Quitting the English Defence League

[Dusty Gozongas]

A little surprised to see no mention of this either in this forum or T'issues to hand, although I've been lax at thread following for some time and may have missed any relevant comments.

If you haven't seen it, I'm referring to Quitting the English Defence League: When Tommy Met Mo, a 45 minute BBC piece on the bloke many dismiss as a Nazi and his recent change of direction.  Worth a watch and available for a few more days before it falls off iPlayer.

When it comes to balanced documentary making, this is an excellent example of how good the BBC can be. No shock tactics, no judgemental stance taken at the end of it and best of all no UAF.

^{note to self: you will be drunk later, so try not to bite[nb]For future reference, why not avoid starting threads like this on dole day. You're only a millionaire for a few hours you buffoon![nb]Well I'd avoided the doc until just now 'cos I was expecting a hatchet job and felt the need to mention it before it expires.[nb]You're already a bit tipsy aren't you...[/nb][/nb][/nb]}

[Borboski]

Tommy Robinson - on the strength of his actual statements - was often quite lucid.  I remember him on Newsnight talking to Paxman explaining very calmly that the sort of views and anxieties he expressed where generally felt on the communities of Bolton, Oldham etc.  Not to say that I liked him or thought him an intellectual heavyweight.


38mins in - Majid of Quilliam challenges Mo, pretty interesting.

[Borboski]

Yeah, Mo Ansar is one of the rent a gobs that you get on the sunday morning chat shows, a bit like Anjem Choudry.

EDIT: Watching this he at least comes across as a nice guy.

EDIT: Albeit a nice guy who isn't sure whether it's ok to stone people to death.

[Borboski]

Meanwhile everything I read about the Quilliam Foundation impresses me.

http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/

[Dusty Gozongas]

edit:

comments are encouraged

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I thought it was quite obvious all along he wasn't a Nazi or anything close, it's interesting actually that rather than becoming a demagogue at a sniff of power and influence he appears to have learned a huge amount through meeting different people and learning about different cultures, and stands in a much better place out of it. I'm really glad. I wish he hadn't caused all the fucking marches and violence though, the fucking prick.

No doubt the EDL all think he's a weak traitor now.

[CaledonianGonzo]

Meanwhile everything I read about the Quilliam Foundation impresses me.

http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/

Read this then:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/aug/04/quilliam-foundation-list-alleged-extremism

[CaledonianGonzo]

I thought it was quite obvious all along he wasn't a Nazi or anything close, it's interesting actually that rather than becoming a demagogue at a sniff of power and influence he appears to have learned a huge amount through meeting different people and learning about different cultures, and stands in a much better place out of it. I'm really glad. I wish he hadn't caused all the fucking marches and violence though, the fucking prick.

So he's renounced his Islamophobia then, has he?  A mere week before the announcement of his 'conversion' he didn't seem like a man out to make amends:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/04/tommy-robinson-edl_n_4042685.html

[Dusty Gozongas]

So he's renounced his Islamophobia then, has he?

Think on.

i'm actually calling you out on that btw. tommy nazi robinson? u rkn?

[Dusty Gozongas]

I wish he hadn't caused all the fucking marches and violence though, the fucking prick.

I've always been very very happy that he did, prick or not[nb]Disclaimer: Not only the marches but also the violence. Apologies in advance to anybody who disagrees with violence.[/nb].

[Dusty Gozongas]

Tommy Robinson - on the strength of his actual statements - was often quite lucid.

There's the measure of a person right there.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I've always been very very happy that he did, prick or not[nb]Disclaimer: Not only the marches but also the violence. Apologies in advance to anybody who disagrees with violence.[/nb].

Here is the obvious point where you explain why you think seemingly incredible thing

[Treguard of Dunshelm]

He's not stupid. He's well aware of how to speak and behave in front of a camera, but I know personally several people who have met him when the media aren't present and it's a very different story.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

What, you mean a political figure acted duplicitously? Fuck off!

[Treguard of Dunshelm]

Thanks for pointing out what I was clearly implying.

[Dusty Gozongas]

Here is the obvious point where you explain why you think seemingly incredible thing

Possibly..

[Famous Mortimer]

So he's renounced his Islamophobia then, has he?  A mere week before the announcement of his 'conversion' he didn't seem like a man out to make amends:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/04/tommy-robinson-edl_n_4042685.html

Absolutely.

The reason he's had his conversion to normal politics (or whatever he's saying now) is that people stopped him on the streets. The turning point may well have been Sheffield, where 2000 or so people on the UAF demo stopped him and his thugs from laying a wreath on the War Memorial. But it's just been people all over the country who've made him (and others) realise that they're not going to be able to spread hate uncontested, not the Quillam Foundation.

If the EDL had grown like he wanted to, we wouldn't be having this conversation now, as this show would never have happened. He's a failure.

[CaledonianGonzo]

It's an attempt to position himself in the mainstream and make himself look more reasonable without shifting his views even a fraction.

Think on.
i'm actually calling you out on that btw. tommy nazi robinson? u rkn?

Perhaps not a Nazi in the uniforms and goose-stepping sense, but definitely a far-right leopard that hasn't changed his spots.

