The Beatles are fucking shit

[the science eel]

He's weird.

[Petey Pate]

No, he's quite wrong. They were innovators AND they were popularisers.

What did they actually innovate?  Of course it should make no difference to anyone's opinion on them, just genuinely curious.

[daf]

Scaruffi is pretty much accurate in his point that The Beatles were not so much innovators than they were popularisers.  Essentially, they changed the music industry more than they changed music itself.

They went from 'Love Me Do' to 'Tomorrow Never Knows' in under four years - if that's not musical innovation, what is?

[the science eel]

What did they actually innovate?  Of course it should make no difference to anyone's opinion on them, just genuinely curious.

The idea I have is of them all keyed-up and wild-eyed in the studio with crackpot ideas ('can you put something that only a dog would hear on the end?' 'can we loop that squeaking sound so it goes all the way through?') that George Martin or Ken Scott or whoever would make happen. So the whole process at Abbey Road was innovative.

I certainly think of them that way more than I think of them as old-fashioned songsmiths - altho' of course they were that as well.

[NoSleep]

No, he's quite wrong. They were innovators AND they were popularisers.

Their main innovations were only in the marketing of music. What did they innovate? They seemed to have made their career out of being one step behind the real avant garde but then getting all the publicity because of their fame.

[NoSleep]

The idea I have is of them all keyed-up and wild-eyed in the studio with crackpot ideas ('can you put something that only a dog would hear on the end?' 'can we loop that squeaking sound so it goes all the way through?') that George Martin or Ken Scott or whoever would make happen. So the whole process at Abbey Road was innovative.

I certainly think of them that way more than I think of them as old-fashioned songsmiths - altho' of course they were that as well.

The whole thing of using the studio as an instrument goes back to people like Mitch Miller in the 50s, making novelty records that would have been next to impossible to reproduce live.

[NoSleep]

Not to mention the whole music concrete / avant garde scene's use of the studio.

[the science eel]

What makes them special is the combination of their songwriting skills and studio innovations. Certainly from 1965 onwards. In fact, I'd say that was the single greatest thing about them.

[NoSleep]

What studio innovations?

[Petey Pate]

They went from 'Love Me Do' to 'Tomorrow Never Knows' in under four years - if that's not musical innovation, what is?

I'd call that progression or alteration more than innovation.  Changing your sound is not the same thing as creating a new sound.  It would be a bit like calling Justin Bieber a pioneer because he did one acoustic album.

[the science eel]

What studio innovations?

I could write a list but you're determined to find fault. I'm not wasting my time.

Anybody with even the slightest interest in them as a band could also point out several examples.

[NoSleep]

Name one. Go on. I not "determined to find fault", I'm keen to give credit where it's actually due. Innovation would suggest being the first to do a particular thing.

[the science eel]

The loops on 'Tomorrow Never Knows'.

Deliberate use of feedback on a recording - 'I Feel Fine'.

Backwards vocals - 'Rain'.

[Petey Pate]

Is there any truth to how the Let It Be album was initially inspired by Paul McCartney listening to Cruising With Ruben & Jets (he apparently wrote a letter to Frank Zappa saying how much he loved the album) or is this another one of those Beatles myths?

[ziggy starbucks]

they invented the ringo starr

[NoSleep]

The loops on 'Tomorrow Never Knows'.

Tape loops had been around for decades by then. There's plenty of examples even in the 60's (Stockhausen being the foremost; and the direct inspiration for using tape loops in TNK), but there are loops used in "Symphonie Pour Un Homme Seul" by Schaeffer/Henry from the late 40's.

Deliberate use of feedback on a recording - 'I Feel Fine'.

They saw Pete Townsend doing this and jumped on the idea before I think The Who had even had a chance to get in the studio (they were still the High Numbers, I believe).

Backwards vocals - 'Rain'.

Stockhausen, Music Concrete etc. Always one step behind.

Give me some more, come on.

[Petey Pate]

They saw Pete Townsend doing this and jumped on the idea before I think The Who had even had a chance to get in the studio (they were still the High Numbers, I believe).

That one almost counts, just because they were the first to do it on record (that is if they were the first), even if they didn't originate the idea.

Another thing is that they (Lennon in particular) were very much aware of Stockhausen, so it's not as if they devised his ideas in a separate vacuum.  I think Stockhausen is the only musician other than the Beatles whose image appears on the Sgt. Pepper cover.

[grassbath]

This "innovation" one-upmanship is silly. Everyone has influences. I think there's still credit to due for reappropriating and popularising the methods of the avant-garde in commercial pop music.

[NoSleep]

This "innovation" one-upmanship is silly. Everyone has influences. I think there's still credit to due for reappropriating and popularising the methods of the avant-garde in commercial pop music.

