Let's rewatch Brass Eye

[Guy]

as a newcomer, the references aren't as funny as they once were.

Er, as a newcomer, how do you know? :)

The interviews do not carry the same weight anymore to newcomers as they won't recognise the people and the references to people, which is a big part of the joke.

Not to derail, but this came up in a thread about Filthy, Rich & Catflap recently, about people not knowing who Jimmy Tarbuck is (nb. he's a jolly gap-toothed Scouser comedian, it says so), and I argued that new viewers may not recognise the names but they will sure as hell recognise the celebrity culture (probably more so than ever). I think that applies here too.

Again, I accept your observation that the effect may be diminished, but not that there's a programme failure there.

[Neil]

I agree, but I never said it was meritless to make transient comedy. I just said, objectively, it had aged badly. My posts have been trying to explain that as a newcomer, the references aren't as funny as they once were. They WERE at the time. But they're not anymore. I didn't mean to be trying to make a point about merit. I was trying to talk about what had remained funny from a complete outsider. The interviews do not carry the same weight anymore to newcomers as they won't recognise the people and the references to people, which is a big part of the joke. The rest of the stuff. The written jokes, the delivery, the savageness, the graphics, the overall execution remains, but it's not what it once was.

I don't think you can objectively say it's aged badly, because the "dating" of comedy is very definitely a subjective issue. 

[clingfilm portent]

Much better done?!  Can you give examples please?

I too would love to know what mobias was referring to here.

The criticisms of the show aging badly or losing something to non-Brits are weird to me as well. I don't get every bit of ghetto slang on listening to a Wu Tang album but that's not what I'm listening to it for. The thing itself is inherently powerful. I don't need to know every detail inside out.

I also didn't see Brass Eye until just before the 2001 special, and was still too young to fully appreciate it anyway. Even 13 years later I can watch it and discover new things. I mean, its that good.

[Kane Jones]

I can vividly recall me and a friend sitting down to watch the first Brass Eye show back in early 1997. We were both fans of The Day Today and I had also enjoyed On The Hour and The Chris Morris Music Shows too, but for some reason I wasn't expecting much from his new show. Less than a minute into it and we were both pissing ourselves and continued to sit there in awe for the next half an hour. We watched it again immediately afterwards to pick up the bits we'd missed due to our laughter. I don't think I'd ever been so genuinely thrilled, awe-struck or excited by a comedy show before then, and to be honest, I don't think I have since. I still think it's one of the most brilliantly original and hilarious things ever to be broadcast. Yet Blue Jam is still my favourite Morris creation. In the 90s, Morris was several steps ahead of the game and was untouchable in my eyes. I believe he genuinely earned the 'genius' tag back in those days. Great times.. *sips tea*

[Thomas]

As a relatively young fan of Brass Eye, I don't find myself agreeing that it's aged badly, or anything along those lines. Rather, it's like a preserved slice of the mid-90s, complete with celebrities of the time, and what it's saying is still relevant today.[nb]and, more importantly, it's really, really funny.[/nb] It's not that it's aged, in the sense that we've been using - it's just that almost twenty years have passed since it was new. It looks of its time, and that only works in the show's favour. Not so much the nineties as the ja-danketies.

Dunno if any of that makes sense at all.

Besides, that perfectly timed image of Liam Gallagher in the opening titles is surely an immortal one.

I can only echo what's been said in regard to detail throughout Brass Eye. It really is extraordinary, and I've noticed - after reading a comment by Neil, I think - that the special does lack a few of the touches of the main series (a long shot of the JLB-8 gig, for example, not merging the screens properly with the quality of the original footage). But the updating of the show's motifs and stings, to those millennial minimalist sequences, is nice. But I'm getting ahead of myself here, this is all discussion for later.

[mobias]

Much better done?!  Can you give examples please?

