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March 28, 2024, 06:09:36 PM

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I admit that that’s rapey behavior. But I am not a rapist.

Started by Urinal Cake, April 19, 2014, 10:55:37 PM

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Big Jack McBastard

I think one might be considered a rapist whilst they're committing a rape, no? They need not be at the Jesters Shoes to qualify for the title.

Conflating rape with paedophilia on the other hand is a bit off as yer philia is an inclination not a physical act, there's millions of people with those thoughts who don't cross the line into molesting/raping kids/hoarding loads of dodgy porn, who'd never get the word applied to them cos they've not actually done owt.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: ndrwkrtn on April 21, 2014, 02:40:12 PM
Don't think it's quite as clear cut as that, i.e. paedophiles aren't only paedophiles once they've carried out their urge to molest a kid. Similarly you could have a person who lives with the constant urge to rape every day, but for whatever reason doesn't/has yet to carry them out. There's quite a strong intuition to say they're a rapist, or at least some kind of yet-to-be-realised one. So I think the point that a kind of minimal requirement for a rapist is that they simply 'feel entitlement' is a good one - even if we also want to say that the sufficient conditions for being a rapist is that they actually have to carry out a rape.

Wow.

I don't think you shouldn't conflate paedophilia with rape as it is going to get very quickly messy for you.

We've actually moved on a long way from making decisions on someone's character by intuition as we have moved on from "criminal types".

But anyway lets remain pragmatic.

Could you highlight any potential problems that might arise from calling someone a rapist that has not committed the act of rape?

ndrwkrtn

comparing not conflating. and then comparing on the specific point - that we could might be able to call someone a rapist based on their 'feeling entitlement/owership' (though my own feeling is that might be a necessary but not sufficient condition for being a rapist) with the tendency to label someone a paedophile even if they have not committed act.

what i'm not saying, which you have said i did, was that paedophilia, in its particular motivational make-up, is like the urge to rape.

what's with the fight-or-flight mode of argument trenterpercenter? big jack made the same point and didn't have to do that keyboard hero condescension there. and i've responded to your point, no need for histrionics dude

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Big Jack McBastard on April 21, 2014, 04:27:51 PM
I think one might be considered a rapist whilst they're committing a rape, no? They need not be at the Jesters Shoes to qualify for the title.

Conflating rape with paedophilia on the other hand is a bit off as yer philia is an inclination not a physical act, there's millions of people with those thoughts who don't cross the line into molesting/raping kids/hoarding loads of dodgy porn, who'd never get the word applied to them cos they've not actually done owt.

No to be a rapist you definitely have to have raped someone, its a legal term meaning exactly that, someone that you think is likely to rape can be something else (indeed it would come under a highly controversial area of psychology known as philias)  but they are not a rapist, not even in the metaphysical sense until they have committed rape.





Buelligan

Would it be frowned upon, considered bad form, if one mentioned that using double negatives is viewed by some as a virtual rape of the English language?  I do hope not.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: ndrwkrtn on April 21, 2014, 05:01:10 PM
comparing not conflating. and then comparing on the specific point - that we could might be able to call someone a rapist based on their 'feeling entitlement/owership' (though my own feeling is that might be a necessary but not sufficient condition for being a rapist) with the tendency to label someone a paedophile even if they have not committed act.

what i'm not saying, which you have said i did, was that paedophilia, in its particular motivational make-up, is like the urge to rape.

what's with the fight-or-flight mode of argument trenterpercenter? big jack made the same point and didn't have to do that keyboard hero condescension there. and i've responded to your point, no need for histrionics dude

Sorry, it was not intended to be "histronic", I was just a little bemused by what you said.

You didn't answer my point btw.

Could you highlight any potential problems that might arise from calling someone a rapist that has not committed the act of rape?

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Buelligan on April 21, 2014, 05:06:07 PM
Would it be frowned upon, considered bad form, if one mentioned that using double negatives is viewed by some as a virtual rape of the English language?  I do hope not.


That'll be me with my dyslexic tendencies.  Does this count as a rape joke though?

Buelligan

Yes, that was my concern.  What a fine line we do tread.

ndrwkrtn

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on April 21, 2014, 05:09:55 PM

You didn't answer my point btw.

