'Most Violent Game Ever' Causes Boy to Kill Friend (Here we go again)

[Bilko]

Oh god, just turned the tv on and the Wright Stuff is discussing Manhunt...

doesn't the lisping Lowry Turner make you wanna throttle the fucking TV and go out and murder someone...

i can see the headline.
Man goes on rampagee and kills 20
"I Blame it on the reactionary comments of Lowry Turner - she was pissing me RIGHT off"

Isn't it time Turner got herself mugged again.  It's around one year since her last mugging.


http://www.itv.com/news/1516509.html

His mother Giselle claimed her son's "inherently evil" murderer was "obsessed" with the game and called for it to be banned.

If the boy who murder her son was "inherently evil" he then was born with that behaviour.

[chand]

Playing Devil's advocate here, but isn't there potentially a huge psychological gap between merely watching something violent and 'playing' it? Computer games effectively require you to 'become' the do-er of the violence and react as they might - (most) adults have the necessary psychological faculties to treat this as an outlet for stress or a bit of a laugh or whatever and not take it seriously, but do kids?

I'm pretty sure he hasn't confused his life with the life of James Earl Cash from Manhunt. In Manhunt you play a guy who is thrust onto streets where EVERYONE is trying to kill you and you have to kill them first to survive. It's not a game about a kid from Leicester who kills someone as they rob them in a park for a laugh. It's not about killing random strangers or friends.

Actually, I only just noticed that in that BBC article they mention that he stole from him as well, which again was nothing like Manhunt.

[steevbishop]

Playing Devil's advocate here, but isn't there potentially a huge psychological gap between merely watching something violent and 'playing' it? Computer games effectively require you to 'become' the do-er of the violence and react as they might - (most) adults have the necessary psychological faculties to treat this as an outlet for stress or a bit of a laugh or whatever and not take it seriously, but do kids?

(Sold out on Play.com)
Having only seen the game being played at a mate's house, I could see Manhunt has quite a complex story behind it, where the protagonist has been placed against his will in a situation where he has to kill in order to survive, while providing material for his twisted captor's snuff videos. It places the murders in a completely different context. "You" are killing to survive the ordeal and set yourself free, whilst looking for revenge. The deaths are brutal because there's little to hand, and the director wants it that way. With a concept like that behind it, the murders are justified and as such can pass through censorship.

Many kids under 18 would be capable of understanding the story that's laid out to them, but also there would be those who have the freedom to vote, but couldn't understand, or don't have the mental capability to get the context of the game (or don't have it explained to them because they're not even playing it, just reading about it in the reactionary press). So the psychological arguement can swing both ways, and can't be presented quite as simply as that.

I was 13 when I saw Robocop, just a little older when I was enjoying the gore of Mortal Kombat, and I would've got the premise of Manhunter if it were available to me as an underage teen. I had the presence of mind not to act out violent, gory behaviour because I was aware of the real world consequences.

Those that make edgy content have the right to do so with the knowledge that there are regulations in place that censor where necessary and place a legal age limit and further advisory. It's not for the makers of Manhunt to worry about what happens if the game gets into the hands of an impressionable teenager.

(Damn you chand; good points well put, dude)

[steevbishop]

I don't think a reputable videogames company would ever dare take the risk of publishing a first-person murder game.

Wolfenstein?
Quake?
Unreal Tournament?
Medal of Honour?

Technically, not out-and-out murder games, and they too have their contexts, but you see my point.

[Rootin' Tootin' Raspberry]

games dont need violence man, yo get your kicks other ways

stop the violence dude

[steevbishop]

Stop the violence. Start taking care of your flock.
Pick on someone your own size. God's bigger than all of us...

[Rootin' Tootin' Raspberry]

yo dont bring steve coogan into this dude, he aint done nothin

its your violent games thats to blame

[TotalNightmare]

he is the crux...

if he hadn't had the game, would he have still done the act?

Possibly!

If not now, then later.

Parents are such cunts these days.

"My son is evil, he buys evil games, he steals from me, i didnt teach him about right or wrong because that is what school is for, i daren't tell my child about sex, that's evil. i just wanted to keep him happy so he wouldn't hit me... that's why i let him do anything he wants and i buy games and films for him, because he isn't 18 and i don't care enough to look at what a rating system is for these days."

to paraphrase Scream:

"games don't make people kill, they just make the kills more creative"

which is true to an extent, but then, i watch the news and don't want to go out and kill 'towel heads'

as a species, the human race is, by and large, the dumbest fucks on the planet...

i am in SUCH a bad mood today!

[steevbishop]

yo dont bring steve coogan into this dude, he aint done nothin

its your violent games thats to blame

You're right. I just went for the moment there, without thinking of the consequences. Steve Coogan has no place in this discussion, and I feel ashamed to have taken him somewhere he doesn't deserve to be. Please accept my heartfelt apologies, and also my insistence that I will no longer make violent games.