I know what he was doing was slightly different but Sasha Baron Coen at his best is who I had in my mind. Brass Eye is certainly talked about as an influence to what he did. His improvisation skills are far superior and sharper to Morris's performance in Brass Eye. Also what he did with Borat and Bruno when lampooning people with homophobic, racist and anti-Semitic views with them really not being aware of the joke is better satire than just getting a bunch of slightly gormless celebrities to say made up nonsense the way Morris did. I'm not sure of what point was being made other than gormless celebrities will say anything when shoved in front of a camera and manipulated the right way.  I always thought that part of Brass Eye would have been far better had Morris got in people with more authority. I'm not a big fan of the peodophile episode but it does contain one of my favourite scenes in any of the Brass Eye episodes and thats the bit when policeman Michael Hames is shown a whole load of ridiculous photos and asked to pass judgement as to whether they're obscene or not. It seems a far funnier and clever bit of satire because it is asking valid questions whilst at the same time being really funny as well as just silly and surreal in the way the best of Brass Eye is. Its great because Michael Hames isn't being made fun of but he is unwittingly part of a very funny and clever set up.

I've read interviews with Chris Morris where he's stated that the celebrity duping was less about making them the victim of the joke and more about just making them part of the joke and I can see his point but most of those bits are still Brass Eye at its weakest I think simply because they are gormless celebrities and of course gormless celebrities are going to spout anything you tell them if you manipulate them the way Morris did. Where it was better was when he got in the Tory MP in the drugs episode because that seemed to me to be making slightly more of a point. He's a figure of authority who should have known better and I think deserved to be stirred up in what Morris was trying to do with Brass Eye. Like I said before there should have been much more of that sort of person on it and far fewer vacuous irrelevant celebrities. I'm sure Chris Morris himself has said they were all far to easy a target which is partly the reason he didn't do any more.
Don't get me wrong though there are some very funny moments with the celebrity duping for example the Darcus Howe, Robert Elms introduction mix up is another one of my favourite scenes but I was surprised when watching it again recently just how much I thought a lot of the rest of them are the shows weakest link. The characters and sketches are so much better. 

I don't even think you need to know who the celebs are

I agree. I didn't know who either Darcus Howe or Robert Elms where when I first saw that show but it didn't stop me nearly wetting myself at that scene. The fact that Brass Eye is clearly hugely liked abroad by those that know about it makes me think it must translate well enough.

[Thomas]

That shot of a single weasel landing on the ground is brilliant.

[Ian Benson]

I was going to say SBC as an example of someone who has built on what Morris did and then bettered it in a lot of ways. For example, Morris is making the same point over and over (celebs want to appear to care on TV when they don't really know what they're talking about and will say the most ridiculous shit if it's on cue cards and a camera's rolling) in different contexts, whereas SBC just let people hang themselves and show their true colours on a whole variety of subjects. Also you've got the reports on The Daily Show and The Colbert Report where the people are often being interviewed about their own policies and whatnot (and so should be more prepared than the interviewer (which contrasts with how it plays out in Brass Eye where Morris is holding all the cards and can make up some funny business on the spot that can send the interview off in an entirely uncharted direction)) and still they end up looking moronic.

I do enjoy these bits in Brass Eye, but at the same time I'm not overly impressed by a person's ability to trick, say, Britt Ekland or Wolf from Gladiators into saying something stupid. I feel like anyone could do that if they really wanted to. And for all the talk of Morris crediting his audience with intelligence, it's odd that he's so into making the same basic point in every single episode of the show. Other than the topic being discussed there's fuck all variance. It's a shame that he got so stuck on this because the rest of the show is properly brilliant, with him playing weird yet real characters and so on, and I would have liked to have seen more of that sort of thing.

[Neil]

Thanks for clarifying mobias. I strongly disagree with every word, but appreciate the input. Especially disagree that SBC has better improv skills than CM - I've always ranked him up there with Cook and Winters. I loved the Ali G HBO shows, and yes, they certainly benefited from the influence of Brass Eye, and Peter Fincham's presence.

The point largely is that people will support causes without knowing anything about them, which proves they have no real stake in them. They'll regurgitate absolute garbage just so they sound like experts. They believe their celebrity status gives them gravitas - that it naturally follows that they will sound important and informed. And yet, they don't have a clue what they're on about. Anything to get their fat faces on the telly, and to parade themselves as self-important beacons of wisdom and caution.

I paused this just after Science started just to come on here and talk about the audacity of the opening. Former newspaper editor Eve Pollard, introducing footage of a two-foot bollock in a cot.

