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March 28, 2024, 12:47:22 PM

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"Banksy Unmasked"

Started by JJJJH, August 08, 2004, 08:10:29 PM

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Catalogue Trousers

Sorry, but Banksy is an obnoxious, smug, unoriginal little tit.

Ciarán2

Quote from: "Catalogue Trousers"Sorry, but Banksy is an obnoxious, smug, unoriginal little tit.

I think that's why I like him!

Actually, it COULD be that I'm foreign, so when I visit London I'm surprised and delighted to see the graffiti that abounds there. I like graffiti anyway, but I especially like the funny stuff. Banksy's is funny I think - they seem to comment in a way on the modern world. Very simple little paintings like the policemen kissing, the girl hugging the bomb and so on. I like his infiltration of art galleries. He's a dadaist really isn't he? I suppose there are thousands more like him, but you know. Fair play to them. I think they make the city (London) a more interesting place.

Carlos Tevez

Quote from: "Catalogue Trousers"Sorry, but Banksy is an obnoxious, smug, unoriginal little tit.

Yeah, Banksy's for 15 year old boys.

Oscar

Quote from: "Catalogue Trousers"Sorry, but Banksy is an obnoxious, smug, unoriginal little tit.
Yes, but so is Paris Hilton. If the tits of this world want to spend their time ridiculing and tormenting one another then that means the rest of us don't have to worry.
I think this system could really work in all forms of media. Imagine if all the crap comedians spent a few hours a week ridiculing one another and not just making a few sarcastic comments on game shows, but really setting out to humiliate one other, destroying each others' careers, we could all fuck off and leave them to it.
In fact if all the mediocre, smug twats of the world could create an entire sub-culture of mild terrorist snidey acts towards one another, then those with actual talent could be left alone to sort out the real culture that we all engage with.
Yes, I have a dream.

edit: Although I quite like discovering some Banksy art somewhere, or just some well executed graffitti, it brightens the place up.

Catalogue Trousers

Ciaran wrote:

QuoteHe's a dadaist really isn't he?

No. He'd like to be, but sadly he's spiritually much closer to Rik from The Young Ones - humourless humour and unimaginative "smash-the-State-oo-aren't-I-controversial-and-daring" tripe.

terminallyrelaxed

Theres a new one in Exmouth Market in Clerkenwell, with his startling vision and social comment he has spray painted a cafe customer (sitting at a table) onto the closed shutters of a cafe. Oh the irony.

I do quite like the more poignant ones, but I'd prefer if he'd go for quality not quantity.

Carlos Tevez

Ooooh, Paris Hilton. What a tough target!

Santa's Boyfriend

I love Banksy's work.  If anything he's become too famous, and people who really should be condemning his work are now saying they love it.  I love the Paris Hilton stunt, it's great.  I honestly think he's one of the most interesting and thought-provoking artists working today - which is more than can be said for anyone in the Saachi collection.

This piece appeared in Bristol recently, directly opposite the council offices:



It's not exactly his best work, but it created huge discussion about whether to keep it or not.  They conducted a poll of local residents and 95% said they wanted it to stay.  In a way it's sad that he seems to have become so accepted, which is why I'm glad he's still doing stuff that catches people by suprise.

Here's the big version you can read:  http://www.banksy.co.uk/cuttings/images/metro_scan_large.jpg

Ciarán2

Quote from: "Catalogue Trousers"Ciaran wrote:

QuoteHe's a dadaist really isn't he?

No. He'd like to be, but sadly he's spiritually much closer to Rik from The Young Ones - humourless humour and unimaginative "smash-the-State-oo-aren't-I-controversial-and-daring" tripe.

That's all the dadaists were doing. Well, no, from my understanding dadaism was about making "art" answearble to a populus - about taking the piss out of the acclaimed, "classic" artworks. So the moustache on the Mona Lisa and so on. The dadaists were saying (I think), "all this art is well and good but we're a world at war!"

So maybe, Banksy is more of a Situationist. The situationists (and again, I'm open to correction here) wanted to make everyday life artistic. Not banal, but a series of events, of manifactured situations, which they hoped would shock and surprise people out of complacency.

