Films where the baddies win

[Beil]

When I was young I thought Time Bandits had a downbeat ending, but the last time I saw it, it feels like Kevin is finally free from his irredeemably awful family, and as such actually wins.

"Mum, Dad, don't touch it. It's EVIL!"

[Famous Mortimer]

Zodiac

I'm watching the directors cut now on Blue Raymond. The joys of unemployment.

It's bloody brilliant, I think, and the blu-ray is absolutely packed to the rafters with quality special features.

[garbed_attic]

So, would that fantasy start at the store bombing, or just after when Sam's knocked out by the police guard in the van?

When he's knocked out, I'd suggest (working from memory). Only tentatively suggested, but I do feel that the air of unreality enters rather earlier than Sam being clamped down into the torture chair and the film has been filled with his escapist fantasies. The fact that the tryst in the bed so closely resembles the fluffy-white-cloud aesthetics of Sam's fantasy life, added to the fact that Jill is so suddenly feminized and softened, makes me suspect unreliable protagonist tainted view of events.

[El Unicornio, mang]

That scene does seem very dreamlike. Isn't he knocked out after the love scene though?

[Blumf]

Yep, I can buy that (for a dollar). The 'we're all in it together' scene at Sam's flat fits in there too, IIRC.

Back to the thread: Judge Dredd (either of them). He's a fascist enforcer for a police state, he's not the good guy, even if the perps aren't good either.

[ZoyzaSorris]

No. Trepidation and fear wins.

Anway, the really shocking evil victory is
Arlington Road

Dammit, I was scrolling through the thread hoping noone had got that one, a real hair on end moment. great film, doesn't seem to get much love.

[SteveDave]

It's bloody brilliant, I think, and the blu-ray is absolutely packed to the rafters with quality special features.

Indeed. The girlfriend & I spent one quiet Sunday morning watching every single grisly documentary on it a few weekends ago.

[Waking Life]

Zodiac benefits from being a real life whodunit, so the documentaries are of genuine interest (I don't care much for Making Ofs). That Arthur Leigh...

Although it is also a great film that is fantastically shot, thus looks pristine on blu-ray.

[mjwilson]

Kind of 'Cabin In The Woods' as well.  Sort of.  Up for debate, that one.  Who's up for it?

OK - there aren't any baddies in Cabin in the Woods.

[kidsick5000]

OK - there aren't any baddies in Cabin in the Woods.

There are, it's just that they're hardly in the film.
The people we think are baddies are actually goodies, protecting the planet from the old gods rising.
Old gods win

[Pepotamo1985]

It's bloody brilliant, I think, and the blu-ray is absolutely packed to the rafters with quality special features.

That's one of the best looking films I've ever seen - and the BR package is, as you say, tremendous. Almost justifies the purchase of a Blu-Ray player on its own merits, that  'un.

[mjwilson]

There are, it's just that they're hardly in the film.
The people we think are baddies are actually goodies, protecting the planet from the old gods rising.
Old gods win

My point is, I don't even think you can meaningfully say that the

Spoiler alert

old gods are baddies. They're just doing their thing. That's why Marty and, err, thingy allow them to rise - who's to say that the new system would be any worse than the current one, which requires the regular sacrifice of innocents?

[close]

[Canted_Angle]

Does Black Death count....the Christians win.

[Noodle Lizard]

Does Black Death count....the Christians win.

But doesn't that irritating kid end up conquering the world or something?

[Canted_Angle]

But doesn't that irritating kid end up conquering the world or something?

He pretty much goes mental and starts killing loads of innocent girls. I'm pretty sure that makes him the bad guy and he wins.

[Lisa Jesusandmarychain]

"Bad Teacher". I've explained why in the "films that are going to become classics, bub" thread, due to putting it in there by mistake. I've even spoliered a bit of it, which may seem a bit redundant, but there ya go (in full agreement with the 'threads that are fashioned entirely from spoilers thread).