I think you do CM a great disservice by down-playing just what an enormous amount of codswallop he actually got them to say! I mean, it's fucking staggering. It's out there - way, way out there - necessarily so, to make it as funny and pointed as it is. The surreal, nonsensical, hilarious concepts he gets people to believe and endorse are absolutely mind-blowing. Then he'll get them to fucking point out the ludicrousness of the conceit too ("It's a made-up drug", "HOECS" etc.) Again, the sheer audacity and risk-taking is absolutely wild.

I think the quote you're trying to recall is actually along the lines of CM professing his own boredom with continuing to engage in techniques he'd spent around 20 years honing.  "Once you can operate the levers with 80% of efficiency, there's no point in doing it. You should only do it if you think you're going to fail, otherwise the whole thing becomes depressingly routine."

Pleae don't underestimate the incredible levels of intelligence, social engineering, experience and sheer hard work that went into those stings. The likes of Coyle and Sharpe could get people on the street ready to rob banks, or make them believe in apples with feet, but no one - no one - ever took this kind of shit as far as Chris Morris did with Brass Eye. And I'm not sure anyone else ever will.

(Bear in mind, too, that the whole thing really was perilously and intricately balanced. Had celebs found out ahead of transmission, they would have fucked the whole thing side-ways, as Phil Collins almost did with the BES. Stuff for that leaked on here at the time, and I got my balls chewed off for it. They were going ape-shit, the entire show was in jeopardy. Then you have all the business with the Krays for the original series. CM's fucking hilarious fax campaign. The transmission delays etc.  Man.)

[Neil]

Something that should also pointed out - and it kind of fits in with the talk of comedy becoming dated - is that the TV comedy landscape was enormously different then. You didn't hear the c-word in tv shows, really, certainly not comedies. I'll wager most folks in charge never even spotted it in Brass Eye. I'll bet some of you still haven't - god only knows what else is still in there to be discovered. Graphic and realistic depictions of drugs-taking weren't really seen, that I can think of. It was certainly nowhere near as easy to mock organised religion, as the reaction to Jerry Springer The Opera showed a few years later. Brass Eye methodically identified every boundary in existence, then joyfully smashed through them all with its balls hanging out.

[Neil]

Anyway forgot to highlight the idea d giving birth to a mandrill "by mistake" really cracked me the fuck up. He tags on all these little details everywhere, I love them "...with a little girder."

"Of course some people say it would be vulnerable in a strong wind, but for goodness sake, who's to say there's going to be a strong wind." Hahahah.

And again, his characterisation is staggering. So many different characters, all performed brilliantly. I loved that post earlier about how complete and believable Bernard Lerring is.

Baynham's character is called "Sven Yabbsley"!  Gotta be a reference to CM's Radio Bristol colleague Steve Yabsley, who invented and circulated a lot of the early rumours about Morris that the press regurgitate to this day.

Donald Fagen reference!

"Jas Mann c/o Viv Stanshall, London W1 6RS" wow!

[Sexton Brackets Drugbust]

Something that often gets overlooked is how great a physical comedian Morris is. He has a sharp wit and a flare for absurd and creative use of language, but he also moves in an utterly unique way, adding all sorts of little flourishes throughout his performances.

Bernard Lerring's peculiar greeting gestures to the women at the bar has been mentioned, but another example that's always fascinated me is at the end of the Animals episode, when, after introducing the abattoir worker who will be executed to 'redress the balance', Morris gestures towards the next segment of the show in the most bizarre twitching fashion, like a ripple from his head, down to his elbow and into his arm.

Austin Tasseltine's complete rigidity is another character trait that Morris utterly inhabits.

[Neil]

Agreed! He has that original physicality that made Rik Mayall so great in The Young Ones. Isn't he doing the wanker gesture in that part you mentioned? That's how I remember it.

Gotta switch to my good telly and transcribe the Peacecap letter, there's some other stuff that might be readable on it too.

[mobias]

Please don't underestimate the incredible levels of intelligence, social engineering, experience and sheer hard work that went into those stings. The likes of Coyle and Sharpe could get people on the street ready to rob banks, or make them believe in apples with feet, but no one - no one - ever took this kind of shit as far as Chris Morris did with Brass Eye. And I'm not sure anyone else ever will.

