(actual) Obscene Films

[Johnny Townmouse]

I think there have been bleaker threads. Although if I wanted to avoid bleak I think I would have the common-sense to avoid a thread with this title.

[Thomas]

I don't want to avoid bleak stuff. It fascinates me in its gloomy ways.

[Noodle Lizard]

There's a bloody hilarious account of the origins and blow by blow (or turd by vomit) review of that one on Something Awful - http://www.somethingawful.com/d/horrors-of-porn/horrible-saga-swapavi.php

Yes, I read that again just the other day (around the time I started this thread, as it happens).  So strange that what started out as a bit of nerdy forum banter turned into (what sounds like) one of the most heinously depraved videos ever made.  Makes you think what CaB could accomplish if we got our act together.

[mcbpete]

If it involves Waxwork René then I'll definitely fund a kickstarter.

[thenoise]

Went through my phase of seeking out the nastiest films I could quite a while ago.  It's amazing to me how easily stuff like this is available.  I remember how nervous I was importing my Japanese dvds of the Guinea Pig films around the turn of the millennium, wondering if customs would seize them first.

Other stuff I still have, other than those mentioned - All Night Long trilogy, nasty Japanese films which revel in violence and sadism, but pretty well made and with nice plot and atmosphere.
Nekromantik - student film twaddle, shot on grainy 8mm with lots of slo-mo effects and arty music.  Pretty pretentious but I have a soft spot for it.

It's too much of a 'proper' film to belong here really, but Cannibal Holocaust is more disturbing than any of these due to the animal killings - not a documentary but killed for the sake of the film, not in a lingering way but they corpses lovingly cut up in squishy close up for the camera.  It's a great film in many ways but no excuse for that.

[acrow]

Went through my phase of seeking out the nastiest films I could quite a while ago.  It's amazing to me how easily stuff like this is available.  I remember how nervous I was importing my Japanese dvds of the Guinea Pig films around the turn of the millennium, wondering if customs would seize them first.

Other stuff I still have, other than those mentioned - All Night Long trilogy, nasty Japanese films which revel in violence and sadism, but pretty well made and with nice plot and atmosphere.
Nekromantik - student film twaddle, shot on grainy 8mm with lots of slo-mo effects and arty music.  Pretty pretentious but I have a soft spot for it.

It's too much of a 'proper' film to belong here really, but Cannibal Holocaust is more disturbing than any of these due to the animal killings - not a documentary but killed for the sake of the film, not in a lingering way but they corpses lovingly cut up in squishy close up for the camera.  It's a great film in many ways but no excuse for that.

there are now six all night long films. that could be false. they might have made more since i last checked that out. but yeah, the first three are definitely the best. and nasty. yes.

i'm going to ignore every single one of your opinions from now on since you call nekromantik "student film twaddle" but then hold the HILARIOUS opinion that cannibal holocaust is somehow a 'proper' film. just because ch looks a bit nicer and has a great soundtrack (i think nekromantik does too) is no reason to hold it higher than nekromantik. i think nekromantik says far more about humanity and love and everything than cannibal holocaust ever could. "who are the real savages?" fuck off deodato, you horrible cunt.[nb]i love that film and think he's made a few more nasty belters[/nb]

[Johnny Townmouse]

I concur with the cunt.

Nekromantik doesn't do any of that fucking American mondo moral bullshit - it's quite a wonderful, unswervingly brave film that I can't believe I haven't already mentioned.

[Hank Venture]

If you deliberately seek out footage of real killings/torture, there is something wrong with you. Have a word with yourself.

[Johnny Townmouse]

If you deliberately seek out footage of real killings/torture, there is something wrong with you. Have a word with yourself.

Complete and utter judgmental bullshit.

Have a word with yourself, whatever the fuck that means.

[Hank Venture]

What's the appeal in seeing someone's face being smashed in with a hammer for 10 minutes, or however long it is? What are you getting out of it - is it curiosity, are you entertained by it, do you find it interesting?

