hardcore gamers strike back, down with bioware!

[RickyGerbail]

wasteland 2 kickstarter has raised close to 700000$ in a couple of days

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2

psychonauts 2 kickstarter has raised more than $1 million.

[MojoJojo]

I think you need to provide a bit more context to start a discussion off. In posh terms this would be called a thesis, in more common terms it would be called "a point". The posh term also sounds like the posh word for poo (singular).

Never played wasteland. Think people are being a bit stupid about psychonauts - it's a great game, but it's great because of it's plot and setting, any sort of sequel is going to be less because it's less unique[nb]yes, I know[/nb].
I guess it's the Tim Schafer connection more than anything else.

Um, but I'm glad lots of people are giving money to them in a slightly dubious fashion. Can't work in a bioware connection though.

[madhair60]

I wish Tim Schafer would fuck off for a bit.  Ditto Notch.

[Thursday]

I'm not quite sure what Bioware have done that's so terrible, I'm sure if I could have the issue summarized I'd agree that they've been dicks, but the spoiled entitled reaction of "hardcore gamers" makes me want to take Bioware's side. Very odd to be in a position where I've more sympathy for the big company than the people.

[RickyGerbail]

hopefully they'll turn the new wasteland game into an fps with the possibility of having gay sex with an alien.

[Still Not George]

I wish Tim Schafer would fuck off for a bit.  Ditto Notch.

In fairness to Notch, most of the reason he's so ubiquitous at the moment is he's the first person lazy-ass journos go to when there's a story vaguely involving the "indie scene" and he hasn't yet learned that "get tae fuck ye parasitical scumbags" is a perfectly acceptable response to quote-scavenging journos of any stripe.

I'm not quite sure what Bioware have done that's so terrible, I'm sure if I could have the issue summarized I'd agree that they've been dicks, but the spoiled entitled reaction of "hardcore gamers" makes me want to take Bioware's side. Very odd to be in a position where I've more sympathy for the big company than the people.

It seems like the really big stinking issue is that (HUGE FUCKING SPOILER)

Spoiler alert

there are only 3 endings to Mass Effect 3, with one slight difference to one based on a variant collated from the final game alone. This is a bit fucking much considering the premise we've been sold all along was that all the decisions we've made on the way will have an effect on the outcome, rather than a MP-based power bar and a single choice in the last 5 minutes. I personally have no real issue with the stylistics of the ending, I'm just pissed off at the structure.

[close]

[Rachel]

Very, very few companies make the sort of RPGs I want to play any more so Brian Fargo's got my $50. Just give me something that's more like Fallout 1 and 2 and sticks the middle finger up at Fallout 3 and I'll love you forever, Brian.

You know Gerbail, you're all right.

[RickyGerbail]

things are looking up now with wasteland 2, age of decadence, the bioshock "sequel" having a 1999 mode and larian studios apparently making a new dragon combat/rpg/flight simulator/strategy game. still so much potential have been ruined during the 00's, so many franchises have been desecrated :(.

[Ignatius_S]

....It seems like the really big stinking issue is that (HUGE FUCKING SPOILER)...

I'd be more inclined that it's because of a number of issues that's been eroding the goodwill towards the brand. Although Bioware say it listens to the 'fans', it either misunderstands or just doesn't care.

For a brand that screams RPG brilliance, Bioware has made some very curious decisions. For example, the ME2 dialogue interfaced was dumbed down – no need to bother reading what the options are, the 'nice' and 'nasty' choices are colour-coded. An even better example is Dragon Age 2 - that's what Bioware thought would nicely build on the success of the first game; cue massive sales the first week, which then rapidly tailed off. I'm sure the game would have been received better if it was a DA branded game but not a sequel – the game mechanics may have not been to everyone's taste, but some did like it a lot. I suppose that it could be argued that Bioware was trying to do something bold, but punters wanted something more like the first game and how many would say that the second game was an improvement? Half the playing time, simplified combat, recycled environments etc.etc.. Someone I know isn't particularly into RPGs, but loved DA; when he played the demo for DA2 and found that the rogue's backstab ability made your character teleport, it was a 'WTF?' moment that made him save the money.

With ME3, there was paid-for DLC at launch and the hoo-ha over assets found on retail disks. The fact that EA owns Bioware is one reason why people think the worse.

