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March 28, 2024, 11:47:13 AM

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White Noise

Started by Mark Steels Stockbroker, April 07, 2013, 10:16:30 AM

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Mark Steels Stockbroker

The seminal 60s electro-pioneers, as described in this blog post by someone else.

I expect we've had a thread about them before but the search function just never works for me, I always get a message saying I have no right to search the forum.

NoSleep

As seminal as it's possible to be when The United States Of America had already broke the ground a year before the release of White Noise's first album. The Cliff to USA's Elvis, once again.

Neil

I like both, but have been thinking about The United States Of America again just recently, as it's one of my favourite records of all time.

Use this to search, and then start a new thread anyway: http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/cabgoogle.php

Phil_A

Quote from: NoSleep on April 07, 2013, 10:51:03 AM
As seminal as it's possible to be when The United States Of America had already broke the ground a year before the release of White Noise's first album. The Cliff to USA's Elvis, once again.

Nah, I can't let that one go. For all their forward thinking techniques, The United States Of America were still largely a band in the traditional sense. The sound of the first White Noise album was derived almost entirely from tape editing/musique concrète techniques(of the kind that Derbyshire & Hodgson had learned during their time at the Radiophonic Workshop). The process was so painstaking it took them a year to produce four tracks, which was why ultimately the album was never finished, due to Island's insistence it be released early.

Comparing like for like just doesn't work in this case, they were both different projects with different aims. It's irrelevant which came first.

Johnny Townmouse

I'm with Phil-A here. Trying to find ur-text origin music is a tail-chasing venture, but White Noise were definitely eschewing most traditional rock/pop traditions.

Absorb the anus burn

White Noise were influenced by the cut up and tape manipulation music coming out of the European sound labs, especially the work of this man....


Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Johnny Townmouse on April 07, 2013, 01:47:54 PM
I'm with Phil-A here. Trying to find ur-text origin music is a tail-chasing venture, but White Noise were definitely eschewing most traditional rock/pop traditions.

Me too. Sorry NoSleep but you're way off with this one.

Brundle-Fly

Why does it have to be a pissing contest? Raymond Scott would be spinning in his binary grave.

Don_Preston

Anyway, wouldn't Silver Apples be a better comparison than the United States of America?

NoSleep

Silver Apples were even more of a "live" band than the USA, able to gig as a duo. Simeon's homemade synth was made for live performance, with pads all over his body to active different notes.

Regarding the cut-up techniques of White Noise; there are examples going back to the 50s and early 60s of people making pop music that way (I'll have to consult my vinyl junkie friends to get names), so they certainly weren't the first, although possibly the most remembered. I recall hearing one ancient piece that sounded like a rave tune.

Also, cut up techniques are used extensively throughout the USA album; the final piece on the album is ends in a a sound collage made of excerpts from the other songs.

Whilst White Storm is an interesting curio with its highs and lows, the USA album is a stone cold classic from start to finish.

NoSleep

Quote from: Brundle-Fly on April 07, 2013, 08:14:49 PM
Why does it have to be a pissing contest? Raymond Scott would be spinning in his binary grave.

And yes, Raymond Scott was the pioneer of electro-pop.

Johnny Yesno

#11
Quote from: NoSleep on April 08, 2013, 11:25:37 AM
Whilst White Storm is an interesting curio with its highs and lows, the USA album is a stone cold classic from start to finish.

An Electric Storm, as Phil_A has already said, was a project with entirely different goals. It's the work of academic composers and, to be honest, that's why it's the cornier of the two projects. White Noise just weren't hip to the sounds the kids were into, daddio. With the exception of The Black Mass: An Electric Storm in Hell, the tunes are in the style of a previous generation but given cutting edge production techniques. They must have sounded oddly old-fashioned even at the time.

Brundle-Fly

TRIVIA
Black Mass is used in part in the Hammer film, Dracula 1972 AD In fact the whole funky soundtrack by Mike Vickers (and Stoneground) is worth investigating.

Phil_A

#13
Quote from: Johnny Yesno on April 08, 2013, 01:11:40 PM
An Electric Storm, as Phil_A has already said, was a project with entirely different goals. It's the work of academic composers and, to be honest, that's why it's the cornier of the two projects. White Noise just weren't hip to the sounds the kids were into, daddio. With the exception of The Black Mass: An Electric Storm in Hell, the tunes are in the style of a previous generation but given cutting edge production techniques. They must have sounded oddly old-fashioned even at the time.

I'd argue that makes it sound less dated to be honest, because it was somewhat out of step with the modish psych sounds of the time. I remember hearing "Here Come The Fleas" out of context and having no clue when it could've been recorded. It's much harder to pin down.

Quote from: NoSleep on April 08, 2013, 11:25:37 AM
Regarding the cut-up techniques of White Noise; there are examples going back to the 50s and early 60s of people making pop music that way (I'll have to consult my vinyl junkie friends to get names), so they certainly weren't the first, although possibly the most remembered. I recall hearing one ancient piece that sounded like a rave tune.


Yeah, I never claimed they did. I'm well aware that the the techniques of musique concrete go back right to the early years of recorded sound(even predating the invention of magnetic tape). The whole point I was trying to make was that whoever did it "first" doesn't really matter, and trying to have a willy-waving contest over it is a fool's game.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Phil_A on April 08, 2013, 04:06:57 PM
I'd argue that makes it sound less dated to be honest, because it was somewhat out of step with the modish psych sounds of the time. I remember hearing "Here Come The Fleas" out of context and having no clue when it could've been recorded. It's much harder to pin down.

Funnily enough, it sounds less dated to me now than it did when I bought the record, which was in the early 90s. Here Come the Fleas is my favourite track off the album but I can't help thinking that in 1969 its Goon Show style must have made it sound pretty dated, even if the production was cutting edge.

NoSleep

I can confirm that White Noise sounded a bit dated but quirky when it came out, whilst USA sounded the business. White Noise's 2nd album was absolute shite. Joe Byrd's follow up to USA wasn't so good either (being a psychedelia by numbers hack job with session musicians) but not the depths of White Noise II.

NoSleep

Quote from: Phil_A on April 07, 2013, 01:04:36 PM
Nah, I can't let that one go. For all their forward thinking techniques, The United States Of America were still largely a band in the traditional sense. The sound of the first White Noise album was derived almost entirely from tape editing/musique concrète techniques(of the kind that Derbyshire & Hodgson had learned during their time at the Radiophonic Workshop). The process was so painstaking it took them a year to produce four tracks, which was why ultimately the album was never finished, due to Island's insistence it be released early.

Comparing like for like just doesn't work in this case, they were both different projects with different aims. It's irrelevant which came first.

I was mainly reacting to the "seminal/pioneering" of the OP, which I've explained wasn't true. As you say yourself they were using techniques that were already existent. So all that's left is if they were doing that stuff in "pop" before anyone else, which they weren't.

momatt

Quote from: Neil on April 07, 2013, 11:10:58 AM
I like both
Exactly, both are great.  It doesn't really matter to me who did what first.
But only one band involves Delia Derbyshire.

Quote from: Phil_A on April 07, 2013, 01:04:36 PM
The process was so painstaking it took them a year to produce four tracks, which was why ultimately the album was never finished, due to Island's insistence it be released early.

What do you mean, not finished?  I don't understand.

Whatever we think, Brian Hodgson has recently said he thinks it's crap!