[Johnny Townmouse]

What's the appeal in seeing someone's face being smashed in with a hammer for 10 minutes, or however long it is? What are you getting out of it - is it curiosity, are you entertained by it, do you find it interesting?

Why do assume it is about appeal?

Do I find it interesting? Yes. There are many things covered by the news, or dramatised in cinema, that is hard to stomach, but is worthy of being watched purely because it is happening in the world.

I don't play computer games though, so I'm not all bad, right?

[acrow]

If you deliberately seek out footage of real killings/torture, there is something wrong with you. Have a word with yourself.

i absolutely agree. and i speak as someone who has sought out that kind of stuff. i have the entire faces and traces of death series on vhs and most of them on dvd. i have watched so so many of those faux mondo death series over the years. i don't think that having "something wrong with you" is a particularly terrible problem though. for me it was just an incredibly morbid curiosity. i've stopped seeking that kind of stuff out. there was that guy from montreal who stuck his video online a year or so ago (maybe a few months) where he cut up the guy he was fucking. i haven't looked for that one. i think i'm just over that terrible fascination. i've seen some awful awful things and it has never brought me any pleasure.

i do wish that all the real gore stuff hadn't been brought up in this thread alongside the more intense fictional horror stuff. i know that there is definitely a crossover between "fans" of the two but it just makes everyone who watches the fictional stuff seem like a sick fuck. and i use the term "sick fuck" in the most positive possible way because i'm absolutely one of them.

EDIT: yeah, what j. tmuss said. it's happening. i'm interested in the world around me. i'm interested in those lovely stories about some random person giving up a kidney for a small ugly child. i'm also interested in those stories where someone stabs a guy in the eyeball with a screwdriver. people are fascinating.

[Hank Venture]

Why do assume it is about appeal?

Because you do it, simple as. The gain of watching it is larger than whatever qualms you might have about it. The worth of watching it because it's something that happens > whatever terrible consequences watching it has. If you didn't think that, presumeably you wouldn't watch it, as it is a choice no one is forcing upon you.

Do I find it interesting? Yes. There are many things covered by the news, or dramatised in cinema, that is hard to stomach, but is worthy of being watched purely because it is happening in the world.

There are also many things happening in the world you would never, ever download a clip of. Small_world touched upon it upthread.

I don't play computer games though, so I'm not all bad, right?

Don't know what this means.

[acrow]

There are also many things happening in the world you would never, ever download a clip of. Small_world touched upon it upthread.

i touched on this in my edit, and maybe i'm just speaking for myself, but i absolutely do watch clips of any human activity i find interesting.

[Hank Venture]

i touched on this in my edit

Don't think you did, mate. Unless I'm reading something in small_world's comment that isn't there.

[Johnny Townmouse]

Because you do it, simple as.

For you this concept does sound simple. I think we agree on that.

The gain of watching it is larger than whatever qualms you might have about it. The worth of watching it because it's something that happens > whatever terrible consequences watching it has. If you didn't think that, presumeably you wouldn't watch it, as it is a choice no one is forcing upon you.

Firstly, I teach and I use some of this material in my teaching. Despite that, I have watched this kind of thing amongst many other kind of footage for many years. A dip into the Grimmest Documentaries thread here on CaB offers a plethora of films and footage/recordings that somehow have some kind of cultural relevance because they are framed as documentaries. This form of validation makes little sense to me. I would say that some of the content of many of those documentaries has disturbed me more than 'real' footage (again, whatever the fuck that means).

There are also many things happening in the world you would never, ever download a clip of. Small_world touched upon it upthread.

There are things that I don't think I would be able stomach watching, but I don't judge other people for having more tolerance than me.

Don't know what this means.

Right.

What is it, exactly, that you think is "wrong" with people who occasionally watch the footage you are alluding to?

[acrow]

Don't think you did, mate. Unless I'm reading something in small_world's comment that isn't there.

just meant the part about only downloading videos of certain horrific human activities. i'm too lazy to go back and read small world's comment.

that's what i touched on. i touched on it hard.

at various points i have had videos of beheadings and lovely wedding proposals on my hard drive.

that's it.

and don't call me mate or i'll cut you up.

