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Why does the world hate Alien 3?

Started by Blumf, June 12, 2012, 03:49:55 PM

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Blumf

As per the title, whyyyyy?

It keeps on popping up that lots of people don't like A3 and I just can't see a good reason for this. Some of it seems to be disappointment; either people wanting more space marine "Ooh-rah!" action or pining for what could have been from the early drafts (planet of wood), but to my mind the film, as is, stands pretty well on its own.

Disclaimer: I'm not a massive Alien films nerd, so I haven't paid much attention to the various versions, I last saw the Assembly Cut version of A3

Dead kate moss

It kills off Newt, the ONLY moppet in movies that you didn't want to die!

Otherwise it's not that bad, just a huge disappointment after the previous two movies. Haven't seen it for ages though.

El Unicornio, mang

It definitely loses points because it followed two magnificent films, and killed off three important characters in the first minute or so. Generally it has a very downbeat feeling throughout without any of the humour that lifted the first two. Also the special effects are ropey. It's OK though, at least they tried something different. I have similar feelings about Godfather III though. Decent standalone film which suffers in the shadow of it's predecessors.

Replies From View

Killing all but Ripley was a spectacularly brave thing to do, and the right thing to do.  A brilliantly nihilistic way to end the trilogy.

Blumf

That's a thing, I just don't rate A2 that much. It's an okay film, but a bit too generic. Each time I've re-watched it, I've liked it a little less, so wiping the slate clean in A3 was a positive.

Mini

I like it, you can see flashes of what a genius David Fincher would become, though he's presumably constrained by the studio. But perhaps the biggest problem, if I remember correctly, is just the distinct lack of characters. There's Ripley, and then man 1, man 2 etc. And a fairly unconvincing love interest.

chocky909

You're right about Aliens Blumf. I think James Cameron makes his films so that they're most enjoyable the first time you watch them so they don't really stand up to repeat viewings.

El Unicornio, mang

I dunno, I've seen Aliens about 50 times and still love it, and the last 30 mins still gets my heart racing. I know some people who literally watch it at least once a week (although they are proper Aliens obsessives who dress up as characters and stuff). And I've seen the first two Terminator films umpteen times as well. Titanic, not so much...

Pete23

I think a lot of people were expecting the third film to go back to earth and to ramp up the odds even more with thousands of the bastards running amok (like in the Dark Horse comics), so it's no wonder that it wasn't particularly well received.

I like the grimness of Alien 3 - everyone's fucked, so why not just go out with a final victory for the little guy over The Man. Also it makes the Alien badass again; the aliens only seem to be a threat in Aliens because of their numbers (not including the Queen, obviously) so it's nice to see it back as the ultimate killing machine.

Far too many British actors saying "wanker" though.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Blumf on June 12, 2012, 04:36:31 PM
That's a thing, I just don't rate A2 that much. It's an okay film, but a bit too generic. Each time I've re-watched it, I've liked it a little less, so wiping the slate clean in A3 was a positive.

Me neither. I hate all the gung-ho nonsense in A2. A3 is much better if only for the casting of Brian Glover.

El Unicornio, mang

I think the gung-ho aspect works quite well though. We see these overly confident meathead Marines showing off their guns and whatnot who think it's going to be a cakewalk, and they all (bar one) turn into jibbering wrecks and get destroyed like pieces of paper . Ripley and Newt, having dealt with it all before, are the only ones who are able to handle it, which contrasts with how apprehensive and nervous they are at the start of the film. I actually think it's a very intelligent film underneath all the action.

Replies From View

Quote from: Blumf on June 12, 2012, 04:36:31 PM
That's a thing, I just don't rate A2 that much. It's an okay film, but a bit too generic. Each time I've re-watched it, I've liked it a little less, so wiping the slate clean in A3 was a positive.

And if people had been expecting the third film to follow in the style of Aliens, it would have seemed weak by comparison anyway.  "The ongoing adventures of Ripley, Hicks and Newt" would have been a pointless bore.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

Quote from: Mini on June 12, 2012, 04:37:26 PM
perhaps the biggest problem, if I remember correctly, is just the distinct lack of characters. There's Ripley, and then man 1, man 2 etc. And a fairly unconvincing love interest.
I don't know about that. The acting is a little on the hammy side, and there are a number of cannon fodder types, but the main cast are all developed well enough.