[RickyGerbail]

from the hardcore gamers perspective it's not about EA or DLC, it's about game quality.
the people at bioware have really just been looking at maximising their profits during the last decade. they've systematically removed rpg elements, dumbed down, streamlined and turned the charming fantasy of baldurs gate into the usual teenage power/porn fantasy with dragon age 1 and dragon age 2. the first mass effect had a good story for an rpg, ok fighting system for an rpg and some decent dialog, i can't knock that game too much. second mass effect had better fps mechanics, more repetitious and easier combat and worse story.

[RickyGerbail]

the use of 3d and audio for all conversation has made the exploratory part of rpgs more or less dissapear. content is so expensive to produce that you can't have large portions of the game remain undiscovered after the player has finished playing. this obviously leads to games that are less varied in how they can be played and what can happen.

[Ignatius_S]

El Reg takes a look at the Wasteland 2 kickstarter campaign.

from the hardcore gamers perspective it's not about EA or DLC, it's about game quality....

And DLC doesn't relate to game quality? What about DLC to Fallout 3, which enabled people to continue playing the game after the completion of the main storyline?

Going back to ME 3 to various write-ups about the first DLC I've seen, it sounds rather good. Although reviewers are at pains saying it's not strictly 'essential', it's added to their enjoyment and one went as far to say that the mission was his favourite in ME3. Meanwhile, I've read various comments from punters who felt the content in the DLC is pretty damn important.

That there was paid-for DLC from day one leaves an unpleasant taste in the mouth for many - regardless of if they're a 'hardcore gamer' or not.

...the people at bioware have really just been looking at maximising their profits during the last decade. they've systematically removed rpg elements, dumbed down, streamlined and turned the charming fantasy of baldurs gate into the usual teenage power/porn fantasy with dragon age 1 and dragon age 2....

Such changes have been more noticeable since EA bought the company. Rightly or wrongly, EA has a reputation of buying decent companies and running them into the ground.

[RickyGerbail]

Personally i don't buy into EA screwing up bioware, from the interviews i've read with the bioware doctors they are in charge and they want "story driven" games or whatever.

[A.A]

Just for clarification:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/66710809/double-fine-adventure

This is not Psychonauts 2, but in fact, the next graphic adventure game from the mastermind behind Day of the Tentacle, Grim Fandango and Full Throttle (he also co-wrote Monkey Island). If you don't respect that shit, you don't know very much about (old-school) gaming.

It raised 3.4 million dollars in a month, and for the amount I pledged, I'm getting a T-shirt, an old-school boxed copy of the game, a DVD/Blu-ray of the documentary that's being made detailing the making of the game, a Tim Schafer/Ron Gilbert signed poster,  a Tim Schafer-signed  hard copy of an artwork book for the game, access to the Beta version on Steam, and my name in the credits.

What's this Wasteland 2 crap about? Phht...

Also: Why the Schafer-hate?

[RickyGerbail]

Just for clarification:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/66710809/double-fine-adventure

This is not Psychonauts 2, but in fact, the next graphic adventure game from the mastermind behind Day of the Tentacle, Grim Fandango and Full Throttle (he also co-wrote Monkey Island). If you don't respect that shit, you don't know very much about (old-school) gaming.

Well Tim Schafer also designed psychonauts. I don't really find these game super exciting even though i've played most of the classicz.

What's this Wasteland 2 crap about? Phht...

Also: Why the Schafer-hate?

wasteland2? phhht only the sequel to the game that was precursor to the fallout games by one of the co-creators of such classics as the fallout games, etc. phht. if you don't know about that shit, you don't know shit.

[Thursday]

Or maybe it's just not been that important or influential, and some people just started playing games later.

[madhair60]

I'm gonna make a KickStarter for all the old Disney games to come out in a compilation.

[RickyGerbail]

Or maybe it's just not been that important or influential, and some people just started playing games later.

I'm personally a big fan of the Wasteland series from having played the original game in the late 80s; I've also always admired Brian Fargo's courage to experiment with new designs and game engines from my time working with him in the early days of BioWare when we worked with Interplay, and as a result I'm really looking forward to seeing the next game in the Wasteland series!" - Ray Muzyka - CEO Bioware

"Hats off to Fargo and inXile, I'm definitely putting my money down when they start up their Kickstarter fund, and I'll donate just as much as I did to Double Fine.  Give me Wasteland 2 already." - Chris Avellone - RPG designer extraordinaire

"Brian was one of the pioneers for the computer RPG with games like Bard's Tale and Wasteland.  I would be very excited to see what Brian could achieve with a sequel to such a classic like the first Wasteland."         - Rob Pardo - Executive Vice President of Game Design, Blizzard Entertainment

[Mister Six]

he hasn't yet learned that "get tae fuck ye parasitical scumbags" is a perfectly acceptable response to quote-scavenging journos of any stripe.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't spread that around...