I don't mind the Rik (from The Young Ones)s of this world really. It would be a pity if the spot on satire of anarchistic, right-on students became the only way of thinking about youth culture, or the radicalism of youth. That would really be to roll over like a puppy wouldn't it? And it's not much of an analysis - "oh they're a bit like Rim out of the Young Ones" is it? I mean there seems to be no possibility for radicalism there.

In my view, Banksy's art works or fails depending on whether it makes me laugh or makes me think about something for a second, or simply looks pretty. Not necessarily world-shaking stuff, but there you go.

Banksy puts me in mind of Julian Opie for some reason. I think it's because Opie exhibits in public spaces. He's got a piece outside the Irish Museum of Modern Art based on traffic signs. He has exhibited in airports and so on (he's designed record sleeves for Blur too which is another thing he shares with Banksy).

Compare and contrast time! Here's a Banksy piece I really like...



And here's something by Julian Opie...



Both very straightforward/ bleeding-obvious, but I dunno, they're just pretty. Also you can easily identify the artist by them. And they're things you just spot as you walk down the street. And they're the kind of thing that makes you think "I could do that!!", which is a great thing, makes me want to draw too.

Marv Orange

the picture of paraide is on the wall the israelis built in gaza

(ithink it was gaza)

Ciarán2

Quote from: "Sef"Ooooh, Paris Hilton. What a tough target!

I think Paris Hilton is a tough target, actually. It's very easy to consider her beneath contempt (and actually, I'm coming around to her but that's another story). The thing is, she is representative of something: the Heat Magazine/ Big Brother/ atkins diet/ 24 hour rolling celebrity news cutlure we find ourselves in. Her rise has been so insidious that she does seem "harmless" or an easy target, but perhaps that's the point in a prank like this. It's a reminder. I mean you could say Comedy Chat picks on easy targets in challenging the likes of Alan Carr and Jimmy Carr, but the other option would be to leave it be and think oneself above it in some unspoken way. But it must be spoken about. And it's a very difficult thing to talk about. So I think Banksy makes a good go of it in that regard. His Paris Hilton prank is quite funny, and I certainly don't despise the girl. He may have picked on Hillary Duff or Ronan Keating. The problem is the easy targets have become non-targets, and any possibility for criticising them has fallen foul of the "oh that's an easy target" brigade. So the crap proliferates.

Ciarán2

Quote from: "Marv Orange"the picture of paraide is on the wall the israelis built in gaza

(ithink it was gaza)

Yep. And some people will think that's twee, but I think it's great.

Catalogue Trousers

Now y'see, Santa's Boyfriend, stuff like that graffito opposite the Council Offices (woo, daring) gets the following reaction from me: as a sort-of large-scale newspaper cartoon gag, it's okay.

As art, let alone "terrorism",  of any sort, it ain't worth a pig's burp.

Ciarán2

Quote from: "Catalogue Trousers"Now y'see, Santa's Boyfriend, stuff like that graffito opposite the Council Offices (woo, daring) gets the following reaction from me: as a sort-of large-scale newspaper cartoon gag, it's okay.

As art, let alone "terrorism",  of any sort, it ain't worth a pig's burp.

I think it takes its resonance and meaning from where it is positioned. Which is, I think, a crucial aspect of art and an often overlooked one.

Catalogue Trousers

In which case, I look forward to Banksy doing one of his hilarious "fuck the pigs" jobbies on the side of a police station. During its opening hours.

Santa's Boyfriend

Quote from: "Ciarán"I think it takes its resonance and meaning from where it is positioned. Which is, I think, a crucial aspect of art and an often overlooked one.

Agreed - it does boggle the mind to think how he put it there without anyone noticing.  Although I must say I agree that the term "Art Terrorist" is a ridiculous one.  And why can't people get their heads around the idea of something being art and graffitti at the same time?

Catalogue Trousers

Quoteit does boggle the mind to think how he put it there without anyone noticing

Doing it at the dead of night, presumably with helpers to hold the ladder and hand £10 notes to any occasional passers-by so that they'd look the other way. If indeed they could be arsed about something so desperately trivial.

