Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 28, 2024, 06:55:05 PM

Login with username, password and session length

The Real Frank Zappa Thread

Started by alan strang, September 02, 2004, 05:18:34 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

alan strang

QuoteMaybe you thought I was the Packard Goose
Or the Ronald McDonald of the Nouveau Abstruse
Well fuck all them people I don't need no excuse
For being what I am

'Packard Goose' - Joe's Garage Acts II + III

So what was Frank Zappa?

Speaking for myself, Zappa has been a constant presence in my life since I was a toddler. My family owned three Mothers LPs - 'Absolutely Free' and two copies of 'We're Only In It For The Money' (one mono, one stereo - it used to fascinate me, spotting the differences between the two. Still does in fact). At primary school age I used to play 'The Chrome-Plated Megaphone Of Destiny' and 'Nasal Rententive Calliope Music' to friends between the Madness singles and watch their confused expressions in tandem with the squirts, pops, hisses and belches coming from the little Bush record player.

During adolescence a mate of my father's taped me some of the post-Mothers LPs (not to mention a later pressing of 'We're Only...' which featured bits which were censored on the original UK release) and I was in raptures. I was even more amazed when I discovered just how many LPs Zappa had actually made. So much 'stuff' to hunt down and enjoy. There are still a few LPs I've not heard and this pleases me in a way - the fact that there's always a bit more Zappa out there, waiting.

I love his attitude, his working methods, his refusal to be part of any perceived rock establishment, his humour, his incredible music. The fact that he's no longer physically here to continue that work makes me feel very sad.

'We're Only In It For The Money' will always remain my all-time favourite LP.

So, Zappa fans unite.

Neville Chamberlain

Now, I need educating about Zappa. In theory, I should love him. Zappa's always quoted as an influence on a lot of my favourite bands (my favourite band being the mighty Cardiacs).

But where the hell is this Zappa who's so beloved of my own personal musical heroes? The odd random leaps I've made into Zappa's back catalogue have always left me shaking my head thinking "what utter bollocks". Doo-wop? Boring trad rock? That fucking "I'm So Gay" song? Some other bloody awful song about a "dangerous kitchen" or something? Give me a break!

The trouble is, I know I'm making all the wrong choices when I dive into his discography. It's massive, daunting, I don't know where to start. I know there are some gems in there, but where? Actually, I've heard "Uncle Meat" might be a good one for a Cardiacs fan...and the Cardiacs guitarist Jon Poole has made an album of Zappa covers, which is supposed to be almost legendary in its brilliance. Maybe that'd be a good start...

alan strang

You could do worse than starting, as I did, with 'Absolutely Free' (1967) and 'We're Only In It For The Money' (1968).



I was listening to the former again last night, and it serves as a particularly good introduction to The Mothers era (probably a little moreso than Uncle Meat, which sprawls a bit). Side Two of 'Absolutely Free' features a tight suite of segued songs about the latent creepiness of Americana which strikes me as potentially being right up any Cardiacs fan's street.

'The Lost Episodes' is a good intro LP too - studio out-takes from pre-Mothers to late-80s and beyond.

Neville Chamberlain

Thanks! My first ever concrete Zappa recommendations. Sound good I have to say. I'll have a look at what's knocking about in the shops after work...

Dirty Boy

A brief thread from a while back where i said

QuoteI think Uncle Meat would have to be my favourite, closely followed by One Size Fits All and The Grand Wazoo, but i like most of the early stuff and various other bits and bobs.I never had a geat deal of interest in his post-70's material though, slick disco rock with 40 minute guitar solo's become boring for me real fast


...so, to Jim i'd say check out the early to mid-seventies releases.Uncle Meat is imo most reminiscent of the early Cardiacs with it's chop change stlye, use of novel instrumentation and demented lyrics, but you may also like Weasels Ripped My Flesh which is less 'deranged music hall' but  is still, frankly, mental and has one of my favourite Zappa compositions Prelude To The Afternoon Of A Sexually Aroused Gasmask which i always used to stick  first on compilation tapes for other people/play to mates who'd never heard any Zappa and is probably the best thing to play to convince everyone else you've finally gone insane :-D

one size fits all is a bit slicker but no less inventive.There's some more rock'n'roll and doo-wop bits thrown in and a slight streamlining of the sound, but Inca Roads and Flourentine Pogen should keep fans of mad time changes and stupid lyrics happy.