Could you highlight any potential problems that might arise from calling someone a rapist that has not committed the act of rape?

thats not a point its a question


Big Jack McBastard

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on April 21, 2014, 05:04:47 PM
No to be a rapist you definitely have to have raped someone, its a legal term meaning exactly that, someone that you think is likely to rape can be something else (indeed it would come under a highly controversial area of psychology known as philias)  but they are not a rapist, not even in the metaphysical sense until they have committed rape.

Hmm, so what if the mofo in question has beaten their victim insensible and stuck his dick in, with the intention of finishing, gets within two pumps, but doesn't actually manage it because someone cracks him over the head with a rock before he shoots his bolt?

Would the perpetrator only be charged with sexual assault?

Sexton Brackets Drugbust

It seems disturbing that modern, casual usage of the word 'rape' seems to have somehow partially divorced the word itself from its horrific meaning, for some people. That a person could use the term 'rapey behaviour' in an attempt to remove blame from their unacceptable actions, as if it's a preferred alternative, suggests they think it's merely equatable to being a bit pervy/lairy; a bit of a lad.

Big Jack McBastard

It's as fine to call someone a paedophile as it would be to label someone a rapeo-phile (whatever that's called) cos both refer to what's going on in their heads and hard drives as opposed to the actual acts of child molestation/rape, or just plain old rape.

A paedo might be the one cracking a child molester in the mush with the rock to stop their fucked up actions, it's even less cut and dry than before.

ndrwkrtn

QuoteHmm, so what if the mofo in question has beaten their victim insensible and stuck his dick in, with the intention of finishing, gets within two pumps, but doesn't actually manage it because someone cracks him over the head with a rock before he shoots his bolt?

Would the perpetrator only be charged with sexual assault?

I guess he'd be a rapist because he managed the non-consensual penetratin', which is the 'big event' itself, finishing not required. of course, this defers the problem to 'when is it in?'


Big Jack McBastard


TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Big Jack McBastard on April 21, 2014, 05:32:40 PM
Hmm, so what if the mofo in question has beaten their victim insensible and stuck his dick in, with the intention of finishing, gets within two pumps, but doesn't actually manage it because someone cracks him over the head with a rock before he shoots his bolt?

Would the perpetrator only be charged with sexual assault?

No rape is dependant on penetration.

How about if the mofo did nothing to the victim other than think they could?  because that is the point.  thoughts do not equal actions and i speak as someone that has worked with people that have problems controlling their thoughts.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Sexton Brackets Drugbust on April 21, 2014, 05:44:45 PM
It seems disturbing that modern, casual usage of the word 'rape' seems to have somehow partially divorced the word itself from its horrific meaning, for some people. That a person could use the term 'rapey behaviour' in an attempt to remove blame from their unacceptable actions, as if it's a preferred alternative, suggests they think it's merely equatable to being a bit pervy/lairy; a bit of a lad.

Agreed its vile and disgusting.

There is room for degrees of vileness and disgust, shoehorning everything under one banner is problematic for society and victims included.


Birdie

So if someone is convicted of attempted rape, they aren't a rapist?

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Birdie on April 21, 2014, 09:16:47 PM
So if someone is convicted of attempted rape, they aren't a rapist?

Err no, they are convicted of attempted rape.

Is someone that is convicted of attempted murder a murderer?


ndrwkrtn

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on April 21, 2014, 09:14:34 PM
ok a question, care to answer?

i was hoping you would just tell me what you have in mind - you're not a teacher, walking me through the critical thinking process; i can recognise when a good point is made. if i'm discussing something with people and i think they've missed/not accounted for something i don't say 'would you care to explain to me what point you're missing?', cos that's condescending - help us out if we're wrong. i'm not being a pussy/touchy/confrontational here either - i love argument/discussion but just have standards as to what sort of manner i engage with, cos i wouldn't adopt that sort of manner myself - it just gets peoples backs up

tookish

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on April 21, 2014, 09:10:49 PM
No rape is dependant on penetration.

How about if the mofo did nothing to the victim other than think they could?  because that is the point.  thoughts do not equal actions and i speak as someone that has worked with people that have problems controlling their thoughts.