I actually think it was McCartney that had his ear on the avant garde via his friend Miles (no relation to the trumpet player). There was also talk of his collaborating with Daevid Allen, who had been using tape manipulation in his live presentations in London from the early 60s, to say nothing of his half hour long tape work The Switch Doctor, created in 1965 for Tim Souster/BBC Third (later Radio 3).

[NoSleep]

This "innovation" one-upmanship is silly. Everyone has influences. I think there's still credit to due for reappropriating and popularising the methods of the avant-garde in commercial pop music.

But that is distinct from innovating.

[the science eel]

This "innovation" one-upmanship is silly. Everyone has influences. I think there's still credit to due for reappropriating and popularising the methods of the avant-garde in commercial pop music.

What makes them special is the combination of their songwriting skills and studio innovations. Certainly from 1965 onwards. In fact, I'd say that was the single greatest thing about them.

[biggytitbo]

The Beatles not innovators?


A Hard Days Night the film? The music video and stadium rock? Eleanor Rigby and Tomorrow Never knows? Becoming a 'studio band', pioneering or at least perfecting literally dozens of new studio techniques, album covers and printed lyrics, the white album and the whole concept of the white album is still incredibly influential today.


And McCartney is one of the best pop bassists of all time and massively influential on all pop that came since.


And whilst its true that the Beatles where often popularizers as much as pioneers the reason they get so much credit is because they could take all these disparate existing ideas and actually make them work in great pop songs with an immense amount of artistry.

[NoSleep]

Quoting your "studio innovations" quote again as if it were true, science eel. So you're saying they could write a fairly reasonable pop tune and had unlimited time to polish it in a studio?

[the science eel]

No - that's what you're saying.

[biggytitbo]

The loops on 'Tomorrow Never Knows'.

Deliberate use of feedback on a recording - 'I Feel Fine'.

Backwards vocals - 'Rain'.

And the thing everyone overlooks, they might not of done any of these things first but they made better use of them in good songs than anyone else until then.

[NoSleep]

The Beatles not innovators?

You got it.

A Hard Days Night the film? The music video and stadium rock?

Like I said; their main innovation was in marketing.

Eleanor Rigby and Tomorrow Never knows? Becoming a 'studio band', pioneering or at least perfecting literally dozens of new studio techniques, album covers and printed lyrics, the white album and the whole concept of the white album is still incredibly influential today.

You clearly haven't looked at what had come before the White Album. The first Mother's album Freak Out! was a concept double album that came out in 1966 (you know, BEFORE Sgt Peppers even), to say nothing of the Beach Boys. And my challenge to you is tell me something they "innovated" in the studio, let alone "perfected"; it all come down to marketing their product in the end.

And McCartney is one of the best pop bassists of all time and massively influential on all pop that came since.

Influenced by the great James Jamerson, whose sound (but not name) was heard over countless Motown hits (The Beatles, surprise, were big fans of Motown). The poor guy is now properly recognised as the number one bass player of popular music, only after his death in virtual obscurity. Bloody Carol Kaye even tried to take credit for some of his work (which clearly doesn't resemble her style). The number of times I remember reading interviews with bands in the late 60s and early 70s who, when asked who their favourite musicans were, would cite "that bass player on the motown records" (including McCartney).

And whilst its true that the Beatles where often popularizers as much as pioneers the reason they get so much credit is because they could take all these disparate existing ideas and actually make them work in great pop songs with an immense amount of artistry.

I question that simply applying modern recording techniques to marketing the old tin pan alley model of music is the best use for them. The very idea of the song form as the focus of music was being challenged by artists with far more integrity than the Beatles had even considered (John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Ornette Coleman, Sun Ra, etc). The Beatles look far more like the precursors to the Spice Girls in comparison.

[Petey Pate]

A Hard Days Night the film? The music video and stadium rock? Eleanor Rigby and Tomorrow Never knows? Becoming a 'studio band', pioneering or at least perfecting literally dozens of new studio techniques, album covers and printed lyrics, the white album and the whole concept of the white album is still incredibly influential today.

Most of those have nothing to do with their actual music, which is what was being discussed.  No one denies that they were innovators, just that those innovations were in areas related to how music was presented and packaged rather than the music itself.

Whether they were the best at employing the studio techniques mentioned is obviously a matter of opinion.  Real history isn't as subjective.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

Micky Dolenz from The Monkees was one of the first people to play a Moog synthesizer on a pop record, therefore Micky Dolenz from The Monkees wins.

[Talulah, really!]

There were some blokes playing trumpets outside Jericho (and they brought they house down), from which we can conclude Miles Davis ain't worth shit.

Micky Dolenz from The Monkees was one of the first people to play a Moog synthesizer on a pop record, therefore Micky Dolenz from The Monkees wins.

What's Tim Brook Taylor up to behind him?

[NoSleep]

Micky Dolenz from The Monkees was one of the first people to play a Moog synthesizer on a pop record, therefore Micky Dolenz from The Monkees wins.

That's clearly James Brown.