Santa's Boyfriend

Quote from: "Catalogue Trousers"
Quoteit does boggle the mind to think how he put it there without anyone noticing

Doing it at the dead of night, presumably with helpers to hold the ladder and hand £10 notes to any occasional passers-by so that they'd look the other way. If indeed they could be arsed about something so desperately trivial.

First of all, it's fucking high up, yet at the same time just above eye level for the padestrian walking over the bridge next to it.  Secondly, it's hard to believe that he didn't get noticed at all - that street is always busy.  I suppose he would have done it very quickly though, but the size of ladder needed to get up there would be something of a dead giveaway and would have taken time to set up.

My Giddy Aunt

Does art have to always be daring to be good? I dont think so.

Just cos he uses graffiti doesnt mean everything he does has to be controversial.

rudi

Quote from: "Catalogue Trousers"In which case, I look forward to Banksy doing one of his hilarious "fuck the pigs" jobbies on the side of a police station. During its opening hours.

How would getting purposely arrested be more 'radical', rather than simply 'stupid'?

Would you rather he did nothing? Is it the scale of his assumed stance that bothers you?

"Unless he's going to actually paint on Tony Blair's face, I'm not interested, the cowardly prick."

Ciarán2

Quote from: "Santa's Boyfriend"And why can't people get their heads around the idea of something being art and graffitti at the same time?

Because it is a relatively new idea. Only a few decades old, probably. Fair play to you for finding it so obvious, but it is something that has to be struggled with to some extent.

Earlier in the thread, i think you mentioned a newspaper piece which (you thought unhelpfully) asked the question "Is Banksy an artist or a criminal?" And you rightly suggest that he is both. I agree. But it's not such a bleeding obvious idea.

The question behind the newspaper's question is, I think, "Does the aesthetic, or artistic value (such as there is, and this is debatable) take precedence over the more clear-cut criminality of the pieces, and if so, why?" That's a complicated question. Would me vandalising the real Mona Lisa be art or crime? Is graffit per se criminal or is it only criminal is certain regards? When the Taliban blew up those Buddhist sculptures - was that art is some sense (as well as being, you know, the Taliban doing what they do)? Was the IRA's bombing of the Nelson monument in Dublin city in 1966 an artistic act in some regard? It certainly said something. It forced people to think. Was it justifiable?

So I think there are lots and lots of things to be considered here. Would the people who voted to keep Banksy's graffiti in place have felt the same way about everyday vandalism on their own property? And if not, why not? Because Banksy has a certain cultural caché, or because his work is simply superior, or because the council office is not their property? I think Banksy's odd position as artist and criminal poses interesting questions about property, art, and so on.

There was a great piece of art/graffiti in Kilbarrack ion Dublin for years. During  the World Cup in 1990, Ireland beat Romania on penalties and the image of Pat Bonner's penalty save is still etched on the memory of any Irish person old enough to remember it. The week after that game, a very elaborate and impressive graffito appeared on a shelter in Kilbarrack train station on Dublin's northside - a fairly run down area at the time. A big debate was had about whether the graffito should stay or go, and it was decided to keep it. It was very popular and was a fantastic piece of folk art. However, and this for me is the really interesting bit, about 5 years later someone sprayed the tag "ANTO 9T5" over it and there was outrage. As if it would be one thing for the council to tear it down, but for one of their own to destroy art in this way was unforgiveable. But really, I think it says something very interesting about folk art. It's beyond protection, or canonisation really. It's always outside the system, always slightly offensive. The image of Pat Bonner had changed its relevance and meaning and had to be destroyed. And the manner of its destruction was appropriate.

humanleech

Quote from: "Ciarán"
But it must be spoken about.

Part Chimp

Quote from: "Ciarán""oh they're a bit like Rim out of the Young Ones"

*snigger*

I love the Dada movement, and agree Banksy is working in roughly the same sphere as the dadaists. Part of what makes him great is the "how-did-he-do-that" factor, which is absent in a lot of modern "pranks" of this type. The Paris Hilton stunt, whether too obvious a target or not, is impressive just for the sheer amount of CDs he doctored without anyone noticing. Same with the Bristol thing - a high "how-did-he-do-that" factor there.