[Rootin' Tootin' Raspberry]

yo this aint a dress rehearsal dude, its like important and shit

[steevbishop]

yo this aint a dress rehearsal dude, its like important and shit

I'm just shittin' ya.
Look no further than here and here my good man. I was in full costume for those.

[Marcus Or Relius]

Stefan's mother described Leblanc, who confessed to police moments after the assault, as "inherently evil".

Well, what way does she want it? Is Leblanc inherently evil, or was he a nice normal lad who was inspired by the wicked wicked game? She can't have it both ways.

The parents of a boy who was murdered with a claw hammer by a friend have blamed a violent video game which the teenage killer was "obsessed" with....Following the hearing she said her son's killer had mimicked a game called Manhunt...

So from what I can gather, it was only the victim's mother who claimed the killer was influenced by Manhunt. I was under the impression that such a claim had been made by some expert or other, such as the investigating police officers, forensic psychologists or Simon Heffer.

[Still Not George]

Stefan's mother described Leblanc, who confessed to police moments after the assault, as "inherently evil".

Well, what way does she want it? Is Leblanc inherently evil, or was he a nice normal lad who was inspired by the wicked wicked game? She can't have it both ways.

Ask her that. Go on, ask her. Look, she's a parent, her sprog is dead, she needs to vent, this is fine as long as we don't actually take this shit seriously or let the 60s sellout hippy turds that run our country spoil things for the Playstation Generation. They had their escape, we have ours.

But if you really want an answer, the universal subconscious has provided me with this:

"But... but... he killed moi bayboi!"*

As an aside, if I even sniff a single post along the lines of "Well, if you had children you'd understand..." then I shall know Verbwhores is finally dead.




* Universal accent possessed by all of those whose brain is disengaged

[MojoJojo]

Playing Devil's advocate here, but isn't there potentially a huge psychological gap between merely watching something violent and 'playing' it? Computer games effectively require you to 'become' the do-er of the violence and react as they might - (most) adults have the necessary psychological faculties to treat this as an outlet for stress or a bit of a laugh or whatever and not take it seriously, but do kids?

It's an 18 though, innit?

The general pychological argument is that video games and video nasties both desensitize children to horrific acts of violence. But I've never been hugely convinced by this. Surely if children were sensitive to the violence before hand, the first time they played the game would be horrifying, and they wouldn't want to play it again?

I am fairly sure that even children are considerably abstracted from what even realistic games represent; to control the character on screen, they have to handle the abstraction of the controller buttons controlling the character on the screen, for example.

[hencole]

Its the end of July and the silly season is upon us. This will all blow over after they've managed to snap some celeb in the nude on some beach, somewhere.

[Make me smile]

So from what I can gather, it was only the victim's mother who claimed the killer was influenced by Manhunt. I was under the impression that such a claim had been made by some expert or other, such as the investigating police officers, forensic psychologists or Simon Heffer.

'I WARNED SOMEONE WOULD GET KILLED'

''These types of games are basically murder simulators.

"There are people being killed over here almost on a daily basis."

I would love to see his evidence for this.

I think the case of computer games has been well argued here already, but speaking as a leicester resident, i would love to know why there is no attention being paid to this comment, from the defendent himself:



LeBlanc admits to Stefan's murder, claiming he wanted to rob him to pay money owed to a gang

Oh yes, nevermind the terrible gang activity that is going to rip parts of the city like New Parks and where I live apart, lets focus on a fucking computer game.

However, i must just say, that however misguided the dead boy's parents are in their comments, I believe they are being wound up by the media with words being put in their mouths. They have suffered a terrible loss and shouldn't really be hauled over the coals for what they say at this time.

[steevbishop]

LeBlanc admits to Stefan's murder, claiming he wanted to rob him to pay money owed to a gang

Oh yes, nevermind the terrible gang activity that is going to rip parts of the city like New Parks and where I live apart, lets focus on a fucking computer game.

However, i must just say, that however misguided the dead boy's parents are in their comments, I believe they are being wound up by the media with words being put in their mouths. They have suffered a terrible loss and shouldn't really be hauled over the coals for what they say at this time.

Agreed, but it's not their reaction we're concerned about. (thanks for the link, BTW, it's interesting to know the history)

Thankfully, BBC News is attempting bi-partisanship with this article: Caution call on video game storm

Experts have warned against a knee-jerk reaction after the parents of a murdered teenager blamed his killer's obsession with a violent video game.

The parents of Stefan Pakeerah, 14, who was stabbed in Leicester, have called for the game Manhunt to be banned. Giselle Pakeerah said her son's confessed killer, Warren Leblanc, 17, had mimicked behaviour in Manhunt.

