn Of The Dead is a pretty perfect film if you ask me. "What have we done to ourselves?"

28 Days Later has a brilliant first half - particularly the deserted London, beautiful - but I think it then goes downhill

VegaLA

Quote from: Spiteface on March 07, 2012, 11:01:59 PM

I've seen arguments on another board I frequent these days, about how the "Infected" of 28 Days/Weeks Later are not true Zombies.

Only old men with balding white hair and owns a farm can get confused between Infected and Zombies.

alan nagsworth

Quote from: Mini on March 07, 2012, 11:12:35 PM
28 Days Later has a brilliant first half - particularly the deserted London, beautiful - but I think it then goes downhill

Yeah I am inclined to agree, actually. Ecclestone annoys the piss out of me in that film and that whole thing does get a little bit contrived and loses steam when they find the bolshy military knobheads.

Quote from: Spiteface on March 07, 2012, 11:01:59 PM
I've seen arguments on another board I frequent these days, about how the "Infected" of 28 Days/Weeks Later are not true Zombies. Maybe not (YMMV, depends how you define "Zombie"), but 28 Days Later is probably more worthy of being a "...Dead" flick than the last two Romero efforts, for the above reason.  The worst threat to the main characters in 28 Days Later is Henry West's "answer to infection". God that film is so depressing, but I really wanna watch it again right now...

Of course they're not "true" zombies but to deny that they fit into the same spectrum of horror and carry the same symbolism is wrong, I think. As you yourself, and Ignatius_S and myself have culminatively concluded, the threat and the downfall of humanity is all human-based. Zombies being physically human represent man's fear and lack of understanding of death, and it's almost always the arrogance of man that is his own undoing. This is especially apparent in both Dawn and Day of the Dead, and it is also undeniably apparent in 28 Days Later, increasingly so because the virus is man-made. With that in mind, I'm willing to say that they're zombies.

It interests me that it's the viewers that have formed this vague set of rules that define what a zombie can or can't be, and yet George Romero, whether you like his later work or not, is the godfather of the whole thing and yet remains refreshingly open-minded and willing to let the genre take its own path and expand freely. The zombie purists are ignoring the fact that their lord and master is actually pretty zen about the whole thing and doesn't mind as long as creative minds are having fun. That's one thing you can pretty much never fault him for. He's just so lovely.

VegaLA

Quote from: alan nagsworth on March 08, 2012, 04:41:30 PM

It interests me that it's the viewers that have formed this vague set of rules that define what a zombie can or can't be, and yet George Romero, whether you like his later work or not, is the godfather of the whole thing and yet remains refreshingly open-minded and willing to let the genre take its own path and expand freely. The zombie purists are ignoring the fact that their lord and master is actually pretty zen about the whole thing and doesn't mind as long as creative minds are having fun. That's one thing you can pretty much never fault him for. He's just so lovely.

He does stand by the rule that Zombies cannot run though, and in 'Diary' the characters argue this point. Since those Infected in '28 Days' are going for gold i'd say....

Yeah, I bit, didn't I.

holyzombiejesus

Quote from: Paaaaul on March 05, 2012, 01:38:28 PM
The only excellent zombie products of the last 10 years, in my mind, are the Rec films.


Again, these aren't actually zombies, are they? Don't they turn out to be merely possessed or something? [Rec] 2 was a real disppointment although I'll still try and see the 2 forthcoming sequels/ prequels/ whatever the fuck they are.

Paaaaul

Quote from: holyzombiejesus on March 09, 2012, 10:47:38 AM
Again, these aren't actually zombies, are they?

No they're not. They're
Spoiler alert
actors
[close]
.

alan nagsworth

#44
I have a problem with the [Rec] series in that the first should probably have been left as a stand-alone film. It's a shame to see it turn into a horror franchise where the next is [Rec] Genesis which takes place at a wedding, (which admittedly looks alright from the trailer) and then the fourth film is called [Rec] Apocalypse which will basically just be mayhem in the streets or whatever. Why do you need four films to really hammer down one premise on repeat?

I really hope, as the fourth film title suggests, that the whole thing culminates in some grandiose end-of-the-world story and doesn't just wander off aimlessly into random new scenarios. I want this to actually go somewhere good instead of just introducing the same threat to different people in different places like the Alien or Friday The 13th series.