[Noodle Lizard]

Eh, I don't often search for "real footage".  I never go on sites like Rotten or Ogrish, very rarely watch links of that nature that people send me.  Every now and then though, it is life-affirming to have a look at just how fucked up some "real" things are.  A completely different kettle of lizards to enjoijijiying the cinematic nasty nasties.

[Johnny Townmouse]

A completely different kettle of lizards to enjoijijiying the cinematic nasty nasties.

Unless you watch Child's Play 3 and kill a child you sick fuck. Have a word.[nb]With yourself.[/nb]

[Noodle Lizard]

Unless you watch Child's Play 3 and kill a child you sick fuck. Have a word.[nb]With yourself.[/nb]

I don't believe in a causal link between entertainment and violence ... though 3Guys1Hammer did inspire me to do some DIY.  HAHA OH SOMEBODY STOP ME[nb]do it yourself[/nb].

[Famous Mortimer]

That bloke who filmed himself committing suicide about Bjork inspired me to listen to a few of her tracks again.

[Hank Venture]

For you this concept does sound simple. I think we agree on that.

Nice one. Yes, I do think it's quite simple - if you do something no one is forcing you to do, the that something has an appeal. 'The appeal' can take form of financial gain, joy you get out of it, passing the time, maybe you find the educational value appealling, etc. I don't think that's complicated at all.

Firstly, I teach and I use some of this material in my teaching.

That's something else then. You need it for work, teaching whatever it is you are teaching.

Despite that, I have watched this kind of thing amongst many other kind of footage for many years.

This is more what I was talking about.

A dip into the Grimmest Documentaries thread here on CaB offers a plethora of films and footage/recordings that somehow have some kind of cultural relevance because they are framed as documentaries.

Somehow? It's quite obvious how they have some kind of cultural relevance. You watch them to learn something, to hear what people involved in the grimness say when talking to an outsider, to get new perspectives, etc. If there was a documentary about the Dnepropetrovsk Maniacs I could take something away from that, why they did it, what experts on the field would say, how that influenced the politics and so on. Just watching the 3guys1hammer tape only teaches me what the inside of a man's head look like in a plastic bag. If I was, say, a psychologist I might watch it, or a medical student. But then I'm watching it for other reasons than just to confirm that gruesome things exist in our world. I know that already, I don't need visual confirmation. I don't want it either, unless it serves a point.

This form of validation makes little sense to me. I would say that some of the content of many of those documentaries has disturbed me more than 'real' footage (again, whatever the fuck that means).

What real footage means? It means not faked, ie. not played by actors, not special effects. Actual bodily harm to human beings.

There are things that I don't think I would be able stomach watching, but I don't judge other people for having more tolerance than me.

Sexual assault? Child porn? It's the same thing to me, I know it exist in this world, but I don't have any need to watch it because it exist in and of itself. If it's a documentary on rape which is bleak as fuck, that's one thing, but that's a frankly a complete different thing to self-made footage of women being raped.

Right.

Pardon? Oh, wait a second ...

Unless you watch Child's Play 3 and kill a child you sick fuck.

Is that what you imagine I've written or meant? The passive-aggressive video-game analogy makes sense now. No, I don't think that.

Have a word.[nb]With yourself.[/nb]

Isn't that a quite common saying?

What is it, exactly, that you think is "wrong" with people who occasionally watch the footage you are alluding to?

Firstly I find it disrespectful to the victims, and the family and friends of the victims. Can't imagine they want the horrible assaults of their loved ones spread on the internet, even though it makes no difference to them in reality I morally object. If someone I knew was killed on camera I would be devastated and disgusted if the footage spread on the internet and was watched by thousands to remind themselves that the world is a bad place.

Secondly I think it's strange that someone would need visual confirmation to remind themselves that evil exists.