Elsewhere try...
The Grand Wazoo or Waka/Jawaka for big band jazz
Apostrophy! for conceptual prog
Lumpy Gravy for mad sound experiments and random dialouge from inside  a piano
We're Only In It For The Money for being the one everybody always recommends
The Best Band You Never Heard In Your Life which has great live versions of a lot of early material

petercussing

Quote'We're Only In It For The Money' will always remain my all-time favourite LP.

Agreed. It was my first Zappa album and remains one of my bestest albums ever. Genius, and it pisses on Sgt. Peppers. Freaking phoney hippies.

Almost Yearly

I listened to a programme by Humphrey Littleton on R4 t'other week about the relationship between comedy and jazz, with regard to timing and improvisation. Of course, with it being Humph he didn't stray anywhere near Uncle Frank, but it was a good programme if anyone wants to find it in the archives.

I was going to attempt to answer Jim by saying that what musicians see in Zappa, outside of his silly lyrics and incessant noodling, is his holistic compositional genius, but then I find myself immediately stranded in some quite pretentious territory for which I am clearly wearing the wrong heels.

So I'll just say this: Chad Wackerman is not human.


Anagrams of Humphrey Littleton:

One-up, little rhythm?  
Hi! They'll trumpet on.
The limp, holy nutter.


Me, I rather like the eighties stuff. Not many contexts I can say that in. Does Humor Belong In Music is one of the best live music videos I've ever seen, and that's all the corniest material and as digitally mastered as you like. Amazing performances from the whole band.


He was given cancer by the Feds, like that Bill Hicks.

phoresy

I've always found the stuff from the '88 tour to be my favourites. The musicianship and arrangements are phenomenal. You've got the instrumental stuff on 'Make a jazz noise here', great covers on 'The best band you never heard in your life' and the political stuff on 'Broadway the hardway' which was my first Zappa album and probably my favourite.  I guess the amount of effort and thought that needed to be put into a project the size of the '88 tour is what makes Zappa stand out for lots of people (especially when you consider that he'd been doing it for at least 20 years previously).

I suppose there is also the fact that you can never be 100% sure what you're going to get with a Zappa album. My second album was 'Civilization Phaze III' which was completely different from the first, but was still really enjoyable. This is before you even get to the guitar playing, recording techniques, stances on censorship/politics and sheer output of work.

I suppose a good place to start would be 'Strictly Commercial or even 'Strictly Genteel', just to get a good idea of his range. Or you could just have a look on Soulseek I suppose.

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten

The best thing about Zappa is that the moment you start thinking mid-song 'Ah, he's doing this kind of thing, I see', you suddenly realise he's changed direction completely. He's always several miles ahead of you.

We're Only In It For The Money is just extraordinary - in terms of humour, political content, editing, catchiness of tunes (often several in each song), eeriness, harmonies, bits of dialogue popping up between tracks...everything. Why aren't more albums like that? The sheer *care* that's been put into it is breathtaking in itself. Especially considering it was made in pre-Sgt Pepper 1967 (is that right?).

I'd also recommend Sheik Yerbouti and You Are What You Is for good starting points.

Random orgasmic Zappa moment: 'Which is usually SMPTE...which stands for Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers' (Baby Snakes)

I'm convinced the Zappa-haters only dislike him because he's too good.

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten

Actually, it can't have been pre-Sgt Pepper since it spoofs the cover can it? Dur.

TJ

Why has no-one mentioned "Hot Rats" yet?

lazyhour


alan strang

Listening to 'We're Only...' again at the moment. The cut between the song 'Absolutely Free' and 'Flower Punk' must surely be the most exciting segue in rock.

Quote from: "petercussing"Agreed. It was my first Zappa album and remains one of my bestest albums ever. Genius, and it pisses on Sgt. Peppers. Freaking phoney hippies.

Have you ever heard the 1987 remix? The one which features all the drums and bass tracks replaced by members of the 80s line-up - it featured on the Old Masters vinyl set and the first CD release (coupled with 'Lumpy Gravy'). An interesting exercise, especially in terms of hearing even more uncensored bits and pieces, but not nearly as punchy as the original.

Also, the surf music which pops up just before 'Let's Make The Water Turn Black' (before the stylus scrapes all over the shop). Ever heard the full version? 'Heavies' by The Rotations. It pops up on a few of the Cucamonga CDs.

I had to really work to get into Zappa. My first purchase was Sheik Yerbouti on vinyl, but only because Adrian Belew (of King Crimson) was on it. I seem to remember listening to the first 2 sides and then giving up on it.

