'The Smiths'

[El Unicornio, mang]

I just got done reading "A Light That Never Goes Out", 700 page book about The Smiths which goes into quite exhaustive detail about the band. By all accounts, it seems that the first album was done under quite tortuous circumstances. Also, "Strangeways" is considered by all the band members as their best, but I think it's quite typical for artists to like their most recent work the best. It's great but "Death at One's Elbow" is pretty terrible and I've never liked "Girlfriend in a Coma" much.

[holyzombiejesus]

The first side of Meat is Murder is the best side of any Smiths lp. It also includes their best song.

[the science eel]

Wtf? I can't thinker of a better track to play someone were they to say "what do The Smiths sound like in one song?"

It just supports the typical Smiths-haters' (usually erroneous) criticism that they were miserable, that their music and lyrics were miserable.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Wtf? I can't thinker of a better track to play someone were they to say "what do The Smiths sound like in one song?"

Which misses the point that if someone asked that question you should tell them bands don't work like that.

[Retinend]

You know what I mean.

[The Plunger]

I know it's a worn observation, but I like how prophetic it is. All that reissuing and repackaging, double-packs with photographs and extra tracks.

Very true. I like to listen to it now and think of the constant Mozzer solo reissues/repackaging/revisionism. All those fucking 7" picture disc reissues. And I know a lot of it is a case of record company cashing-in with no Mozzer input. But a lot of it does involve his input - look at the revised (and fucking stupid) tracklistings for some of the reissues.

On a vaguely-related tack - these days I'd say the Johnny Marr live versions of Smiths tracks piss all over the Morrissey versions. Marr's vocals are surprisingly good. So you have good vocals with sublime guitar playing over the top. Whereas the Morrissey live versions have the (obviously) superior vocals but bog-standard rockabilly band backing. Marr all the way.

Enjoy : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIHOZOZYIHs

[Neomod]

Enjoy : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIHOZOZYIHs

That's lovely. Has Johnny had singing lessons as his voice seems to be stronger there than on other stuff I heard last year.

Did any one else see them live? I was lucky enough to catch them twice, The first album tour and the Meat is Murder tour (still got my programme).

Oh and Meat is Murder is my favourite album although The Queen is Dead is the better work.

[Thomas]

Mildly Diverting saw 'em.

[Johnny Townmouse]

Do people really rate "Frankly Mr Shankly"? To me it's a novelty track in The Smiths canon. Same with "Vicar In A Tutu". For that reason I don't think Queen can be called their best, really. I just think it would've been a much stronger album if they'd put "Asleep" or "Stretch Out And Wait" in the tracklisting, and consigned the aforementioned tracks to b-side status.

That's pretty much how I feel. A fantastic album, with a couple of duff tracks. Strangeways for me is not perfect, but the little issues matter less.

[Vodka Margarine]

The Queen Is Dead is their best album for sure. It's just... not 'The Smiths' as a concept and as a package. They are different kinds of wonderful. And as for the Hatful track comparisons, it has to be the proper album versions every time. Original 'Reel' is absolutely perfect, piano included.

[El Unicornio, mang]

If we're allowing compilation albums as well, I'd have to say that I think The World Won't Listen is their most consistently good album. If they rejoined Asleep/Rubber Ring (like the original single) it would be near perfect.

Louder Than Bombs too, really (since it's more or less just an extended version). "Golden Lights" has to be skipped though.

[Johnny Textface]

Do people really rate "Frankly Mr Shankly"? To me it's a novelty track in The Smiths canon. Same with "Vicar In A Tutu". For that reason I don't think Queen can be called their best, really. I just think it would've been a much stronger album if they'd put "Asleep" or "Stretch Out And Wait" in the tracklisting, and consigned the aforementioned tracks to b-side status.

Its less about the individual track and more about the album as a whole, and the pace, and the tone etc.. It's the perfect antidote to the previous track. Frankly Mr Shankly is a nice, english bit of fluff.  It drives the album along. It's not a greatest hits record.

it's a novelty track - For that reason I don't think Queen can be called their best, really.

Give me a Smiths album without a 'novelty' track.

[Famous Mortimer]

"Golden Lights" has to be skipped though.

I love that song. Such are our weird human brains.

[Ray Travez]

Oh and Meat is Murder is my favourite album although The Queen is Dead is the better work.

Meat is Murder is my favourite too. There's an insurrectionary spirit running through that that I love.

The Queen is Dead is more of a pop album I think. It's good but there's something missing from it for me. I'm not sure it's even my second favourite.

On the subject of The Smiths album, the intro to 'Miserable Lie' is the most beautiful 55 seconds of music.

[vrailaine]

Miserable Lie is a song that feels like it's gonna get great or something, but instead it takes this drastically wrong direction that seems to drag on forever.

I only know Meat is Murder with How Soon Is Now bolted on, which didn't really fit at all for me but I'm unsure if that's just how I feel about the whole album. The title track is pretty awful though. Should probably revisit that album actually, it may be 6 years since I've listened to anything other than the Headmaster Ritual!