El Unicornio, mang

They could have kept the characters interesting if they'd followed the comics with Newt getting all jiggy with an android and the crazy Marine commander and all that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliens_(comic_book)

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: El Unicornio, mang on June 12, 2012, 05:25:12 PM
I think the gung-ho aspect works quite well though. We see these overly confident meathead Marines showing off their guns and whatnot who think it's going to be a cakewalk, and they all (bar one) turn into jibbering wrecks and get destroyed like pieces of paper . Ripley and Newt, having dealt with it all before, are the only ones who are able to handle it, which contrasts with how apprehensive and nervous they are at the start of the film. I actually think it's a very intelligent film underneath all the action.

That's a fair assessment, but I still found its bombastic, brash tone irritating. It's a while since I've seen A3 but isn't it a much quieter movie for the most part?

Dead kate moss

QuoteThe ongoing adventures of Ripley, Hicks and Newt" would have been a pointless bore.

I agree - I think Newt and maybe Hicks should've gotten to safety somehow. It may be 'nihilistic' but I resent watching Aliens and knowing that all of Ripley's hard work to save Newt is a waste of time.

I also agree that Aliens isn't 'gung-ho', as the Marines are handed their hard-asses no problem, and mostly go out crying and panicking.

El Unicornio, mang

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on June 12, 2012, 05:33:11 PM
That's a fair assessment, but I still found its bombastic, brash tone irritating. It's a while since I've seen A3 but isn't it a much quieter movie for the most part?

Pretty much. There's a quite long action scene at the end where they're trying to trap the alien, but mostly it's a lot of conversation scenes with brief flashes of the alien attacking something/someone.

Nuclear Optimism

I must be one of the few people who like the way they killed off Newt and Hicks; with the guy at the prison computer just typing up their names as being deceased. Such an unsentimental way of doing it, absolutely chilling. People always talk about this being a slap in the face to the fans of the second film, due to the ridiculous idea that if somebody survives it to the end of one movie, then they somehow have immunity from death for any subsequent films.

If there's one big problem with the film, it's that because every character apart from Ripley is a murderer or rapist, so you don't care whether they live or die, unlike the much more sympathetic space truckers or space marine from the previous films.

Two things worth noting:

1) The Assembly Cut on the DVDs still had all the shitty on-set dialogue recording for the deleted scenes so it never really held together, but they got the cast back to do ADR for the Blu-Ray, so it's much more seamless and feels like a (slightly) more finished film.

2) Anyone moaning about the terrible CGI alien is a moron. The only CGI shot of the xenomorph is his head cracking up, the rest is a physical marionette that's just been badly composited in to the scenes.

Quote from: Replies From View on June 12, 2012, 04:17:18 PM
Killing all but Ripley was a spectacularly brave thing to do, and the right thing to do.  A brilliantly nihilistic way to end the trilogy.

Er, killing all including Ripley, surely?

Quote from: El Unicornio, mang on June 12, 2012, 03:57:26 PM
Generally it has a very downbeat feeling throughout without any of the humour that lifted the first two.

There are some funny bits though (like when the alien grabs someone in the mess hall, and everyone scrambles around in a panic. Then they all goes quiet, and one guy just let's out a simple "FACK!"). Come to think of it, what humour is there in the first one?

Replies From View

#18
Quote from: Nuclear Optimism on June 12, 2012, 05:45:10 PM
1) The Assembly Cut on the DVDs still had all the shitty on-set dialogue recording for the deleted scenes so it never really held together, but they got the cast back to do ADR for the Blu-Ray, so it's much more seamless and feels like a (slightly) more finished film

I've only seen the DVD version and didn't think it held up particularly well.  It's an interesting extra to have, but it doesn't add anything essential, and given the way the new alien moves and behaves it makes more sense that it'd come from a dog than an ox.


Quote from: Nuclear Optimism on June 12, 2012, 05:45:10 PM
If there's one big problem with the film, it's that because every character apart from Ripley is a murderer or rapist, so you don't care whether they live or die, unlike the much more sympathetic space truckers or space marine from the previous films.

I actually find them far more interesting than the marines in Aliens, precisely because they aren't presented as one-dimensional good guys.  After spending a bit of time with them their nuances start coming through, and I don't want them to be killed off.  It's also great the way the film mercilessly snatches away Charles Dutton's character just as Ripley is warming to him.  Fantastic stuff.


Quote from: Nuclear Optimism on June 12, 2012, 05:45:10 PM
Er, killing all including Ripley, surely?