Let me also call you out on +ing Borboski for his passing comparison of Mo Ansar to Anjem Chaudry.  Whit?

[Borboski]

Read this then:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/aug/04/quilliam-foundation-list-alleged-extremism

I think the Quilliam Foundation is right to question other Islamic groups.  What's wrong with that?

[CaledonianGonzo]

"Question"? 

Or smear as terrorists?

[Borboski]

It's an attempt to position himself in the mainstream and make himself look more reasonable without shifting his views even a fraction.

Perhaps not a Nazi in the uniforms and goose-stepping sense, but definitely a far-right leopard that hasn't changed his spots.

Let me also call you out on +ing Borboski for his passing comparison of Mo Ansar to Anjem Chaudry.  Whit?

Well, as you can see as I watched the show I edited my comments as Mo Ansar didn't come across as too bad at all.  Anjem Choudry is certainly much more on the gob shite spectrum.

However, the show itself and passing google of Mo Ansar reveals some troubling things.

- Mo is ultimately completely unable to balance a liberal or modern interpretation of Islam with some personal important values not least of which is presumably the Quran and Hadiths are untouchable, or literally the word of God.
- This leads Mo to some extremely worrying views, particularly that he can't condemn stoning of people for minor crimes, slavery, or cutting peoples hands off.
- Ultimately this is a problem in some instances for dialogue. At the end of the show they are having a meeting and people are in agreement.  Tommy mentions specifically reforming the Quran, having preface etc to be very clear that parts of the book shouldn't be taken literally.  Obviously one of the audience members blows up, she's furious that someone would even suggest such a thing.  The two Muslims from Quilliam however are relaxed about this principle, they basically agree.  Now - how do you engage with people who don't, I think essentially when you accept you can't raise Quranic literalism with some people as a problem you infantilising them.

Anyway:
- He tweeted Tom Holland, asking - without irony - If slaves are treated justly, with full rights, and no oppression whatsoever... why would anyone object, Tom?

https://homoeconomicusnet.wordpress.com/2013/03/10/mohammed-ansar-on-islam-and-slavery-poverty-within-oic/

- As Harry's Place point out, he's very close to Hibz-ut-Tahir types, endorsing their views on homosexuality, recommending HT events, and in response to someone tweeting "A speaker from Hizb ut Tahrir, I believe they call for an Islamic caliphate", he replies "Each to their own right?".

- He describes the HT spokesperson as '...usually very good.', Taji Mustata (I should say more recently I've stopped paying attention to HT, esp in the UK).

It was interesting though, I think individually he is drawn to liberal ideas - although clearly looking for self-promotion and I think Tommy was completely right to not allow him into the room for his press conference.  Ultimately he didn't think Mo Ansar was the right contact for his own agenda (also some self-promotion).

I also thought at the end of the show, as a piece of TV, Tommy had learnt a lot and changed his view, Mo Ansar didn't seem to have learnt anything.

[Hank_Kingsley]

When you join you get a crap wallet, one furry badge, one metal badge, and information on their secret greetings. It's really not worth £50 a year.

[Borboski]

"Question"? 

Or smear as terrorists?

I don't think they are smearing people as terrorists; my understanding is that they take quite a forensic approach to reviewing the statements and aims of different organisations.  The East London Mosque is the perfect example for inviting along people with very extreme views to give talks, presumably while also positioning itself as a liberal/reformist/lovely institution.

[Replies From View]

When you join you get a crap wallet, one furry badge, one metal badge, and information on their secret greetings. It's really not worth £50 a year.

DING

[CaledonianGonzo]

I don't think they are smearing people as terrorists; my understanding is that they take quite a forensic approach to reviewing the statements and aims of different organisations.  The East London Mosque is the perfect example for inviting along people with very extreme views to give talks, presumably while also positioning itself as a liberal/reformist/lovely institution.

So the Quilliam Foundation - former extremists themselves - get to judge who should and shouldn't be allowed to speak.  Great.

In the meantime, Tommy Robinson's views are not so much forensically analysed or challenged as given a bit of an airbrushing. 

[Hank_Kingsley]

DING

WOG

[Borboski]

They're an independent think tank?  They wear their values quite openly.

If it turned out the Board were in other meetings agreeing that women shouldn't be allowed to drive or gay chaps should be stoned, then the Government shouldn't be listening to them.

They aren't Inayat Bungawala which I think we can all be grateful for.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

It's an attempt to position himself in the mainstream and make himself look more reasonable without shifting his views even a fraction.

But he's now just A Man, one no-one will pay attention to. The only places he'll be positioning himself will be on the sofa in front of the TV watching people who still matter.

I could be wrong and he could be a regular on talk shows for years to come, but I doubt it. If that does happen then at least he isn't leading gangs of thugs around our towns and cities vandalising, beating people up and making British life that bit more dismal.

[NoSleep]

I see Borboski's insinuating against muslims once again. I hope the pay is sufficient.

[Sony Walkman Prophecies]

What was the one earlier in the week where they were arguing over whether those white girls put into sex slavery by a load of muslims were motivated to do so by Islam?

That really was one of the worst examples of 'starting out with a conclusion and working backwards to find the premises' I've ever seen.