Anyway, 'hardcore gamers', eh? Is there any self-identifying group as tiresome, entitled and witless as them? Cunt off back to your NESes, you tedious fuckers. Even when I agree with the points you're making, I can't bear to read your spittle-flecked, pigeon-chest-pounding, self-aggrandising invective.

[RickyGerbail]

What does NES have to do with being a true hardcore gamer? I don't think you know what games a true hardcore gamer cherishes..

[Rachel]

Bit harsh there, Mister Six :< I'm just sad that games like Jagged Alliance 2 and Planescape Torment don't get made anymore because today's gamer thinks turn-based combat is boring and reading beautifully written dialogue wastes precious time that could be spent pounding faces in.

[RickyGerbail]

he's just feeling threatened by our hardcoreness.  JA2 and Planescape are wondrous games, even though the latter has the feel of being rushed towards the end and JA2 got repetitious when i found out how to win.

[chand]

Just for clarification:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/66710809/double-fine-adventure

This is not Psychonauts 2, but in fact, the next graphic adventure game from the mastermind behind Day of the Tentacle, Grim Fandango and Full Throttle (he also co-wrote Monkey Island). If you don't respect that shit, you don't know very much about (old-school) gaming.

Psychonauts was 7 years ago now though.  Double Fine also the masterminds behind Brutal Legend, a game which was approximately 1/4 as enjoyable as its premise made people hope, Costume Quest which attempted to cash in on Halloween with a couple of neat back-of-a-fag-packet ideas which failed to distract from the unreal shallowness of the actual game, and Stacking, which was another neat idea which was annoying in practice.

Psychonauts was brilliant, and I hope the Kickstarter thing leads to a great game, but Double Fine's recent stuff has been fairly underwhelming for me.

[chand]

Bit harsh there, Mister Six :< I'm just sad that games like Jagged Alliance 2 and Planescape Torment don't get made anymore because today's gamer thinks turn-based combat is boring

To be fair, some of us have always thought turn-based combat was boring.

[Thursday]

There's still clearly a niche for turn-based combat, and there are turn based tactical/strategy RPG's still available. Part of the problem seems to be a lot of Japanese Developers looking at Fallout 3 or The Elder Scrolls games and thinking "This is what the western market wants from an RPG" when it's actually what people want from Fallout and Skyrim. Then they go ahead and make a game that doesn't appeal to fans of Trad RPG's or Modern Western RPG's.

[chand]

There's still clearly a niche for turn-based combat, and there are turn based tactical/strategy RPG's still available.

There's a niche for child porn too. That doesn't mean we should let people indulge in it.

[RickyGerbail]

chand why are you parading around your lack of sophistication like this?

[chand]

chand why are you parading around your lack of sophistication like this?

Look, I'm not saying people who like turn-based combat are as bad as child porn enthusiasts. Even though they obviously are.

[Cohaagen]

I've got a massive boner in anticipation of Wasteland 2. I was actually really disappointed with the Ricky's Age of Decadence topic since I took the "hardcore RPG in the Fallout vein" description in the title to mean that it'd be a post-apocalyptic setting, when in fact it is another goddamn fucking fantasy effort, a genre that appeals primarily to children, loveshy women-avoiders, and Neo-Nazis. So this is great news - I loved the original Fallout games when they first came out, and did a playthrough of F2 quite recently with Killap's enormous Restoration Pack. Even Fallout 3 was pretty good, although the plotting and dialogue was sophomoric at best, and New Vegas managed to improve upon it in virtually every area including those two even though it was basically a glorified expansion pack at best. The DLCs were good too, particularly Old World Blues and Lonesome Road.

There is definitely an audience for traditional isometric, turn-based games out there. Witness the disappointment that accompanied the announcement of the first-person XCOM game, and the innumerable "spiritual successors" (clones) to the UFO/XCOM that have appeared over the last 15 years since Apocalypse was released, recalling but never equalling the peerless originals.

[RickyGerbail]

you're a fool to ignore that game because it is a "fantasy game", there are no fantasy creatures, no races other than humans, it's post apocalyptic but after the fall of a romanesque empire instead of modern real world civilization, the dialog is generally "hard boiled", there's barely any magic (no magicians as far as i know), it's got a very sophisticated, well tested turn based combat system, there are loads of different ways to finish the game, different factions, interesting non-combat skills, multiple playthroughs needed to get a decent grip of what's happening in the world, choices with deep consequences for the how the game evolves afterwards etc etc etc.