But people kept saying how great Zappa was so I had to give him another try. Bought the cheapo sampler "Son Of Cheep Thrills" and still hated him. Doo-wop? Aimless guitar noodling?

Eventually, I bought Sheik Yerbouti because it was in a format that I loved (imported japanese mini-LP sleeve - basically the original artwork for the vinyl perfectly replicated for CDs) and just kind of "got it".

Since that day, I have bought 59 of his albums. There's about 10 more albums of original material that I haven't got yet, most of it released after his death, but no doubt I'll get them one day. If you don't like him yet, don't worry - you will.


So album recommendations...

The Grand Wazoo
Roxy & Elsewhere
Zappa In New York
Sheik Yerbouti
We're Only In It For The Money
Absolutely Free
Fillmore East, June 1971

That should do to start off with. Whatever you do, DON'T get Just Another Band From L.A. which for some reason just won't grow on me, no matter what I do. Probably the only Zappa album I can comfortably say is shit (but as I've illustrated above, it's possible to think that and then later for it to be your favourite album). Good luck.

petercussing

I havent heard that 'Heavies' track is it good? He seems like he hates it.

One bit that never fails to crack me up is the bit where it does the "...and now for a little bit of TH heaven" and then does that weird noise/ reversed vocal (bowper pow  bowpup it the closest i could come to writing it down).

'We only in it..' was remarkable because of how it used effects and tape splicing techniques. It was more like elcetro acoustic music at points, like Stockhausen (or however its spelled). And the tracks blend together better than Sgt Peppers and i think developes and invents new and more interesting studio  techniques than the Beatles did. It is also much better compositionally as well. Sometimes i find it hard to believe that it was made in 1968 and find it hard to understand why it is so overlooked.

I also like it because he berates modern trends, like being a hippy just to be cool.

Zappa=Fantastico!

I also heard that when Zappa owned his own studio in the 80's he made an album every two weeks at one point.

alan strang

Quote from: "petercussing"I havent heard that 'Heavies' track is it good? He seems like he hates it.

Well he produced it so I suspect he has a certain fondness! I can't remember who the group actually was - probably just one bloke at Studio Z overdubbing himself. He re-used a lot of those early studio pieces in fragmented form over the years.

Edit: Just checked - 'Heavies' was recorded at Studio Z but it was mainly the work and production of Zappa's mate Paul Buff (who originally owned the studio). The 'group' was Buff and Dave Aerni.

And yes, it's pretty good.

QuoteOne bit that never fails to crack me up is the bit where it does the "...and now for a little bit of TH heaven" and then does that weird noise/ reversed vocal (bowper pow  bowpup it the closest i could come to writing it down).

The voice of the nasally-challenged Ronnie Williams (a mate of Zappa's whose family is immortalised on 'Let's Make The Water Turn Black'). Get hold of 'The Lost Episodes' - the full version of the reversed vocal song is on there as 'Ronnie Sings?' - playing forwards.

QuoteI also like it because he berates modern trends, like being a hippy just to be cool

Indeed. And 'Packard Goose' does a pretty good job demolishing the rock journos who leapt on the late-70s 'new wave' just to make themselves look ahead of the game.

You don't get that level of cynicism from anyone else in the business.

Silver SurferGhost

Hmmm well, the first Zappa album I heard in it's entirety was Weasels Ripped My Flesh, and I reckon that's as good an intro to his oeuvre as owt else what with it's diverse nature and that. Also if I remember rightly, it was the one relatively inexpensive Zappa LP you could find in the early 80s, so you wouldn't be wasting a great deal of money if you didn't like it. And I liked the cover.
For a long time though my only real favourites there were the mental bit in Toads of The Short Forest, Oh No and My Guitar Wants to Kill Your Mama...but something kept making me come back to hear it all through and the pieces that didn't overly-impress me on first hearing (like The Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbecue) are now the best.
What I'm trying to say is, Zappa can take years to 'get', and sometimes only by the most circuitous of routes. I still have trouble with most of those 20-minute guitar solos for example, but then I'm not a musician.

That said, my favourite Zappa LP is still Overnite Sensation, one of his most 'ordinary' albums, and perhaps that would be the best introduction for the more casual listener. Just don't expect much more of the same.