Don't think the baddie actually 'wins' as such in "No Country For Old Men"

Spoiler alert

he staggers off into the distance in quite a bad way, with that bone sticking out of his broken arm and all, and his fate is uncertain

[close]

.

[phantom_power]

Surely in Brazil it is heavily implied if not completely overtly stated that Sam cracks under interrogation, which is why he goes off into his fantasy world. It doesn't make sense that the rest of it is in his mind. For one thing how would he know what the torture chamber looked like?

[garbed_attic]

Surely in Brazil it is heavily implied if not completely overtly stated that Sam cracks under interrogation, which is why he goes off into his fantasy world. It doesn't make sense that the rest of it is in his mind. For one thing how would he know what the torture chamber looked like?

Hmm I think it's possible that fantasy is encroaching before the torture though... there's that moment late in the film where Sam has gleefully got caught up in events, smashing through a roadblock, only to turn wrong and see one of the oppressive police drones as a human being, dying, on fire. Sam gets increasingly more manic and unhinged as the film progresses. My main reason for doubting the objective reality of the love scene is how closely it resembles one of Sam's fantasies and what an about-turn it represents in Jill's character. Plus (if I remember correctly) after she's been kidnapped/ arrested, just a wig and a gauzy cloth are left on the bed, as though the love scene Jill was just a hollow fantasy. I feel a bit awkward making this argument, as I will admit that it's more of an intuitive reading than anything else, but I do think it's the case that things become more and more unreal and hallucinogenic a fair while before the completely bat-shit insane stuff starts happening, which is why I think events are being filtered through Sam's viewpoint, which is becoming increasingly unhinged. (Or rather, the aesthetic of the film is experientially aligned with Sam's viewpoint... think of Gilliam's Fear and Loathing for example. Not much in the way of POV shots, but the whole warped, hallucinogenic vision is very much aligned with Thompson's own).

[phantom_power]

I think the stuff with Jill is just the love story being slightly hamfisted in its handling. He requires a love to be snatched away at the end so the plot is created to allow that to happen.

[Zetetic]

I can never remember the order of anything that happens after Sam's acceptance of the promotion (and I've had to turn to a plot summary on this occasion). Like gout_pony, I've always felt that it's all gone a bit odd by the time of the conciliation with Jill[nb]Which really does obliterate her already tenous character.[/nb] and even really in the scenes where Sam rather effortlessly rewrites Jill's records and walks out of the Ministry.

I don't think it's ultimately a defeat for Sam anyway. I suppose that doesn't stop it being a victory for the 'baddies'.

[neveragain]

Life of Brian - the baddie being religion obviously. And Chris Langham.

[Sexton Brackets Drugbust]

I can never remember the order of anything that happens after Sam's acceptance of the promotion (and I've had to turn to a plot summary on this occasion). Like gout_pony, I've always felt that it's all gone a bit odd by the time of the conciliation with Jill[nb]Which really does obliterate her already tenous character.[/nb] and even really in the scenes where Sam rather effortlessly rewrites Jill's records and walks out of the Ministry.

I don't think it's ultimately a defeat for Sam anyway. I suppose that doesn't stop it being a victory for the 'baddies'.

Yeah, I've always found the ending ambiguous; in a way, the fact that he's finally retreated entirely into his fantasy vision is a victory for Sam, as he's genuinely happier there and safe from the ministry. I've always felt it's what Gilliam believes is a perfectly sane reaction to such an insane world.

I think gout_pony's reading of the film is perfectly legitimate. Fantasy and reality bleed together increasingly throughout the film and what is real vs. what's imaginary isn't decisively clear.

[Gulftastic]

When I was young I thought Time Bandits had a downbeat ending, but the last time I saw it, it feels like Kevin is finally free from his irredeemably awful family, and as such actually wins.

"Mum, Dad, don't touch it. It's EVIL!"

Kevin also has a picture of the Bandits holding the time map, so I always like to think he uses it to find his way back to Sean Connery.