Thirdly I think it's a form of masochism for many, a challenge to make yourself feel shit and overcome that feeling. Or a challenge to yourself, as the things you've seen has stunted you to the point of seeing something awful is met with a shrug of the shoulders and 'meh, I've seen worse'. That happened to me, when I used to browse the chan boards. Gore almost had no effect on me towards the end, and I think that's a bad development. You're supposed to react with horror if you see a child get hit by a car, or whatever. Noodle Lizard and acrow can probably prove me right/wrong on this, they seem to have put themselves through these things on purpose. I was desensitized (sp) after a period, maybe that was just me.

and don't call me mate or i'll cut you up.

As long as you don't film it.

A completely different kettle of lizards to enjoijijiying the cinematic nasty nasties.

Oh, I agree. Don't have an issue with that at all.

[Johnny Townmouse]

Right-o. Let's do this:

Nice one. Yes, I do think it's quite simple - if you do something no one is forcing you to do, the that something has an appeal. 'The appeal' can take form of financial gain, joy you get out of it, passing the time, maybe you find the educational value appealling, etc. I don't think that's complicated at all.

You framed it as 'appeal' which in this case, and given your perspective, is rather a loaded term, no? I have an interest in making sure that my gutters are clear by checking them regularly - I'm not sure I find that very appealing. The stock answer to that, which I'm sure you are thinking, will be 'yes, but you need to check gutters, you don't need to watch footage of people dying'. Well, in that case the use of the word 'appeal' is troublesome in the context of your judgement - I find it 'appealing' in the same way as looking at photos of my friend who was killed. Grim fascination, educating myself, developing, etc.

That's something else then. You need it for work, teaching whatever it is you are teaching.

I don't 'need' it, I choose to use it to serve an end. The same way as someone who is making a documentary may have to watch unpleasant material. I don't make a distinction between my viewing of this for teaching, and personal interest, from a moral point of view

This is more what I was talking about.

Actually, you haven't made many distinctions at all - and your original post was a throw-away judgmental comment with little in the way of informed context. It read like a comment under a Daily Mail article.

Somehow? It's quite obvious how they have some kind of cultural relevance. You watch them to learn something, to hear what people involved in the grimness say when talking to an outsider, to get new perspectives, etc.

So you believe that footage in itself does not help you learn something? You must always have talking heads, Errol Morris style, staring at the camera and helping you think things? What about footage used in news reports?

If there was a documentary about the Dnepropetrovsk Maniacs I could take something away from that, why they did it, what experts on the field would say, how that influenced the politics and so on.

So, you would have some, probably very subjective, commentary on the historical, social and perhaps psychological context for why these boys did that? So it all needs to be neatly tied up in a biased documentary to make it ok? That sounds to me a lot like the bullshit Mondo films that justify their salaciousness by surrounding it with fake moral narration. I had read rather a lot about those three boys prior to seeing any footage at all - a mixture of court records, news pieces and reportage - all of it biased. Seeing the footage itself was another part of the context - I didn't need Prof. Talking Head MD to somehow validate the viewing of the material, and I would argue that the material in isolation is in itself a valid and useful way to understand some of why that happened. In part.

Just watching the 3guys1hammer tape only teaches me what the inside of a man's head look like in a plastic bag. If I was, say, a psychologist I might watch it, or a medical student. But then I'm watching it for other reasons than just to confirm that gruesome things exist in our world. I know that already, I don't need visual confirmation. I don't want it either, unless it serves a point.

You don't need visual confirmation. Good for you. I don't need visual confirmation that nature is amazing, but I still watched Blue Planet, and I still go to the park. You are making value judgements of a rather knee-jerk and reactionary hue based purely on your own preferences, and 'needs'. I refer you to your original post.

Sexual assault? Child porn? It's the same thing to me, I know it exist in this world, but I don't have any need to watch it because it exist in and of itself. If it's a documentary on rape which is bleak as fuck, that's one thing, but that's a frankly a complete different thing to self-made footage of women being raped.

I guess this gets to the nub of the argument. Yes, there are things I would personally choose not to watch, but not many. You say sexual assualt, child porn, and I guess death footage are the same thing. Yes, for you. That is the boundary you have made for yourself. Except, it seems, unless someone else has watched it and edited it together in a documentary. The issue here is your view of other people who have different boundaries to yourself. Hence: knee-jerk and reactionary.

