4K

[Alberon]

Just saw this on the BBC's website. Turns out there is some 4K content coming soon after all, House of Cards season 2 from Netflix. I don't have Netflix so I've no idea how they are with compression which is, of course, far more important than the number of pixels.

Around the hotel suite, different screens showed the various ways you can now get access to the Netflix platform, but pride of place went to a Sony 4K television showing a trailer for the second series of House of Cards. At CES, Hastings took to the stage with Sony's Kazuo Hirai to announce that the series would be filmed in the new ultra-high definition format.

He says 4K is a big opportunity for Netflix and for internet television in general. "It will be the first format that is internet only - broadcast, cable, satellite they're not going to have ultra HD at least in the next five years," he says.

So, if you want to see every bead of sweat on Kevin Spacey's forehead as he plots his way across Washington, you'll need to splash out on a new television and a Netflix subscription. This makes Hastings an even more powerful figure in an industry which will have to work hard to persuade consumers to move to the new format.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25670452

[Santa's Boyfriend]

Just saw this on the BBC's website. Turns out there is some 4K content coming soon after all, House of Cards season 2 from Netflix. I don't have Netflix so I've no idea how they are with compression which is, of course, far more important than the number of pixels.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25670452

Crucially, most platforms currently available won't support it (ie PS3, Xbox etc) - only 4K tvs with Netflix built in will be able to run it, which is probably sensible right now considering most boxes can't output 4K anyway.  But you've got to start somewhere.

[MC Root]

Did they ever consider most of the time, most of what people watch on TV is unworthy of the technology they're developing? Films and sport come in to their own on TV, sure, but what about The One Show? What about QVC Shopping Channel? Homes Under The Hammer? This is what is mainly on.

This is why I have for years been staunchly opposed to ever upgrading to HD, and having observed it's poor implementation in the US was more of a deterrent, but they'd gotten most of the kinks out in the US by the time it got to where I am. The mantra for me at the time has always been "they need to spend the money on the content, not the tech".

Little known fact, 4k is actually higher than the resolution of reality. They have to use special computers to add the extra detail in that doesn't exist.

Yep, they already added artificial grain to digitally shot films like the Star Wars second trilogy thingy. And yeah, it's all down to a person's subjective interpretation if they're seeing "the real image".

I think our eyes contain something like 20 million rods and cones - basically our natural pixels. One day, soon, someone will make a pointless TV that has more tiny dots than our eyes can perceive.

This is where it really does seem to matter what your proximity to the screen is. If they could do that, we'd be watching "film" essentially finally as you can keep zooming in on film because it's obviously not constrained by a number, it's down to the particles of light being captured or not.

I think 4K (and definitely 8K) is going to be about the maximum resolution we'd ever need for a telly, unless it takes up the whole wall anything more than that is largely wasted. What would be the point in getting one right now, though? There's no 4K Blu-Rays yet and certainly no one streaming it.

You're absolutely right, so far is the biggest problem with a storage medium and content delivery system. I spoke to a guy in a store with one 4K TV on display, he was there JUST to promote the technology and to "make sure people don't think it's just a fad".

However, this is from a reputable source:

In the stills photography world digital didn't approach 35mm quality until it reached 12K.

But El Unicornio has a point in that it is entirely up to the viewer.

Isn't 4mbps the same bitrate as a 4-5gb bluray rip? Never had a problem with them. I've even seen bluray films taken all the way down to 600mb for the whole file that look good.

This season of Community, for example, I'm downloading 25Mbit transport streams (Sat feeds rather than over-the-air) and you can tell they're better quality the 720p encodes, or than the iTunes versions, due to lack of artifacts and the depth of field, etc.

The one thing that I can say is that the further away you sit from the screen, the lower definition you can get away with without noticing. I've got a 27" monitor - not even a big HD TV - and use a stand-alone media player for it. I can always tell the difference between compression and film grain though and that's what I really wanted from the quality of the films I want to keep. Film's an organic thing and the way it can and can't compensate for low light, working with natural light can increase the flexibility of film making incredibly.

However, they've just said this:

Samsung Predicts 4K Blu-ray for 2014

Philip Newton shared his belief that a 4K disc medium will arrive "by the end of the year." All of the technology for three and four-layer 100-125GB disc production is ready, but companies are simply waiting for manufacturers and the BDA to finalize the standards for the medium. Current topics of contention apparently include which codec will be used for the new format, with H.265 and Google's VP9 both being among the options.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Ultra_HD/4K/Samsung/Samsung_Predicts_4K_Blu-ray_for_2014/13546

So there's a mini-battle of codecs that will obviously get solved again once the porn industry says which codec it prefers.

And there are people streaming/downloading it. Not new, there's already Sony Video Unlimited 4K Download Service:

At its CES press conference yesterday, Sony unveiled its full 2014 lineup of 4K displays and announced new details about its 4K content delivery options, including expanded support for its Video Unlimited 4K Download Service and new partnerships with Netflix.