I would say that somebody who struggles to control those thoughts needs to engage with psychiatric care, both for themselves, and also because it does present a safeguarding issue.

Personally - and I apologise if I'm misreading your point, it's not wilful - I can't see that there's really an appropriate way to quantify sexual abuse; penetration is obviously not the only form of sexual assault, and to call it the most heinous would be incredibly dismissive of those who are assaulted in other ways. The level of damage caused by sexual assault isn't directly proportional to the level of physical contact. (Personal experience to follow, horrible stuff under spoilers.) I have found the memories of being
Spoiler alert
kissed and fondled as a child
[close]
much more distressing and difficult to overcome than having been
Spoiler alert
violently raped
[close]
.

It doesn't seem that it would be helpful to survivors of sexual assault for those actions to be quantified - it would largely serve to make people who had 'only' experienced level one, feel like their experiences were tiny and insignificant in comparison to people who had experienced level ten.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: tookish on April 21, 2014, 09:37:21 PM
I would say that somebody who struggles to control those thoughts needs to engage with psychiatric care, both for themselves, and also because it does present a safeguarding issue.

Personally - and I apologise if I'm misreading your point, it's not wilful - I can't see that there's really an appropriate way to quantify sexual abuse; penetration is obviously not the only form of sexual assault, and to call it the most heinous would be incredibly dismissive of those who are assaulted in other ways. The level of damage caused by sexual assault isn't directly proportional to the level of physical contact. (Personal experience to follow, horrible stuff under spoilers.) I have found the memories of being
Spoiler alert
kissed and fondled as a child
[close]
much more distressing and difficult to overcome than having been
Spoiler alert
violently raped
[close]
.

It doesn't seem that it would be helpful to survivors of sexual assault for those actions to be quantified - it would largely serve to make people who had 'only' experienced level one, feel like their experiences were tiny and insignificant in comparison to people who had experienced level ten.

This is stepping wildly from the point, which was about thinking of entitlement compared to actual abuse.

Do you think that is true of most rape victims that they consider their experience of actual rape the same as someone who has had someone think that they are entitled their body but not acted on it?

EDIT: Sorry to hear about your experience, I am in no way trying to diminish any of the things that have happened to yourself (it is a subject close to me as well).

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: ndrwkrtn on April 21, 2014, 09:34:39 PM
i was hoping you would just tell me what you have in mind - you're not a teacher, walking me through the critical thinking process; i can recognise when a good point is made. if i'm discussing something with people and i think they've missed/not accounted for something i don't say 'would you care to explain to me what point you're missing?', cos that's condescending - help us out if we're wrong. i'm not being a pussy/touchy/confrontational here either - i love argument/discussion but just have standards as to what sort of manner i engage with, cos i wouldn't adopt that sort of manner myself - it just gets peoples backs up

Got bored, sorry there are many more people on here that might want to discuss rather than be a pedant about semantics.

Sorry if I was initially condescending.  Bye.

tookish

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on April 21, 2014, 09:50:48 PM
This is stepping wildly from the point, which was about thinking of entitlement compared to actual abuse.

Do you think that is true of most rape victims that they consider their experience of actual rape the same as someone who has had someone think that they are entitled their body but not acted on it?

EDIT: Sorry to hear about your experience, I am in no way trying to diminish any of the things that have happened to yourself (it is a subject close to me as well).


Apologies for missing the point; I'm afraid I don't know how one would quantify entitlement either. As for your second question, I don't know either. I personally try not to draw comparisons of any kind; trauma is trauma, and if somebody is equally traumatised by having had a near miss than by experiencing a violent sexual attack, I'd never question that.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: tookish on April 21, 2014, 09:59:20 PM
Apologies for missing the point; I'm afraid I don't know how one would quantify entitlement either. As for your second question, I don't know either. I personally try not to draw comparisons of any kind; trauma is trauma, and if somebody is equally traumatised by having had a near miss than by experiencing a violent sexual attack, I'd never question that.
True and I don't disagree, though trauma in its essence is subjective (that in no way means that it is irrelevant by its not quantifiable nature).