Johnny Textface

Still a while to go before World War Z is released. Just hope its as good as the novel.

Famous Mortimer

And 28 Weeks Later was boiled piss, even if it did have lovely Rose Byrne in it. It would have been nice if it had been a lot better (obviously).

If you're desperate to see more movies, I didn't realise there was a wikipedia page for them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_movies

I didn't realise "Virgin Among The Living Dead" (one of my favourite incomprehensible Italian horror films) was a zombie movie, then I remembered the original VHS release has scenes inserted years later by the director of "Zombie Lake" to pad out the running time - if you ever get the chance to see it, check out the zombie scenes and how you never see the starlet's face.

VegaLA

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on March 17, 2012, 05:46:13 PM

I didn't realise "Virgin Among The Living Dead" (one of my favourite incomprehensible Italian horror films) was a zombie movie, then I remembered the original VHS release has scenes inserted years later by the director of "Zombie Lake" to pad out the running time - if you ever get the chance to see it, check out the zombie scenes and how you never see the starlet's face.

Yeah, I was confused by that too. I'd seen the Redemption release which is Franco's original cut. Wasn't until years later I saw the inserted dream scene sequence version from an American label. Oh dear.

Well I managed to cop hold of 'The Living Dead at the Manchester Morgue' which i've not seen since the late 80s but thats going to have to wait as I discovered a recent French film by the name of 'Paris By Night of the Living Dead' which could be interesting.

kitsofan34

Quote from: Johnny Textface on March 09, 2012, 01:12:37 PM
Still a while to go before World War Z is released. Just hope its as good as the novel.

Yes yes yes. Not sure how they're going to make it into a film but any fan of the zombie genre should definatly read the book.

Famous Mortimer

I'll give some mild props to

Humans vs. Zombies

which you'd be forgiven for thinking is yet another micro-budget whooops-our-college-was-overrun-by-zombies film, but is actually quite good. The people in it mostly seem able to act, for one, and there's more than four zombies in it (I'd suggest lots of the zombies are students at whatever college they filmed it at).

Apart from a bullshit last five seconds (literally, when you see the bit that looks like the ending, turn it off because the very final final scene will just piss you off) I'd rate it "solidly above average" on my soon to be unveiled filmometer.

VegaLA

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on March 29, 2012, 07:23:46 AM

Apart from a bullshit last five seconds (literally, when you see the bit that looks like the ending, turn it off because the very final final scene will just piss you off) I'd rate it "solidly above average" on my soon to be unveiled filmometer.

You could apply that statement to 'The Undead' too, Australia's Zombie movie from around 2003? I hated those last scenes!

Famous Mortimer

Enthusiastic thumbs up for Juan of the Dead. I did a long review of it (click that globe underneath my name if you're interested), but shorter...it's good, funny, clever, has a lot to say about Cuba and while its occasional homophobia pissed me off, other than that it's a cracker of a film.

biggytitbo

The Living Dead at the Manchester Morgue is a wierd one, a 70s euro horror set in the uk that starts with a naked women running through the traffic in Manchester and ends with zombies in the lake district. Very odd, but atmospheric.

Dead kate moss

Quote from: VegaLA on March 05, 2012, 05:34:26 PM
Avoid at all costs:

Zombie Lake (more Nazi zombies, includes a scene of a zombie crying)

UNDERWATER NAZI ZOMBIES! Who wouldn't feel the need to see that??

kitsofan34

Nice to see World War Z is being filmed without any hitches.......OH SHIT THEY'VE BROUGHT IN LINDELOF!!!!

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/brad-pitt-world-war-z-production-nightmare-336422

Mini

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on June 17, 2012, 08:36:56 AM
Enthusiastic thumbs up for Juan of the Dead. I did a long review of it (click that globe underneath my name if you're interested), but shorter...it's good, funny, clever, has a lot to say about Cuba and while its occasional homophobia pissed me off, other than that it's a cracker of a film.

I also loved (and reviewed http://forgetoday.com/fuse/review-juan-of-the-dead/) Juan of the Dead. A Cuban Shaun of the Dead but not as good, with great characters, a lot of laughs and some good satire.