Do you not think though Neil that that part of the show would have been better had all that skill and clever manipulation been aimed at people who do actually have some sort of gravitas? People that do actually know about the subjects they're talking about whilst at the same time unwittingly lampooning them would have been far superior than getting Phil Collins to say 'we're talking Nonce Sense whilst pointing at his hat and T-shirt. I just thought the latter was unbelievably naff when I watched it recently. Thats the main reason I don't really like the peodophile episode much, it just lurches too much from brilliant, funny and important satire to almost bottom of the barrel humour throughout the whole episode. What was he thinking with the song at the end?

I take what you say that there was a point being made about celebrities lending themselves to any cause offered to them without seemingly questioning it but I think it would have been even funnier had the people involved been somehow connected to the issues they were lampooning. The Tory MP was brilliant and thats a great example of Morris's ability at manipulation and it must have been hugely satisfying to see him actually volunteer to ask questions about Cake in parliament. What a score there.  Also the policeman getting involved because I think these sorts of people should really be at the centre of the joke and whats being satirised much more so than manipulating Rolf Harris or Gary Lineker or whoever else. Once that points been made, that these C list celebrities will say anything and will lend themselves to anything, then its kind of laboured to carry on with it. Ok yes it can be funny when it works but its just not as profound as it could have been if they were people of more importance or relevance I don't think. 

[Neil]

(sorry for flooding this page)

You'd have to figure that people who really know their shit would be much, much harder to put in ludicrous situations, and would question all the bullshit jargon or readily recognise it as nonsense. Who knows though, especially with CM - he's certainly managed to prank prankers like Noel Edmonds and Michael Moore, but then we know people knee-deep in causes, like Carol Vorderman, were aimed for, and turned him down.

As it is, Brass Eye is primarily concerned with skewering the world of celebrity - people we're supposed to admire and respect just because of their fame. I wonder if it's perhaps become more relevant and important over the years, in this respect.

These are a subset of people who cynically and repeatedly use charity causes to boost their own public profile and flog product. They had it coming.

Edit: And y'know, it may largely be the same points being made, but boy did he make them with aplomb. To get so many different stings on so many different themes, and then weave them into the narrative of each show. Remarkable.

[The Giggling Bean]

I watched the Torque TV pilot for the first time the other day. I was surprised to see extra footage of existing sketches. There was slightly more to the Cow bothering report, the fox hunting aristocrat had a bit more to say. The professor who believed all Animals where vegetarian had a whole lot more too it. I can understand that they where probably trimmed for time but it was interesting to see what could've been.

Sally Phillips was the reporter for the Vegetarian Animals report, which covered "The London Mingle" which was dropped from Brass Eye. I'd never heard that she was supposed to have been in the series but I imagine she'd have problems with the religious sketches. If I remember rightly doesn't she hold strong religious beliefs?

Someone mentioned above thread about David Caan not wanting to take part in the special. Can anyone elaborate on the reasons, was it because he was uncomfortable with the material or had he fallen out with CM? Did anybody else decline to be involved due to the premise of the show?

[Sexton Brackets Drugbust]

I watched the Torque TV pilot for the first time the other day. I was surprised to see extra footage of existing sketches. There was slightly more to the Cow bothering report, the fox hunting aristocrat had a bit more to say. The professor who believed all Animals where vegetarian had a whole lot more too it. I can understand that they where probably trimmed for time but it was interesting to see what could've been.

Sally Phillips was the reporter for the Vegetarian Animals report, which covered "The London Mingle" which was dropped from Brass Eye. I'd never heard that she was supposed to have been in the series but I imagine she'd have problems with the religious sketches. If I remember rightly doesn't she hold strong religious beliefs?

Someone mentioned above thread about David Caan not wanting to take part in the special. Can anyone elaborate on the reasons, was it because he was uncomfortable with the material or had he fallen out with CM? Did anybody else decline to be involved due to the premise of the show?

Sally Phillips is now religious, but I'm not certain she was yet a practising Christian during Brass Eye's production and she certainly still collaborated with Morris in a small number of Blue Jam sketches.

I believe David Cann's wife very tragically died of breast cancer around the time of the BE Special, so I wonder if the undoubted pressure of that whole situation had some bearing on his choice not to involve himself with the project.

[Thomas]

'I had two guinea pigs...'
'Jesus.'

[thraxx]

Does anyone know why the BBC rejected the Torque TV pilot?  It's not that far from The Day Today, which must have got a lot of acclaim for the BBC.  Or perhaps they wanted to edit it too heavily, which Morris wouldn't agree to?