Industry bodies have said it is wrong to blame the game - which has an 18 certificate - but retailer Dixons has already taken it off the shelves.

It is not the first time "shoot-em-up" video games have been blamed for triggering a violent response. Relatives of Columbine High School victims filed a lawsuit against game makers after it was claimed teenage killers Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were influenced by games including Doom.
And German teenager Robert Steinhaeuser, who shot dead 13 teachers and two fellow pupils before turning the gun on himself, was reportedly an avid fan of the game Counter-Strike.

Manhunt, developed by Edinburgh-based Rockstar North, is unusual in that players get higher points for inflicting a more grisly death.
It was banned six months ago in New Zealand because of concerns over its high level of violence.

Stefan died after Leblanc beat him with a claw hammer and stabbed him repeatedly with a knife.

But Mark Eyles, senior lecturer in computer games at Portsmouth University, said it was wrong to leap to the conclusion the game was to blame.

"It's an easy target," he told BBC News Online, saying it came down to parents to ensure their children played suitable games.
"If you have an extremely violent game that has been designed specifically for adults then that's who should be playing it - it's not appropriate for children," he said.

"It raises questions about what sort of society we want. Do we want to ban everything that is violent because it may be that children would get hold of it? Or do you want a society where people are responsible for themselves and for their children?"

He said there was no definitive research linking bloodthirsty games such as Manhunt with violent responses in players. The game, which has an 18 rating, gives extra points for grisly killings
"I don't think it's going to drive anyone out to go and start murdering people - not unless they are already thinking along those lines," he said.

But US-based lawyer Jack Thompson, a leading campaigner against the sale of violent games, is set to take up the fight having been contacted by Mrs Pakeerah. He is convinced of the direct link between increasing numbers of killings by teenagers and games like Manhunt.

Mr Thompson told BBC News Online: "It encourages you to enter into the notion that acting in this way is appropriate. This is the problem with interactive violence - you enter into it as a participant much more than in a movie theatre."

He said neurological studies showed teenagers' brains processed stimuli from games differently to those of adults.
"These types of games are basically murder simulators. There are people being killed over here almost on a daily basis."

But British Board of Film Classification (BBFC) spokeswoman said banning violent games was "using a very large sledgehammer to crack a very small nut".
A statement said: "For a game to be banned the BBFC would have to have very clear evidence that it was a cause of potential harm. There is no evidence playing video games results in violent behaviour. There is evidence that violent people are attracted to violent material. Manhunt is available throughout Europe without any restrictions. The UK has one of the most restrictive regulatory regimes."

The Entertainment and Leisure Software Publishers' Association, the video game industry body, said: "We sympathise enormously with the family and parents of Stefan Pakeerah.
"However, we reject any suggestion or association between the tragic events and the sale of the video game Manhunt."

Rockstar North has not yet commented on the furore surrounding its game.

Again, I challenge any other news outlet to fairly address this side of the debate. Well, I guess Channel 4 News would.

[steevbishop]

I texted a pal of mine earlier, who's rather a fan of Manhunt, and asked what he made of all of this. He replied saying he had no idea what was going on, he'd been away from the TV for most of the week.

I told him to stop being a dick, and buy a paper. Which he did. He replied a little later, after reading it, and said "Dude, weak". Then I asked him what paper he'd bought...

"I decided to go for the Mail cos they at least usually do their research. I'm so unbelievably pissed off about this, it's total bullcrap," he said.

...

I decided to go for the Mail cos they at least usually do their research
I DECIDED TO GO FOR THE MAIL COS THEY USUALLY DO THEIR RESEARCH
I DECIDED TO GO FOR THE MAIL COS THEY USUALLY DO THEIR RESEARCH~!!!!1!!

Fuck on a stick!

[Frinky]

Well, Game have withdrawn all copies from the shelves as "A Mark Of Respect" and staff aren't allowed to comment on the situation any further than "we have no stock", which seems a lot more clever-like than Dixon's responce (although as an ex-DSG-er, it hardly suprises me).

Who gets lots of free copies of Manhunt then?

Mee-ee!

[Munday's Chylde]

Playing Devil's advocate here, but isn't there potentially a huge psychological gap between merely watching something violent and 'playing' it? Computer games effectively require you to 'become' the do-er of the violence and react as they might - (most) adults have the necessary psychological faculties to treat this as an outlet for stress or a bit of a laugh or whatever and not take it seriously, but do kids?

It certainly makes sense from an armchair psychology point of view but I'd still wager that far from a huge psychological gap the differences between pressing buttons on a controller to negotiate a third person character through an already pre-set route and pressing play on  your dvd player to watch a third person character act out a pre-recorded performance are neglibable at best.

