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March 28, 2024, 12:35:14 PM

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#CancelColbert

Started by jutl, March 28, 2014, 10:24:03 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

gabrielconroy

But if you refuse him being able to make character comments because it 'perpetrates' something, then you should refuse him the right to lampoon any given position for the same reason. I also don't agree it perpetrates anything to those in the audience who recognise his real position as being the opposite of what he's saying, ie a very common satirical device.

Subtle Mocking

A lot of people aren't that smart or good-minded to recognise that his character is an oaf. Likewise, people still use the 'what if someone wants to become a dolphin' argument from South Park as if it's a revolutionary opinion to hold about trans people, rather than a ridiculous notion invented by a cartoon to satirise trans people.

gabrielconroy

So are you saying you don't think that satirical device should be used at all, or only in relation to this particular position?

Subtle Mocking

It would be wise to exercise caution when using it, definitely.

terribleidiot

I could disagree with you more.

Also: if some people found it offensive, well then that's fine. It's OK to be offended by something! And it's more than OK for things to be offensive!

onthebeach

What is the satire when referring to transgendered people? Many people still hold ignorant attitudes to that subject and comedy usually reinforces them rather than challenges them, it's a subject where wide audiences don't see the irony yet for me.

Thursday

I think It's fine to be offended and take issue with what Colbert said, but expressing your disgust by contributing to #CancelColbert  hashtag is utterly despicable behaviour.

Sexton Brackets Drugbust

Quote from: onthebeach on March 29, 2014, 01:21:04 PM
What is the satire when referring to transgendered people? Many people still hold ignorant attitudes to that subject and comedy usually reinforces them rather than challenges them, it's a subject where wide audiences don't see the irony yet for me.

The satire is that Colbert is a reactionary right-wing character who says ridiculous right-wing things; this is widely recognised. To add to that, equating transgender people with Transformers is an inherently ridiculous notion and highlights the ignorance of the character and his statement, and therefore the bigoted attitude that many right-wing people themselves hold.

Zetetic

Mm. It's unlike the South Park episode in that respect isn't it? Which seems more to be born out if genuine ignorance of the realities of self-image and dysphoria in humans. (IIRC, of course.)

Sexton Brackets Drugbust

Quote from: Zetetic on March 29, 2014, 02:08:11 PM
Mm. It's unlike the South Park episode in that respect isn't it? Which seems more to be born out if genuine ignorance of the realities of self-image and dysphoria in humans. (IIRC, of course.)

Yes, the South Park episode is a dodgy one full of questionable content. I think at least some of the episode's anger was targeted at the potential dangers of US doctors talking vulnerable people into expensive operations they might not fully understand, but the idea was badly mishandled.

Squink

Quote from: Subtle Mocking on March 29, 2014, 11:54:24 AMIt would be wise to exercise caution when using it, definitely.

Cautionary satire about transgendered people sounds like a total nonstarter to me. Lightly tip-toeing around the subject would probably end up being more offensive.

onthebeach

Quote from: Sexton Brackets Drugbust on March 29, 2014, 01:58:05 PM
The satire is that Colbert is a reactionary right-wing character who says ridiculous right-wing things; this is widely recognised. To add to that, equating transgender people with Transformers is an inherently ridiculous notion and highlights the ignorance of the character and his statement, and therefore the bigoted attitude that many right-wing people themselves hold.

Transphobia isn't a right or left wing issue, though. In no way is it the domain of the right to talk about 'trannies', it's across all areas. That's the problem.

Sexton Brackets Drugbust

Quote from: onthebeach on March 29, 2014, 02:29:06 PM
Transphobia isn't a right or left wing issue, though. In no way is it the domain of the right to talk about 'trannies', it's across all areas. That's the problem.

The right wing are typically associated as being less tolerant of anyone with differences, espousing 'traditional family values' and such. Hence anyone who attempts to demonstrate empathy is branded as being the "loony left" or a "Liberal namby pamby". It's completely within character for a far right fictional figure such as Colbert to fear and decry that which is unfamiliar and out of his own limited personal sphere.

choie

Wow. Thank God people like Subtle Mocking and the #cancelcolbert contingent weren't around to get the vapors over All in the Family.  Archie Bunker would've been forced to sound like Hawkeye Pierce. 