[Neil]

I can't manage to transcribe the "Andrew Gets Replacement For Worn Out Pelvis" article in Science, but noticed the second guy is named Mr. Godmanchester, pronounced Gumpster. Ted Maul retreating while saying "the creeps may have scarpered" killed me. "It's not cool to be weird."

Peacecap Johnson letter:

DEAR PEACECAP
YOU REMEMBER HOW THIS WAS ALL A "BIG SECRET" WELL PEACECAP MUST KEEP HIS SOFT LICKER(S CLOSED???)
PEACEY MUST PROMISE HE WILL NEVER TELL ANYONE ABOUT BUZZ AND THE BIG WHITE PEN.
AND NOW PEACEY MUST READ AOME SAD NEWS ABOUT BUZZ. BUZZ WILL BE AWAY FOR A LONG TIME.  PEACEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO SEE HIM OR (???) UNTIL BUZZ COMES BACK.

...MUST NOT TRY AND WRITE - OR...
...SENT ROUND TO HU(RT?)...
...DID - REAL...


Big white pen!

Does anyone know Spanish? He says "For these guys right now, it's no Apoll-eh(???) but an ex-operative defied NASA to tell us que pasa." que pasa = what's up. What's the other word(s)? Is he saying no a-parlay and making it sound like Apollo maybe? No headphones to hand.

(Nein-ties btw, Thomas. Fucking awesome line, that. Edit: Reading back, I probably actually corrected your joke there, sorry.)

[Thomas]

Does anyone know why the BBC rejected the Torque TV pilot?  It's not that far from The Day Today, which must have got a lot of acclaim for the BBC.  Or perhaps they wanted to edit it too heavily, which Morris wouldn't agree to?

From Disgusting Bliss -

[The channel's controller Michael Jackson] did admire the pilot when it was completed in autumn 1995. But admiration wasn't the same as commissioning. Jackson quickly came to the conclusion that the BBC wouldn't be able to support the celebrity interviews and treatment of the subject matter.

From the same book -

Only news and current affairs could deceive interviewees and even then only if their makers could show it was part of an investigation in the public interest.

Basically, then, tricking celebrities into deceitful interviews was not on if done purely for entertainment. Morris got around that by arguing that Brass Eye would demonstrate, in the public interest, that celebrities will attach their names and faces to any old cause if it gets them on telly. This official cause justified those interviews.

So it was sort of nearly illegal, really. I think that was the BBC's problem.

[Neil]

Just remember Peacecap - say it like the grown ups say... we have forged a human bond far stronger than sex(???) that went on between us..

Your distant partner -
  Buzz

Edit: I was only going to do the funny stuff, but seeing as we were talking about the stings, let's look at the set-up to see how he establishes the ideas:

STOP THIS ENVIROMENTAL TRAGEDY

We all benefit from modern technology and most of us take progress for granted. But what happens when technology goes wrong?

In the 1950's, nuclear power appeared to be the solution to mankind's energy problems. In the 1980's, genetic engineering promised to bring fantastic medical breakthroughs. But science can cause as many problems as it solves...

Three years ago a village in Sri Lanka began to fall victim to a series of freak accidents and mystery illnesses which are now believed to be linked to a nearby particle accelerator.

Although the National Sinhalese Electro Research Centee (JSRPA) and its Western Investors have continually denied that the huge magnetic fields created by the accelerator could be responsible, environmentalists have begun to add their voices to the growing concern about the centre's safety.

The danger appears to have arisen because of ineffective screening between the accelerator's own massive power supply and the local power network. Huge surges of current from the accelerator have been able to cross over to the domestic grid, wreaking havoc.

Once on the local grid the super-charged current, known as "heavy electricity", travels through the cables in a series of powerful bolts far too large for the cables to contain.

Woaaah, I forgot all about the closing monologue, fuuck. And I really like CM rocking back and forth in the dock, then being surprised by the camera. And the solemn nodding at pollution!

"and Will Self as Little Kenneth"

[TJ]

Someone mentioned above thread about David Caan not wanting to take part in the special. Can anyone elaborate on the reasons, was it because he was uncomfortable with the material or had he fallen out with CM? Did anybody else decline to be involved due to the premise of the show?