If you look at a show like Time Trumpet, 10 or 15 years ago we would all have been impressed at the technical trickery involved, but now a spotty 14 year old could knock most of it out on his computer in about 5 minutes. So kudos for Banksy for actually managing to add a little gobsmakery to the modern art world.

Carlos Tevez

Quote from: "Ciarán"
Quote from: "Sef"Ooooh, Paris Hilton. What a tough target!

I think Paris Hilton is a tough target, actually. It's very easy to consider her beneath contempt (and actually, I'm coming around to her but that's another story). The thing is, she is representative of something: the Heat Magazine/ Big Brother/ atkins diet/ 24 hour rolling celebrity news cutlure we find ourselves in. Her rise has been so insidious that she does seem "harmless" or an easy target, but perhaps that's the point in a prank like this. It's a reminder. I mean you could say Comedy Chat picks on easy targets in challenging the likes of Alan Carr and Jimmy Carr, but the other option would be to leave it be and think oneself above it in some unspoken way. But it must be spoken about. And it's a very difficult thing to talk about. So I think Banksy makes a good go of it in that regard. His Paris Hilton prank is quite funny, and I certainly don't despise the girl. He may have picked on Hillary Duff or Ronan Keating. The problem is the easy targets have become non-targets, and any possibility for criticising them has fallen foul of the "oh that's an easy target" brigade. So the crap proliferates.

I think you're reading too much into it; I think he just doesn't know any better and knows his demographic.

sproggy

Quote from: "Santa's Boyfriend"
Quote from: "Ciarán"I think it takes its resonance and meaning from where it is positioned. Which is, I think, a crucial aspect of art and an often overlooked one.

Agreed - it does boggle the mind to think how he put it there without anyone noticing.  Although I must say I agree that the term "Art Terrorist" is a ridiculous one.  And why can't people get their heads around the idea of something being art and graffitti at the same time?

There are rumours that some pieces are comissioned, how true this is I don't know, but he must be making some money to pull off this latest CD stunt.

Catalogue Trousers

rudi wrote:

QuoteWould you rather he did nothing? Is it the scale of his assumed stance that bothers you?

All that I'm asking is that any artist has a bit of guts and the courage of their convictions. Yes, Banksy should be willing to take the risk of being arrested or at least fined, otherwise all he's doing is the equivalent of being a faceless coward in a mob throwing a bottle.

And re that "lovers' triangle" piece - one, no it's still not brave, two, I don't for a moment believe that certain people weren't bribed to "ignore" him doing it, three, its positioning is hardly a feat of genius and pin-point calculation.

The sad truth is, Banksy isn't a Dadaist. He has none of the joy or humaneness of the best Dadaists, nor even their sense of humour. He's a self-publicist and that's all. A Malcolm McClaren of graffiti, desperately trying to convince us that he's more shocking, brave, or influential than he truly is.

And, as a cheap shot, I personally reckon that Tony Blair loves the guy. Any subtle dictator always loves someone who safely turns rebellion into conformity.

Santa's Boyfriend

Ciarán, that was a really interesting post you put up.  Nice one.  You're right, it does seem obvious to me that art can be more than one thing at the same time (ie both artist and criminal, both art and pornography, etc.) but then I've been in or around the art world all my life.  Regarding the Taliban blowing up the Buddist statues, that was certainly not an artistic statement - it was a religious and political one.  I believe that art can do and say and be anything - however behind it, there must be intent.  Or in the words of Damien Hirst, "it's art because I say it is".  To me, when people ask "is this art?" usually there is no question.  If it is intended to be art, then it is art.  The question they should be asking is "is this good or bad art?" to which the answer is often the latter.  But then it's all a matter of opinion anyway.

sproggy

Let's not get too deep here, He's just a bloke who likes to turn heads with his art.  Not a bad thing in my opinion, it all gets a little tedious when people start trying to hang labels off him.

Santa's Boyfriend

Quote from: "sproglette"it all gets a little tedious when people start trying to hang labels off him.

True.

butnut



Come on, she's not all that bad after all.