Films where the baddies win

[Deanjam]

The Great Escape

Most of them killed or recaptured. Only 3 escapees wasn't it? I'd say that's 1-0 to the Nazis.

[Noodle Lizard]

Oo oo 'The Devils'.

[thecuriousorange]

People always say The Empire Strikes Back when this topic comes up, but it doesn't have an ending when there's so clearly going to be another part.

You can't say 'The baddies won that episode of EastEnders'.

[Johnny Townmouse]

Yes you can.

[chocky909]

LOL.

Has anyone said The Wicker Man yet? If not then... The Wicker Man.

[Johnny Townmouse]

Close Encounters of the Third Kind

Idiot humans do not give a shit that many earthlings have been kidnapped Ohio style by mad probey aliens for decades, and instead of punishing them they offer up some more for them to take away and dissect.

[thecuriousorange]

Match Point. But I think it's a bit of a weaker rehash of Crimes and Misdemeanors and someone already said Crimes and Misdemeanors.

[eluc55]

The Godfather; Part 1 certainly. At the end of Part 2, Michael is still running the show and even more corrupt than before. And in 3, the other family take bloody ages in putting the audience out of their misery, but eventually succeed in killing Sofia Coppola.

The film Hannibal - in that Hannibal is villainous and escapes, and goes unpunished for his crimes.

Dr Strangelove, if we assume that the eponymous Doctor wants a nuclear apocalypse to occur.

This film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6hCCPCkIg4

[billtheburger]

It'sone of my favorite films and if I told you it's title and you hadn't seen it, the impact would ruin it.

[Noodle Lizard]

LOL.

Has anyone said The Wicker Man yet? If not then... The Wicker Man.

Speak for yourself, strumpet.  Personally, I don't see how Christopher Lee in drag can be considered a baddie.

[dr beat]

Not seen it for a while but would O Lucky Man count? 

[Doomy Dwyer]

Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Although the terms 'goodie' and 'baddie' are rendered ambiguous due to the charisma, blonde hair and twinkly eyed charm of Butch and Sundance (criminal, lawless, anti social - Bad) and the fact that the Bolivians (justice, law, order - Good) are portrayed as a faceless foreign sweaty mass. This is not racist. Some of my best friends are sweaty Bolivians. Mindless, relentless bureaucracy and Evil Triumphs.

The Unforgiven. William Munny fails spectacularly to walk the righteous path. Which is good, because he's fucking boring when he does. It does say that he becomes a dry good salesman at the end. But you can bet he's an evil dry goods salesman. Inherent Evil Triumphs.

Goodfellas. Despite all of the main protagonists ending up dead, imprisoned or living the rest of their lives in abject fear unable to even procure a simple pasta dish, the baddies ultimately win because there's something inherently glamorous about Italian Americans with wet hair saying 'Whaddayagunnado? Fuggedaboudit' and stabbing each other with pens as happens with unremitting tedium for the entire length of the film. Glamorous shiny suited Evil Triumphs.

Billy Liar. Billy spends the rest of his life living up North and not shagging Julie Christie. Drab Evil triumphs. 

[SteveDave]

Zodiac

I'm watching the directors cut now on Blue Raymond. The joys of unemployment.

[Johnny Townmouse]

Not seen it for a while but would O Lucky Man count?

Difficult one. There is a big, glorious dance at the end with all the main characters/actors.

[Kane Jones]

Buried

[Catalogue Trousers]

Spoorloos/The Vanishing. The original, any road up.

[Johnny Townmouse]

Ghosts of the Civil Dead

[Jerzy Bondov]

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade

[Kane Jones]

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade

In all the Indy movies, I love how Indiana Jones never actually wins.  Sure, he beats the baddies, but he never ever gets his prize/the artifact he's been chasing throughout the movie.

[Ignatius_S]

The Great Silence. One of the all-time great films.

Charley Varrick, which shares striking plot similarities to The Outfit; both came out the same year. The two films involve the Mob seeking revenge on one its banks being held up by small-time operatives – however, in The Outfit, Robert Duvall strikes back, whilst in the other, Varrick (the 'last of the independents', played by Walter Matthau) seeks to evade retribution from gangsters and, to a lesser extent, the law. Both are great films, but if I had to pick one it would be Charley Varrick, no question about it. According to Matthau, he initially turned Don Siegel down when asked to do the film, as he was dissatisfied with the dialogue – the response was 'Well, you can write dialogue, can't you?'
   

Difficult one. There is a big, glorious dance at the end with all the main characters/actors.

Which is preceded by Travis discovering the film world and accepted via an audition, which suggests a hopeful future. There's an argument that O Lucky Man! is coloured by Anderson's disillusionment in the change coming from politics, but still believed in personal revolution.

Personally, I think the main difficulty is that when films are in allegorical territory, they don't fit neatly into this kind of discussion.

Ghosts of the Civil Dead

Are there any goodies?

In all the Indy movies, I love how Indiana Jones never actually wins.  Sure, he beats the baddies, but he never ever gets his prize/the artifact he's been chasing throughout the movie.