Sorry, I should have stated I meant "at the start of the film".  Then of course Ripley sacrifices herself to stop the company getting their hands on the chestbursting Alien Queen.  I actually find what Alien Resurrection does next to be far more of a kick in the teeth than how Alien 3 starts.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: El Unicornio, mang on June 12, 2012, 05:37:02 PM
Pretty much. There's a quite long action scene at the end where they're trying to trap the alien, but mostly it's a lot of conversation scenes with brief flashes of the alien attacking something/someone.

Ah, yes, I enjoyed the quiet tension.

Quote from: Nuclear Optimism on June 12, 2012, 05:45:10 PM
If there's one big problem with the film, it's that because every character apart from Ripley is a murderer or rapist, so you don't care whether they live or die, unlike the much more sympathetic space truckers or space marine from the previous films.

What I liked about that was that it made the movie as much about who of the humans could be trusted as it was about escaping the aliens.

El Unicornio, mang

Quote from: Nuclear Optimism on June 12, 2012, 05:45:10 PM


There are some funny bits though (like when the alien grabs someone in the mess hall, and everyone scrambles around in a panic. Then they all goes quiet, and one guy just let's out a simple "FACK!"). Come to think of it, what humour is there in the first one?

There's quite a lot of humourous dialogue between the characters before all the nasty stuff starts happening, particularly between Parker and Brett. I mean, the film isn't a laugh riot but I definitely find it quite light in comparison to the relentless gloom of Alien3.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth


Tiny Poster

Quote from: El Unicornio, mang on June 12, 2012, 05:32:58 PM
They could have kept the characters interesting if they'd followed the comics with Newt getting all jiggy with an android and the crazy Marine commander and all that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliens_(comic_book)

Bloody hell, I read the terrible novelisations of those when I was a kid, and never realised that Billie and Wilks were supposed to be the same characters.

El Unicornio, mang

I didn't even know that they changed the names for the reprints until I saw the wiki as I read them before Alien 3, when they had the names still the same.



(that's just a dream sequence btw, they didn't actually make Hicks a rapist)

Shoulders?-Stomach!


Phil_A

I like Alien 3 well enough, but they really should've gone with the Vincent Ward & John Fasano script that was basically "The Name Of The Rose" in space, with aliens. It could've been brilliant.

I'm a alien!


EDIT: That was supposed to be a tag but I typed it in the wrong place.

Peru

I love it. I think the longer cut stands with the first two. The cinematic cut is butchered and should be discarded - it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Why I love it:

- It seems that the major stumbling block for so many people is the death of Hicks and Newt. I can't personally understand how this situation can be seen as particularly "unfair" given the rules of the universe that have already been established. And jiminy jillikers - the whole point is that Ripley gets another replacement daughter - the Alien queen. Throughout the films the through-line of childbirth reaches this apocalyptic point in Alien 3 when she gets to give birth again - but must die to do it.

- The shittiness of the way that companies treat people throughout the whole series is brought to an absolutely gobsmacking close here. To end a series in the arsehole of the arse-end of nowhere, with a bunch of people who the world doesn't care about, miles from anywhere, with a company that has been revealed to be increasingly unscrupulous coming to wipe everyone out....I love the smallness of that world, of that strange community. It's so unfair that she ends up there - but that's also what's so amazing about it for me, the strange singularity of it. It would never, ever get made now, something that downbeat and tough.

- It introduces religion into the series. The alien becomes the devil, or the dragon - a mythical creature. The prisoners think the alien is judging them for their crimes - that it is the end times (which, of course, it is, story-wise).

- Sigourney Weaver gives one hell of a performance. Just look at the scene where she's in the medical pod and has to look at what's growing inside her.

- Charles Dance and Brian Glover = ace.

EDIT - It's quite remarkable how similar the Alien films are in tone and scope to the first three Romero zombie films - and the critical responses to each of those films (Night, Dawn, Day) have been very similar.

#28
I've only just seen the 100% misleading teaser trailer for Alien3 that came out in 1991.
For fuck's sake!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk_x9W1xKng

I haven't re-watched it for ages, but I remember when I eventually got round to watching it when someone lent me the Quadrilogy DVD set some years ago, I really didn't think it was the atrocity that a lot of people would have you believe.

Nice and atmospheric.  Good performances. Looks great.  Was quite happy with it.  As someone who's always preferred Alien to Aliens, I thought it was all the better for not being another action film.

Hell of a lot better than Alien:Resurrection, put it that way.  I went to the cinema to see that with a girl I was seeing at the time.  She nearly cried at the end when the alien crumbles to bits when it gets sucked out of the airlock because at one point "he looked a bit like a big frightened dog".  We parted company soon afterwards.

Blumf

Alien:Resurrection = Itchy and Scratchy do Aliens