Small Man Big Horse

Quote from: alan nagsworth on March 09, 2012, 12:52:32 PM
I have a problem with the [Rec] series in that the first should probably have been left as a stand-alone film. It's a shame to see it turn into a horror franchise where the next is [Rec] Genesis which takes place at a wedding, (which admittedly looks alright from the trailer)...

I just watched Genesis tonight and feel a bit disappointed by it. It's not bad by any means, but it takes a fair old while to get going, the mayhem whilst mostly fun isn't that inspired, and it doesn't really other anything new to the genre.
Spoiler alert
The unhappy ending made me rate it slightly more than I was going to previously
[close]
, but even then it's not good enough to deserve a mention in the 1001 Films That Are Worthing Watching thread.

Quote...and then the fourth film is called [Rec] Apocalypse which will basically just be mayhem in the streets or whatever. Why do you need four films to really hammer down one premise on repeat?

I really hope, as the fourth film title suggests, that the whole thing culminates in some grandiose end-of-the-world story and doesn't just wander off aimlessly into random new scenarios. I want this to actually go somewhere good instead of just introducing the same threat to different people in different places like the Alien or Friday The 13th series.

Despite the mixed feelings about the third instalment, I am looking forward to the fourth if they can do zombie horror on an epic scale, and a relentless one at that. And
Spoiler alert
the reporter from the first two movies
[close]
is set to return, which is good news. Apparently Genesis does provide some information which fans of the series might be intrigued by, including how the infection began
Spoiler alert
(though the reason - someone was bitten by a previously thought to be dead dog - was a bit poor)
[close]
but from what I gather not watching the film won't spoil anyone's (potential) enjoyment of the fourth.

Santa's Boyfriend

Quote from: Egyptian Feast on March 05, 2012, 02:02:20 PM
If you're looking for something different, I can't recommend Dellamorte Dellamore (AKA Cemetery Man) highly enough. It's one of the most original and underrated horror films of the last 20 years. The basic plot (Rupert Everett - no seriously, hear me out, he's really good in this - is a caretaker at a cemetery where the dead rise a couple of days after burial) is established in the first couple of minutes and the film goes to some very strange places from there. It's very funny, very gory and endlessly rewatchable, with an ending that is...umm, audacious, to say the least.

EDIT: Gah, beaten to it! Thirded, then.

If you like that film I'd strongly recommend reading Dylan Dog, the Italian comic book series.  (Bonelli comics are a bit different to 2000AD, they're complete 100 page mini books sold on news-stands, coming out monthly.)  Eight or so issues were released in English by Dark Horse, which I think have been collected into a graphic novel, but if you can read practically any European language other than English you'll be able to buy the series.

Dylan Dog is written by Tiziano Sclavi, who also wrote the novel Dellamorte Dellamore, upon which the film is based.  The film looks and feels very much like a Dylan Dog movie, clearly taking a lot of its inspiration from the comics, especially because the look of Dylan Dog is so blatantly based on Rupert Everett.  Dylan Dog books feel very much like a mix between David Lynch and George Romero, with some bizarre humour thrown in, and regularly feature zombies.

I understand that there is an official American Dylan Dog movie, but I also understand it's a pile of crap.

Vitalstatistix

Quote from: Small Man Big Horse on March 06, 2012, 01:28:09 AM
The Revenant - It's not a conventional zombie movie by any means but it's absolutely brilliant and I swear you'd love it Nags. Another poster saw it at a film festival a few years back and raved about it hugely so I had high expectations, but it really delivered. It's not out officially on dvd until April 2nd, but can be found elsewhere online.

I raved about this after catching it at Night of the Dead few years back. I was surprised to see it in Fopp the other day. It's only a fifteen and I'm worried it's been cut severely. The version I saw seemed quite sprawling and pretty violent. I'm definitely going to watch again. Great film.

Noodle Lizard

Despite being a horror fan, zombie films have never done it for me really.  I appreciate a good gorefest like a Lucio Fulci, but I've never found them remotely scary.  The only one which comes close is the thoroughly flawed Wes Craven's The Serpent And The Rainbow, but that film goes so unbelievably tits-up in the third act that the great atmosphere and set-up it started with becomes irrelevant.  Still worth watching just for the first hour or so - or at least up until Bill Pullman starts getting chased by chairs.  More could definitely be done with the voodoo angle.