Well, in the first one, he does but it ends up in a government warehouse and the 'powers that be' don't comprehend what they have.

With the second one, the stone is returned to the village from where it had been stolen from, which was what Indy was trying to do.

[graffic]

Lord of the Rings

They stole Saurans ring. If I'm not mistaken it was the elfs and men who turned up on Sauren's soil to wage war against him.

The orcs were victims in the battle, caught up between two opposing powers fighting and were using them to fight on their behalf. The Elfs, hobbits and men are very judgmental of Orcs in that film but there is no evidence they are intrinsically bad, they are perhaps just under a bad influence.

[Johnny Townmouse]

Which is preceded by Travis discovering the film world and accepted via an audition, which suggests a hopeful future. There's an argument that O Lucky Man! is coloured by Anderson's disillusionment in the change coming from politics, but still believed in personal revolution.

I think it's equal parts cynical and hopeful. Very difficult to come down on one side - at least for me. Although Pasolini also wanted Salo to finish with the cast having a party and dancing - but I'm not sure that would have erased what came before. I only found this out a couple of weeks ago and I do wonder if it would have made the film even more brilliant, or weakly softening the abject horror.

Ghosts of the Civil Dead
Are there any goodies?

For me the main character is the prison officer and the young guy who gets CUNT tattooed on his forehead. Both are the only moral barometers the film has, and both are victims of the system and the worst characters in the film. The young guy is spat out of the prison to become a sexual predator. He is the Anakin Skywalker of Ghosts...

[Pube]

Lord of the Rings
The orcs were victims in the battle, caught up between two opposing powers fighting and were using them to fight on their behalf. The Elfs, hobbits and men are very judgmental of Orcs in that film but there is no evidence they are intrinsically bad, they are perhaps just under a bad influence.

IIRC, the orcs are intrinsically evil in Tolkien's writings because they are elves who were taken by the previous dark lord and corrupted into orcs with magic, torture, and messed-up breeding. They have evil in their blood and are pretty much irredeemable. I don't think there's a single good orc in Tolkien's universe. This isn't explained in the films though. It probably should have been, because the heroes are supposed to be incredibly noble and yet they show no compassion for these guys who appear to be slave soldiers.

[Endicott]

Things To Do In Denver When You're Dead

Mean Streets

The World According to Garp

[Kane Jones]

With the second one, the stone is returned to the village from where it had been stolen from, which was what Indy was trying to do.

It's the whole 'fortune and glory' motif I'm thinking of.  Indy is fulfilling the mission partly for greedy purposes.  He even says something along the lines of "I understand its power now" to the Shaman of the village at the end.

[kidsick5000]

Billy Liar. Billy spends the rest of his life living up North and not shagging Julie Christie. Drab Evil triumphs.

No. Trepidation and fear wins.

Anway, the really shocking evil victory is
Arlington Road

[graffic]

IIRC, the orcs are intrinsically evil in Tolkien's writings because they are elves who were taken by the previous dark lord and corrupted into orcs with magic, torture, and messed-up breeding. They have evil in their blood and are pretty much irredeemable. I don't think there's a single good orc in Tolkien's universe. This isn't explained in the films though. It probably should have been, because the heroes are supposed to be incredibly noble and yet they show no compassion for these guys who appear to be slave soldiers.

Damn right. Aragorn's bloodthirsty enjoyment in slaying the Orcs undermines his portrayal as being superior to the Orcs. Gimli and Orland Bloom's little game in two towers about how many they can kill is quite callous.

[Sal Vicuso]

The friends of Eddie Coyle
Dog Day Afternoon
No country for old men
Traffic
Che
12 Monkeys

[Hangthebuggers]

Time bandits

The Thing - debatable, but the human's come off worst.

Get Carter

[Pube]

Damn right. Aragorn's bloodthirsty enjoyment in slaying the Orcs undermines his portrayal as being superior to the Orcs. Gimli and Orland Bloom's little game in two towers about how many they can kill is quite callous.

It is kind of implied in the films, in some ways. When Saruman creates his Uruks, we can take from that the idea that they are being bred for purpose and are probably incapable of being anything other than monsters. Then there's the orcs down in the mines of Moria. They're living down there with a fiery demon from hell that more-or-less leaves them alone because there's an unspoken understanding that they're on the same side.

Anyway, another film where the baddies win is Party Monster. It tries to turn real-life Drano-murderer and leg-chopper Michael Alig into a Frank N. Furter-like minor cult figure and even gives him his own theme tune by Felix Da Housecat. The film is actually less satirical of the Club Kids than the Club Kids themselves were. It's in love with their sleaze, snobbery and venality. It makes a virtue of being "fucked-up". Even Alig's eventual descent into cockroach-like addiction and the murder he commits are presented as just more examples of his glorious tragic decadence. Macauley Culkin portrays him as much more camp and girly than he really was. I suppose they wanted to make him a bit more fun and "fabulous", because the film is for people who wish they could have been there. When Alig is in prison at the end, he tells James St. James that prison really isn't so bad because he can get all the drugs and sex he wants there. The vacuous St. James is also a winner because they've adapted his book into a film.