Since launching in September 2013, Sony's Video Unlimited Service is now home to a growing library of more than 140 4K films and TV shows

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Streaming/Ultra_HD/4K/Sony/Sony_Spotlights_2014_4K_Displays_and_Content/13525

At its CES press conference yesterday, Samsung revealed its full lineup of Ultra HD displays, including several curved-screen options. The impressive roster of TVs ranges in size from 50-inches to a whopping 110-inches and all of the models feature LCD LED panels and support HEVC, HDMI 2.0, MHL 3.0 and HDCP 2.2. In addition, the sets are future proof thanks to Samsung's external and upgradable UHD Evolution Kit.

In addition, Samsung also announced details on its 4K content delivery plans. To this end, the company revealed an expansion of its "UHD Ecosystem" and will be working with Amazon, M-GO, Netflix, Comcast, and DIRECTV to integrate 4K content and streaming options through their respective applications. For their part, the company will also release its own UHD Video Pack, taking the form of an HDD loaded with 4K films and documentaries from 20th Century Fox and Paramount. A total of 50 downloadable Ultra HD titles are expected to be available through the service in 2014.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Streaming/4K/Ultra_HD/Samsung/Samsung_Details_2014_UHD_TV_Line_and_4K_Content_Options/13524

I hope 4K doesn't have the dreadful issue HD tvs suffer from which is the inability to process movement properly, giving the eye the impression of limbs flailing unnaturally quickly- a problem which seeming has been completely ignored because it would be too embarrassing to actually admit.

I think motion should actually be sorted with these new codecs and making sure the systems that run it have the specs. I can't say I've personally noticed the problem with blurays, is it possible that you're looking at TV broadcasts rather than blurays though because TV is broadcast in 1080i, so maybe it's the interlacing you're noticing. I could be wrong but I know what you mean from trying to play things that are too high a bitrate on a spec. strained. PC as well. But I haven't noticed this with bluray, but 1080i suffers from almost being broadcast in MPEG2 still instead of the 264 codec, which Channel 4 have adopted, but still 1080i so interlacing will mess with movement. It also depends if the finished product originated on film or was shot on digital HD cameras in terms of interlacing.

But so far we've had some films remastered to 8K, but most are being done to 4K, and then being re-released to bluray (Taxi Driver) or are for cinema use only (Laurence of Arabia), etc. The issue will be what consumers actually want, how much they can tell the difference, how well a country has used their HD bandwidth and what for and how many SD channels they try and shove in, and what kind of content delivery there will be. It's so subjective though. All I know is there are certain things I'd only want to watch on an old CRT as the higher and higher definition we're getting, the worse older material seems to look.

I guess what the end result is whether the end consumer wants to be able to have the same quality as the masters that these things end up on, or if they're happy with a lossy format which a lot of people are fine with by the looks of things, but there's always the push for the biggest, best and new. I sure wouldn't want to scratch a 4K disc. It's got 3-4 layers on a single surface!

The biggest problem I have with HD is how distracting I find it. I find I lose my concentration sometimes because of something in the background I wouldn't have noticed in SD, or a small zit on someone's nose or something. I don't feel like my enjoyment of films/TV has improved (aside from stuff specifically aimed at HD like recent nature docus), but at the same time I'll choose it anyway (I almost always watch the 5-6 HD freeview channels exclusively) because it looks more beautiful and if I watch in SD I'll be thinking "this would look better in HD".

This is an issue. But it was also why films like Citizen Kane were praised for their elaborate use of depth of field. It gives the viewer choices instead of being told where to look constantly with close ups or short cuts, but you're right there are sometimes distractions and you do notice a skin blemish and think I don't really need to be noticing that - a lot of actors in Hollywood were very threatened by HD showing their imperfections.

And also that feeling of watching something in SD is now pretty much ruined. I was against this, now I'm an advocate of it. The other issue is space, films are 250-150gigs. I guess if they do get this medium working that's a bonus, whether we can back them up to make sure if something happens to them we still have a copy only time will tell. I wouldn't want to put things back on discs, they seem to volatile a medium for me with an unpredictable life-span past a couple of years. I feel safer with hard drive backups, although they need to be backed up too and drives are only guaranteed for 3 years.

There's too much money and too many companies involved in the US at the very least for it to stop. So god help us, it's coming! And don't say oooh eeer!

[Mister Six]

This season of Community, for example, I'm downloading 25Mbit transport streams (Sat feeds rather than over-the-air) and you can tell they're better quality the 720p encodes, or than the iTunes versions, due to lack of artifacts and the depth of field, etc.

How does encoding affect depth of field?

[MC Root]

To be honest, with depth of field, I'm probably just exaggerating the effects of compression because of previous experience with  really lossy compression like XviD, which can transform a wall into a block with detail only around it at times. And it's been suggested I be more open to codecs that aren't lossy in thinking about 4K, etc. I guess I've used flac and consider that a lossless codec. I'm just being picky. I could possibly find something on bluray and compare it to a standard definition encode or maybe a 720p one, and complain about not being able to see someone or something in the background, but I won't waste your time and I probably would find it hard to find a good example.