You give the example of a documentary on rape, as opposed to 'self-made footage of women being raped'. OK, what about a documetary that features clips of this 'self-made' material? Is it really just about context for you?

Pardon? Oh, wait a second ...
Is that what you imagine I've written or meant? The passive-aggressive video-game analogy makes sense now. No, I don't think that.

I was just reassuring you that I don't play computer games, because there are some people who believe that violent games are played by people with sick minds who perhaps need psychological help. They don't see any other rational reason why a person would want to see violent actions, or even take part in them by proxy in a game, and have quite a knee-jerk and reactionary attitude to it. Usually based on their judgmental attitudes to something they personally prefer not to do.

Isn't that a quite common saying?

Probably.

Firstly I find it disrespectful to the victims, and the family and friends of the victims. Can't imagine they want the horrible assaults of their loved ones spread on the internet, even though it makes no difference to them in reality I morally object. If someone I knew was killed on camera I would be devastated and disgusted if the footage spread on the internet and was watched by thousands to remind themselves that the world is a bad place.

So it is the watching of the material that is disrespectful or the hosting of the footage on websites? How does this fit into your original post that there is "something wrong with people" that seek the material? How do you feel about the news and documentaries showing footage? Where do you draw the line when it comes to disrespect?

Why do you insist on believing that footage is watched solely to "remind themselves that the world is a bad place"? This ill-informed diagnosis seems to be your entire foundation for your view that people that watch specific material have something wrong with them.

Secondly I think it's strange that someone would need visual confirmation to remind themselves that evil exists.

Well, (a) I think most educated people don't believe in such a stupid notion as 'evil', (b) not everyone is trying to remind themselves of anything (perhaps understand why people watch documentaries and apply it to death footage), and (c) you finding it "strange" means fuck-all unless you start thinking that is a basis for diagnosing thousands/millions of people.

Thirdly I think it's a form of masochism for many, a challenge to make yourself feel shit and overcome that feeling.

I think there is a partial truth to this, undeniably. Does that mean those people have something "wrong" with them? Huge swathes of people seem to spend rather a lot of time setting themselves goals that they wish to overcome, whether it be computer games or extreme sports.

Or a challenge to yourself, as the things you've seen has stunted you to the point of seeing something awful is met with a shrug of the shoulders and 'meh, I've seen worse'. That happened to me, when I used to browse the chan boards. Gore almost had no effect on me towards the end, and I think that's a bad development. You're supposed to react with horror if you see a child get hit by a car, or whatever. Noodle Lizard and acrow can probably prove me right/wrong on this, they seem to have put themselves through these things on purpose. I was desensitized (sp) after a period, maybe that was just me.

Desensitisation seems to be, by default, regarded as an objectionally 'bad' thing without any rigorous analysis or explanation for why this should be the case. I don't know that desensisitation to any forms of violence, fictional or non-fictional, is inherently a bad thing, or that it has real-world problems. This takes us to the issue of watching any extreme material - real footage, fake footage, films, video games etc - and whether it has a real-world context that can be regarded as negative. I guess I have become densensitised to some extent - but what is the outcome of that? Does it mean the next time I see a man getting burned to death by a mob I will pull out my mobile phone and record it, or shrug my shoulders and walk off. I would argue that the viewing of specific material has provided me with a far rounder and more informed understanding of psychology. politics and morality, and I don't necessarily need a subjective documentary to sugar the pill of those horrors in order to make it meaningful, rather than voyeuristic.

I'm sorry that you feel your desensitisation was such a negative thing for you - but why are you using it to diagnose everyone else?