As Sexton said, he was having a bit of a difficult personal time at that point (David used to post on here in fact, and was quite open about stuff, so I'm sure he won't mind it being repeated), and from what I could gather he really just felt uneasy with the subject matter and the tone, rather than any outrage or indignance or anything. Didn't stop Popbitch making up lies about his non-appearance, though. Supposedly a few other people - mainly writers - didn't want to be involved either, but that's based on hearsay so it wouldn't be fair to name them.

What I can tell you for certain, though, was that the original outline was a LOT wilder than what actually went out, presumably to make the actual content seem mild in comparison (ha!). Stuff about ten year old poledancers, libellous remarks about rock stars, that sort of thing.

[Neil]

Did he post on here?  There's one possible post I think he made, of which I will always remember your reply "Chris Morris is Bobby Chariot?!"  I think Cann and CM sadly had a big falling out at some point.  David Cann is certainly one of the all-time greatest Morris collaborators - that cheeky, boyish grin he does adds a deadly level of charm to the most outrageous ideas, e.g. Drumlake.  You know, I think that's one thing I've realised this week - one of the funniest things to me is when CM's characters openly display pleasure at their own hideous actions, with Drugs containing some stellar examples.  It's interesting when you think of how Blue Jam was about getting many of the characters far, far away from their emotions (with the obvious exceptions such as "Cunts of Gold.")

[TJ]

Yeah, can't remember what his username was and I think he was more of a lurker* and very low key about who he actually was... he did get really stuck into a thread about Sapphire & Steel (which he was in) once, though. It was through here that I contacted him and found out some amazing behind-the-scenes Blue Jam stuff, including the truth about the Archbishop edit.

*Do we still have 'name' lurkers/occasional posters? I know Walliams, Ayoade, Brooker etc were back in the day (as well as, erm, Marie from Kenickie), and Christian O'Connell used to post to the mailing list a lot. Someone once told me a pre-fame Matt Smith was a regular poster too?!

[Neil]

I dunno, apart from Brooker's brief involvement before Nathan Barley, I don't know any of that, and am always surprised when anyone at all reads the forum, particularly in 2013, never mind named brands.  I guess I know a couple, but thinking about that kind of thing just inhibits what you write.

[Artemis]

Just as an aside to the thread, I have to echo the praise for David Cann, here. If push came to shove, I think I'd happily vote him my favourite Morris collaborator, within the wonderful cast Morris repeatedly used. That's not to say the rest aren't also brilliant, but Cann was so versatile and used everything about himself in whatever role he inhabited, even if that was very brief. I remember smiling instinctively just realising he was going to be in a sketch, and he's one of those performers who manages to add to the material through his performance; many a time Cann has given me additional laughs from just a glint in his eye, or a slight inflection of mischief. He's a sublime performer of the highest order with a real comedic instinct.

I guess we're all watching 'Animals' now, so I'll go ahead and start.

[TJ]

I dunno, apart from Brooker's brief involvement before Nathan Barley, I don't know any of that, and am always surprised when anyone at all reads the forum, particularly in 2013, never mind named brands.  I guess I know a couple, but thinking about that kind of thing just inhibits what you write.

This is true, but I'd also say locking horns with people (other than that ridiculous Zed character) also taught me to think of things from the other person's point of view a bit more, and not leap to conclusions... something I never used to be good at!

[Neil]

The funniest thing is still the two guys from Balls of Steel, "chill out, have a laqer and a wank." Imagine feeling compelled to defend that fucking show, as if it's something you're genuinely proud of.

[mobias]

I dunno, apart from Brooker's brief involvement before Nathan Barley, I don't know any of that, and am always surprised when anyone at all reads the forum, particularly in 2013, never mind named brands.  I guess I know a couple, but thinking about that kind of thing just inhibits what you write.

I think you'd be surprised Neil at just how many people read internet forums. I know a few people in the music industry (as in reasonably well known musicians) and they all frequent various music forums simply because curiosity gets the better of them and its a free and easy way to see what people are saying about their work. This place is bound to have a lot of well known people frequenting it. The comedy section is instant feedback for them and its feedback of a decent quality too. Incidentally I was convinced Limmy was posting here for a while but I might have been wrong. Are you ever going to do that interview with him? He seemed up for it at one point.

Anyway the level of discourse here is far superior to any other forum I've ever visited. From music to games to comedy to masturbation techniques this place has it all.