"Colbert" has said outrageous things about black people, Asians, Jews, gays, atheists, and other groups--things that, rather sadly, aren't too far from what actual bigots say.  And that's the whole point.  This is vicious mockery. Taken out of context it's still patently absurd and anyone whose viewpoint is wavering will laugh and hopefully realize the stupidity of it all.  Sure, others will take it as propping up their sick, sad little worldviews.  But those people aren't ever gonna be reachable no matter what anyone says, unfortunately.

Where the hell have all these viewers been for the past decade since Colbert started his routine?  This is not new!  Did they all just get cable for the first time?

Famous Mortimer

But choie, I think you're misrepresenting the thread. Is literally anything and everything Colbert could say covered by his "character"? I don't think it's wrong to look at what he says (even though I think he doesn't appear to be transphobic, from what I've read in this thread).

BeardFaceMan

That bit in The Young Ones, where the copper has dark glasses on and is harassing someone at the door for being black and then takes his glasses off, sees the guy is white and says "Sorry John, I thought you was a n**ger". Uncomfortable? Sure. Funny? Debatable. Racist when taken out of context? Maybe. Necessary for the joke? Absolutely. Because that's the language a policeman at the time would have used so it was the language that needed to be used to satirize it, if he's just said "I thought you were black" it wouldn't make sense as a joke.
If you want to do proper satire you need to use the language of the thing you are satirizing. So when you start satirizing dodgy things, things that come out of your mouth can seem dodgy, especially when taken out of context. Colbert was showing how racism against Native Americans is a big thing in America still because an organization was using a term that people found offensive and highlighted this by doing the exact same thing by substituting Asians for Native Americans. How the fuck anyone can say this is a racist comment must have a single figure IQ. It's perfectly OK to be offended by the joke, it's perfectly fine to find it not funny, or in bad taste or whatever but to call for him to be sacked and calling him a racist is just absurd. The joke wouldn't have worked any other way, it needed to have that kind of language. Doesn't make you a bad person for using it to highlight other peoples inappropriate use of it.

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on March 29, 2014, 04:11:48 PM
But choie, I think you're misrepresenting the thread. Is literally anything and everything Colbert could say covered by his "character"?

Yes, basically. You can critique it but the whole point of Colbert is basically that he says the exact opposite of what he actually believes in order to show up those beliefs. The Colbert Report is a fake right-wing tv show, everything on it is through the frame of that, you are supposed to watch Colbert and disagree with what he says.

Urinal Cake

What's more ridiculous?

An Asian American starting a hashtag because she was offended at a racist jibe and Colbert/his people trying to fight racist fire with racist fire.
Or
Colbert fans so scared of the minor threat that Colbert might be forced to take away some funny some of them have resorted to death threats.

Thomas

Well, when you put it like that and provide only those options, the second, obviously.

Don't see many death threats (or even Colbert fans) here, though. Just the discussion of what satire is and always has been.

Urinal Cake

I come from the vast land Twitter where the people are fast and furious and did not mean to upset the small, calm valley of CaB.

terribleidiot

Twitter is full of arseholes, though.

Hey, I get that we should be all try and be nicer to each other, and not punch down or laugh at people, but I'm also really fucking fed up with the Twittersphere trying to make comedians apologise for their material and making out like being offended by something is a breach of their human rights or something.


Unoriginal

#81
Quote from: Squink on March 29, 2014, 02:25:15 PM
Cautionary satire about transgendered people sounds like a total nonstarter to me. Lightly tip-toeing around the subject would probably end up being more offensive.

Transgender people are dehumanised all the time and this dehumanisation leads to the appalling abuse they receive. You only have to look up some stats on violence against transgender people to realise how awful society's attitude is towards them in most countries. If you make a joke about 'trannies' and many transgender people get offended by it, whether it's meant to be satirical or not, the 'joke' is almost certainly a bad one and I know of just as many 'progressives' whose attitudes towards transgender people are disgusting as right wing types. By perpetuating those attitudes, you are directly contributing to the culture which allows transgender people to be treated like freaks and less than human. As Stewart Lee has said, comedy should always be about punching up not down, and any jokes that belittle the experiences of transgender people are most certainly punching down.