[acrow]

i don't really have anything significant to add since it seems you two are holding it down on the intellectual discussion regarding this kind of shit.

i can only speak for myself. i don't feel desensitised while watching stuff like this. it bothers me as much as it did when i first started watching this kind of stuff with the faces of death series and random tapes people would give me. i've seen pretty much every one of these videos. just as an aside, the one video that disturbed me more than any other is tommy cooper dying. i've seen it so many times and it still amkes me feel sick. i remember being amazed that the whole thing was on youtube for ages. i'm assuming it's not there any more.

i can't explain why i've sought out stuff like this. it's just curiosity.

as much as j.t mouse might disagree i genuinely do think that seeking this stuff out probably does expose some kind of pathology. i know that in my years of therapy it's been brought up. i don't think that it's casue for concern though. to me it just seems like the same thing as someone being inordinately fascinated with sylvia plath let's say, or kurt cobain. death is a part of life and ignoring it seems stranger to me than paying attention. i do understand the idea that there's a difference between watching a "serious" documentary about something unpleasant and just watching the raw footage, but i think it probably comes from the same place.

[Noodle Lizard]

As far as fictional obscenity goes, I think I mostly watch it to test my limits.  That and those kinds of films can elicit reactions that few "mainstream" ones can, simply by virtue of their lack of restrictions on content.  That doesn't make many (or even any) of them great films, but certainly interesting to watch.

Of course with things like 'Salo', I'd actively say a person is missing out if they haven't seen it.  Not so much with yer 'August Undergrounds' or 'Guinea Pigs', but I do think there's a place for them.  Showing them to the kind of people who declare themselves fans of that kind of stuff by virtue of having not flinched during 'SAW 3' or whatever is certainly one good reason for any smug prick to have them in their collection.

With real-life stuff, er ... yeah, what acrow said, probably.  Though oddly 'Faces of Death' never bothered me, mostly because I knew that a lot of it wasn't real.

[hedgehog90]

Someone mentioned videos of child abuse earlier.
I really don't see how this video of a man having his head pummelled with hammers (?) is BETTER than watching a child being rape.

They're both horiffic, but if I was forced to watch it (a la clockwork orange), I know I would rather see the latter than the former. (ignoring the legallity of it ofcourse)
And my gut feeling is that it's morally worse to watch a graphic video of murder than rape.

If you are so curious to see these murder videos, what stops you from watching a bit of child porn?
I'm not outraged/accusing you or anything. I'm just curious, because I think you could easily use your argument for watching murder videos and use it to defend watching child porn.

I've often thought that many "paedophiles" are probably just this. IOW morbidly curious, not sexual predators.

[phantom_power]

I think there is something in human nature to want to see these sorts of things. I have curiosity but I know it would depress and haunt me too much to see something like 3guys1hammer.

[glitch]

From a few pages back.

Has anyone seen Swap.avi, by the way?

Yes - and it's unofficial sequel "Extreme Diarrhoea Maniacs".

I used to live with somebody who worked for a streaming porn company, who had to watch all the videos sent to them and work out whether the company could stream them in the UK. She did a lot of work with the BBFC to make sure they stayed on the right side of the law. As such, she thought she was pretty desensitised, and so did I, so I downloaded swap.avi out of morbid curiosity.

It's as bad as you can imagine and has absolutely no artistic merit. Strangely, once we turned the audio off, it was much easier to watch. Mainly because you couldn't hear all the vomiting going on off-camera.

[kngen]

Back in my 20s, I was well into my Apocalypse Culture/Anton La Vey stuff which would bring me into contact with all manner of gruesome stuff, which I sought out with gusto. That was in a period of my life where I was thoroughly depressed, lonely and angry - I've since cheered up a bit, got married and - and the thought would have appalled me back then - am even considering having kids. And now I'm scared to even type the words 3guys1hammer lest the footage magically pop up and bum me out for the rest of the year. I'm not saying there's a direct correlation between depression and gazing into the abyss, but I will say this much - being happy turns you into a total fucking pussy!

[thenoise]

I really don't see how this video of a man having his head pummelled with hammers (?) is BETTER than watching a child being rape.

Most people who end up arrested for viewing child pornography have paid for it, haven't they?  If you enter your credit card details then you are helping to fund the makers of this stuff, which makes you partly responsible for the crime.

Murder videos are not, 'snuff movie' myths aside, made to satisfy demand.  Child pornography is.