[the science eel]

'How Soon Is Now' - now THERE'S a contender for worst Smiths' song if ever there was. What a dirge! Horrible thick grey dated 80s guitar murk that drags on and on and on and on.

Crap lyrics as well, ripe for parody - 'there's a club if you'd like to go/you could meet somebody/who really loves you/so you go and you stand on your own/and you leave on your own/and you go home/and you cry and you want to die'.

[Thomas]

I like it. A track to really wallow in. I like the murky, dirgy music video, too, even if it was shunned by the band.

Ripe for parody, maybe, but actually pretty funny already, and probably knowingly so.

I think Marr really excelled in the conclusions to 'That Joke Isn't Funny Anymore' and 'Barbarism Begins At Home'.

[the science eel]

Yes - 'That Joke....' especially. That's a really great one.

[Retinend]

Meat Is Murder is, correct me if I'm wrong, the indie muso's traditional choice for favourite Smiths album? It has, as Ray Travez said, some vaguely dissident atmosphere running through it from the title and cover to the first track's mockery of "belligerent goons running Manchester schools, same old suit since 1962" to the concluding double-lecture of "Barbarism Begins at Home" and "Meat is Murder."

"A crack on the head is what you get for not asking, and a crack on the head is what you get for asking."

"This beautiful creature must die. A death for no reason is murder."

Also, the music is less accessible than The Queen is Dead, with longer tracks and a less polished production sound.

For me it's clearly an astounding album, but The Queen is Dead has more levity and silly moments which I think make it a more mature work. Meat is Murder is, for me, just too intense to sit through too often. And I do think that "Rusholme Ruffians" completely ruins the momentum that is built after "The Headmaster Ritual."

'How Soon Is Now' - now THERE'S a contender for worst Smiths' song if ever there was. What a dirge! Horrible thick grey dated 80s guitar murk that drags on and on and on and on.

Crap lyrics as well, ripe for parody - 'there's a club if you'd like to go/you could meet somebody/who really loves you/so you go and you stand on your own/and you leave on your own/and you go home/and you cry and you want to die'.

I like the lyrics. "I'm human and I need to be loved." What a perfectly plaintive depiction of teenage angst that is. And all these at-face-value-"miserable" lyrics are highly knowing, anyway, as Thomas just said. Musically, great too. The tremolo and the blades of guitar noise that swoop through it are Marr at his most creative and exciting, imo.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

How Soon Is Now would be a terrible song if it didn't quintessentially capture such a recognisable moment in most people's lives. The directness of the lyrics and the general immaturity and stroppiness of it is what makes it.

As for the music, that takes a bit more time to get into.

[the science eel]

It's an odd one, 'cos Marr at his best is very deft, sparkly, bright, jangly, all those kinds of adjectives. And Morrissey at HIS best is a comic. I don't hear either of them doing those kinds of things here.

[Retinend]

I think the line "I'm human and I need to be loved" is knowing. It's still sung emotionally, but still it's as melodramatic as other obviously ironic lyrics like "England is mine, it owes me a living," or "what she asked of me at the end of the day...".

True, Marr's sound is mostly as you say, but he could also pull off songs like "The Queen is Dead (Take Me Back to Blighty)", "Meat is Murder" and "How Soon is Now" which anticipate Shoegaze and couldn't be rightly described with "jangly" or "bright," but perhaps "atmospheric" and "sonic."

[the science eel]

They were pretty versatile as a musical 'unit', weren't they?

[Famous Mortimer]

I love "How Soon Is Now", fwiw.

[Retinend]

I never really understood how they got what they did from listening to groups like New York Dolls and T Rex.

[the science eel]

I think those were more Morrissey's influences. Marr was into Red Bird stuff - the girl groups - and Motown.

I saw a docu a few weeks ago - I hadn't realised how focused and ambitious the pair of them were. Of course it makes sense if you look at it all now.

[RickyGerbail]

I'm not sure if it's an issue of maturity or not to include lighthearted material for balance on otherwise depressing albums. Take Pink Moon for example, it's pretty much unrlentingly grim until the last track where a little light is let in, but i doubt a lot of people would point to that record and say that it's a juvenile statement or that it would be improved with two jaunty rockabilly numbers about Drakes record company being thrown in (or whatever the Nick Drake equivalent would be). Would Ok Computer be more mature if there was some comic relief on there?

[Retinend]

Relative maturity, not a strict division between juvenilia and maturity. And not "jauntiness,"/ "comic relief" per se, but growth towards embracing a more diverse set of subjects and moods. The breadth of tone, including the silly moments are part of what make The Queen is Dead such a life-affirming, euphoric album as a whole. And because of the occasional silliness, the album feels well-rounded and mature, just like how a mature person can show a breath of emotional responses and speak in many a manner of ways. For me, at least, this is how it seems. Not to say that Meat is Murder is juvenile, or that the makers were... Just comparative value. It's all good.

[SteveDave]

The Smiths is not as good as Miles Davis.

[Retinend]

You killed every thread you posted that in, you great girl's blouse, including this one that I was enjoying.

Uh... someone say something. Can anyone post some excerpts from the autobiography?