That is why I'm saying trying to over simplify these things isn't useful.  Thinking of people as rapists on the notion that, we think, that they are thinking about being entitled to someones body is seriously dodgy ground, it is why we have a legal system that has developed to be proportionate to crimes i.e. we used have capital punishment for virtually every crime, then just for murder now we can see that our actions on the side of and in the name of justice has a bearing on society and of course the possibility of erroneous convictions.

In regards to prevention and helping victims this is unhelpful.  If i had my highly vindictive hat on I would be tempted to say its an emotive topic that hacks can get clicks on, practically its nothing.

Energy would be better spent on improving funding into resources and evidence gathering in cases and support for victims.  If we want to educate men then I agree but someone needs to do a proper study, not looking at it from a female perspective (if considering male rape) not because "der wimmin" can't do it or that rape shouldn't be considered from a female perspective but in order to determine effective interventions then the subject matter needs to be engaged and understood.


Urinal Cake

Quote from: Mark Steels Stockbroker on April 20, 2014, 07:46:27 AM
You'll have to deduct huge legal fees from that soon.
It's going to be difficult since it's dependant on his testimony alone. His victim is 'Rose' working in a sector with a high turnover who possibly wasn't working legally, possibly in another state.

Noodle Lizard

I think you have to have quite a lot of conviction to be a rapist (not in a good way, obviously).  I think it's far less likely for someone to suddenly rape someone when things get heated if they're not generally that kind of person, whereas the quietest and friendliest man could realistically punch someone in the face if pushed.

The fact that you need to maintain an erection whilst ignoring the possible consequences and definite moral doom of raping someone makes me think these people must really not give a fuck.  I can't maintain an erection if I think my dishwasher's going to start beeping in the middle of it.

So I don't really know where I stand on people with rape fantasies and such.  As long as it stays in your head, that's all fine, but I don't know ... I don't know.

tookish

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on April 22, 2014, 03:10:59 AM
I think you have to have quite a lot of conviction to be a rapist (not in a good way, obviously).  I think it's far less likely for someone to suddenly rape someone when things get heated if they're not generally that kind of person, whereas the quietest and friendliest man could realistically punch someone in the face if pushed.

I think to be a violent rapist, yes. There needs to be a lot of conviction there. And an adult abuser of children needs to have a certain amount of cunning and there's often a lot of planning and gaslighting surrounding these instances, largely because it's not within the majority of most children's nature to keep a secret like that without some kind of threat or other impetus to do so.

But a lot of sexual abuse occurs in a domestic setting and as a result of coercion. Lots of rapists and abusers would not actually consider what they have done to be abuse or assault of any kind.[nb]There's a tonne of studies to this effect; I will link at a more decent hour but this is not a good hour of the morning to be researching sexual assault. [/nb] To them it might be being a bit pushy, or maybe not being totally sure that it was wanted. That's still sexual assault though. I suppose it is a kind of conviction though, the ability to talk oneself around and convince oneself that it's okay.

While I am certainly not somebody who would ever want to hand any kind of excuse to a perpetrator of sexual abuse, I think a huge amount of coercive sexual assault comes partly as a result of the absolute lack of appropriate sexual education. I do not remember being told at any point during my compulsory sex ed about the nuances of consent. I don't know anybody else who was told about it either. I actually only know so much about it because I am very anxious not to ever take advantage having been taken advantage of myself. Which is FUCKED. I, and everyone my age, should have been taught this shit, not how to put a condom on a sodding test tube.

Obviously people ultimately make the decision whether or not to keep going when they're not totally sure, but still, I think that sex ed needs to be completely revised and expanded exponentially.

Why the fuck are teenagers not being taught about consent, about sex for pleasure and the value of intimacy?! Why would that be obscene? Surely it's far more obscene to think that we're sending generation after generation out into the world with very little idea of how asking for sex will actually work?! I recall being told absolute bollocks about how short skirts and long hair will make you get raped - nothing at all about how to establish boundaries of consent within a relationship. It makes me so fucking angry.

TrenterPercenter

Sex education like mental health education is completely bereft in schools.

I think the nuances of consent would be pretty hard to teach tbf, I remember being taught "no, means no" at school but that is hardly the nuances.