With regards to the mother of the victim I would reckon, settling myself uncomfortably into the psychology armchair myself, that this is very much an attempt to find blame and reason behind something so reasonless. I guess grievings even harder when there's no proper explanation. It's a sad shame that people so unconnected to the families are being dragged down into the guilt mire with them. Someone wrote that game. Someone provided voices. Someone animated. Someone marketed. And now potenially their final result is going to brushed under the carpet forever because of the butterfly effect - which is a shame.

If the killer himself had laid the blame on the game then I'd be happier to accept the story (and I am not in the slightest anti-censorship) but as it stands we're left with guesswork, heresay and a broken hearted mother looking for solid logic where there is none.

[king mob]

Its not just Game thats removed their copies, by the looks of it pretty much everywhere have (well in Bristol anyhow) even though people are trying to get copies.
HMV seem to be the only place that still have any copies left & those will probably go soon.

The Bristol Evening Post were outside HMV asking passer by opinion on the game, they were asking balanced questions such as "how do you feel about this evil game?", to which the only reply i could muster was "how do know its evil?".


Don't think that's going to make the paper somehow.

[Rubbish Monkey]

And that elephant thing is about some guy selling T-shirts on the internet featuring tube maps with pictures of animals drawn over the lines.

I'm sure someone put a site that did that in the cool things thread once.

http://www.animalsontheunderground.com/

WH smiths are said to be debating the issue on the selling issue. Seems only Dixions (which own game and pc world) have announced offically

lets have yet another quality news item on it while i'm here
http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?command=newPage&nodeId=132383&contentPK=10673916

Que scary music and deep voiced voice over bloke.......

The front cover carries the mutilated face of a masked killer and warnings about blood and guts.

But this is no under-the-counter snuff movie or X-rated horror flick - it's called Manhunt, a computer game so violent it has been banned in New Zealand.

Yet it is freely available in high street stores across Britain - with an 18 certificate - and was yesterday linked to the murder of 14-year-old Stefan Pakeerah in a city park.

[king mob]

I notice the kid is from Braunstone, anyone who knows Leicester knows what a fantastic crime free area that is.

Please let some real news happen so this story dies.

[Purple Tentacle]

Que scary music and deep voiced voice over bloke.......

But this is no under-the-counter snuff movie or X-rated horror flick - it's called Manhunt, a computer game so violent it has been banned in New Zealand.

New Zealand!! Quick, call in the accountants, we've got a disaster on our hands!

You can't fuck prostitutes in GTAIII in Australia, Rockstar had to take that out.

You can refuse entry to political refugees, keeping them on shit-infested boats because Australia is too full up with people to let them in, though, so that's alright.

[El Unicornio, mang]

Yet again it's people looking for scapegoats to excuse their own actions. I've been playing violent video games since I was about 8, and I've never killed anyone. What's their excuse?

That said, I would be willing to concede that video games can influence people. I remember when I was a lad playing Double Dragon for hours on end and afterwards thinking "I'd like to go around like one of the Double Dragon blokes, with big blonde bouffant hair and a snazzy blue waistcoat, kicking in any guys who get in my way", but it was also easy for me to comprehend that doing such a thing was wrong (and that I'd have got my arse kicked), and I was only about 10.



If a teenager doesn't know that killing someone for kicks is wrong then there's a much deeper problem than a video game. I can certainly understand someone playing a game like Vice City for 8 hours straight and feeling reality and fiction blur for a while afterwards (I've certainly been disorientated after playing the game) but it takes a highly unstable person to then go and murder people, and unless they've lived their entire life in a box, there's always going to be an influence which can be blamed (be it TV, films, games, books, the bible.....living your whole life in a box)
I saw a documentary once which said that murders were often triggered by something as seemingly innocent as a billboard of a beautiful woman, the sight of something 'unattainable' to your average weirdo being enough to provoke homicide.

[Purple Tentacle]

When I was playing Splinter Cell rather heavily last year I found myself avoiding pools of light beneath street lamps, and considering the tactical merits of shooting out lamps that lay ahead.

Also, after heavy GTAIII'ing, I find my gaze wandering to the doorhandles of nifty sports cars... but as The Unicorn says, this is all very different.

[Jemble Fred]

And d'you remember when Andy Pandy used to come on?

[Munday's Chylde]

I saw a documentary once which said that murders were often triggered by something as seemingly innocent as a billboard of a beautiful woman, the sight of something 'unattainable' to your average weirdo being enough to provoke homicide.

That's ridiculous. Billboards can't be that expensive.

[Cheese Arse H Christ]

can we call the new law to ban this sicko shit 'Giselle's Law' please

[Kendo Nagasaki]

And d'you remember when Andy Pandy used to come on?

If memory serves, he used to come on loopy-loo did'nt he?