Sexton Brackets Drugbust

What about the jokes that we've been discussing, that demonstrate and highlight the idiocy of those punching down?

George Oscar Bluth II

I think the difference between Colbert doing some ironic racism, and Colbert using transgender people as a punchline is that his audience knows he's not really a racist, his audience knows you can't call people "Chinamen" or "Orientals" or whatever. His audience knows Dan Snyder is a piece of shit and that the Washington Redskins are an embarrassment.

People aren't as clued in on transgender issues though, so it's loads harder to justify doing "ironic" humour about them. And if you look at the jokes he does make about trans people, the punchline isn't "I'm an idiot for saying these idiotic things" like it usually is, the joke is definitely on transgender people themselves.

Sexton Brackets Drugbust

I don't watch Colbert - although I'm aware of the character he's playing - so I can only comment on the examples given in this thread; to my mind, the transsexuals/transformers tweet is most certainly highlighting the ignorance of someone who could possibly think the two were in any way comparable, using their own phrasing against them.

Subtle Mocking

If you'd like something more comprehensive: http://yourmomentofhate.tumblr.com/

And this quote which about sums it up:

QuoteThe way their satire generally works is that they speak in the voice of someone they disagree with in order to illustrate the absurdity of their target's views. Colbert does it all the time, and Stewart does it only occasionally, but they function in basically the same way. That isn't how these jokes are working.

The problem is that in almost all of the instances of transphobia cited on that tumblr, the joke isn't on bigots, it's on trans* people.

Noodle Lizard

To go back a tad, I think people read into that 'South Park' episode a bit too much.  I always took it as "stupid characters doing stupid things egged on by stupid, money-hungry doctors".  I thought it was more of a comment on plastic surgery than anything.

I'm sorry, but Kyle's dad turns himself into a dolphin.  That is hilarious.  I've never seen anyone use it as a case-in-point against sex change operations, though.  Because that would be fucking daft.

Anyway.  This #CancelColbert thing will die on its arse just like everything else of that nature.  It doesn't really deserve that much attention.

Subtle Mocking

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on March 30, 2014, 11:23:20 PM
I'm sorry, but Kyle's dad turns himself into a dolphin.  That is hilarious.  I've never seen anyone use it as a case-in-point against sex change operations, though.  Because that would be fucking daft.

It happens.









Plus, that entire episode seems to imply that trans women are gay men in denial. No matter how ridiculous the premise, that episode attacks trans women's entire validity. How is that anything other than punching down?

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: Subtle Mocking on March 30, 2014, 11:28:34 PM
It happens.

And just when you thought people couldn't be dumb enough ...

Quote from: Subtle MockingPlus, that entire episode seems to imply that trans women are gay men in denial.

Eh ... I took it as implying that Mr Garrison was a gay man in denial (which has been a running joke since the third or fourth episode).  Again, I felt that episode was more character based than making some kind of statement.  It's definitely a shame if people can use it to reinforce their dumb views, but I never got a bad vibe from it.  Maybe I'm just too forgiving because I remember that episode being very funny.

Subtle Mocking

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on March 30, 2014, 11:32:18 PM
Eh ... I took it as implying that Mr Garrison was a gay man in denial (which has been a running joke since the third or fourth episode).  Again, I felt that episode was more character based than making some kind of statement.  It's definitely a shame if people can use it to reinforce their dumb views, but I never got a bad vibe from it.

I suppose we'll agree to disagree. I just couldn't help but find the comparisons with a white kid wanting to be a black guy and his dad wanting to be a dolphin a very unfair way of portraying trans people. They did the whole Mr. Garrison detransitioning thing afterwards, which was nowhere near as bad as the dolphin episode because it represented that gay man in denial facet of his character, rather than a hacky argument (as I saw, we'll likely differ here) against trans people's existence.