My favourites:

Overnite Sensation
Weasels Ripped My Flesh
Hot Rats
Absolutely Free
We're Only in it For The Money
The Fillmore East one with the blokes out of the Turtles on it
The You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore sampler LP
And I also have a sneaking affection for the Beefheart collaboration, Bongo Fury...

But then as has already been said, I haven't heard them all and I don't know anyone else who has either...
.

Harfyyn Teuport

My Zappa knowledge is absolutely minute, but I was wondering what his more electronic stuff would be.

I heard a brief snatch of one track by him that had a massive, chunky great big breakbeat running over what sounded like bagpipes or a really filthy organ. It really appealed to me at the time, and I've yet to find anything by Zappa even remotely like it. I think it may have been on Never Mind The Buzzcocks I heard it played, on one of the Connection game rounds.

And I'm pretty sure that Lamarr introduced him as something like  "weirdo hippy rockster and big beat pioneer, Frank Zappa".

Any thoughts as to what I might be referring?

benthalo

It's probably worth drawing everyone's attention to Radio 3 tomorrow night. There's a Jazz On 3 special from 23:45 - 01:00 which will feature a get together of the Zappa band to mark the tenth anniversary of his death.

Muel 2

Mothers of  Invention = mostly excellent
Frank Zappa solo = mostly rubbish

I haven't heard every Zappa lp but I've heard a hell of alot of them and some of the smutty 80s Zappa is quite fun and amusing and he did lots of interesting stuff post (first incarnation) 'Mothers'.  But 'Uncle Meat', 'Weasels..' and '..Money' are the best I've heard by a long shot.

Zappa virgins, do not be put off by the reems of shit albums.

alan strang

Quote from: "Muel 2"Zappa virgins, do not be put off by the reems of shit albums.

Where do you stand on Flo & Eddie, just out of interest?

Muel 2

Quote from: "alan strang"
Where do you stand on Flo & Eddie, just out of interest?
I haven't heard anything that they did away from Zappa and I think the only Mothers one with them I've heard is 200 Motels. Which I like alot.

Quote from: "Muel 2"Mothers of  Invention = mostly excellent
Frank Zappa solo = mostly rubbish

Note: This is wrong.

alan strang

Quote from: "DevlinC"
Quote from: "Muel 2"Mothers of  Invention = mostly excellent
Frank Zappa solo = mostly rubbish

Note: This is wrong.

There are so many different pockets of Zappa fandom plucking the best bits from all directions. Hardly surprising with a body of work so vast and diverse.

I mentioned Flo & Eddie earlier because a lot of original Mothers fans strongly maintain he lost his way after 1970 - when he dismantled the original group (with its pseudo artistic leanings and proto-Punk attitude) and started doing more straightforward, scatalogical 'comedy-music' material.

I love the 1971 touring band and the stuff that's been released. 'Playground Psychotics', a double CD which features live recordings interspersed with backstage/motel room audio amusement, is one of my favourites - but it pissed off the 'anti' camp something awful. "Why couldn't it have been a single CD with music only!", they said.

Because if it had been a single CD we wouldn't have gotten to hear Aynsley Dunbar eyeing up some young fans and pondering "Are they penetratable?" We wouldn't have heard Mark Volman getting annoyed at having a pint of beer poured over his head during a show ("He ruined my shoes, man!"). And we wouldn't have heard Zappa asking the manager of the Edgewater Inn whether he'd ever found fish blood on the sheets of his guests' beds ("Er, not identifiable as such, no...")

God, I love that CD.

Clinton Morgan

Quote from: "Emergency Lalla Ward Ten"Actually, it can't have been pre-Sgt Pepper since it spoofs the cover can it? Dur.


'We're Only In It For The Money' wasn't intended as an out and out spoof of Sgt Pepper. A few of the tracks were written years before 1967. For example 'Take Your Clothes Off When You Dance' was composed around '62/'63 and was originally called 'I'm So Happy I Could Cry'. Also it was to be called 'Our Man In Nirvana' and to be a mixture of Mothers of Invention music and Lenny Bruce routines. I don't know any more information but one can assume that the Lenny material ended up on The Berkeley Concert. Which isn't as bad as some critics make it to be.

I suppose hardcore Zappa fanatics don't mention Hot Rats (albeit they get excited when he plays Peaches En Regalia and Willie The Pimp in concert) because it's a Korma whilst his other albums can reach the giddy heights of a Dansak, a Vindaloo, a Tindaloo and a Faaal. It is a great album but it is tainted with the lazy critical phrasing "the only good album Frank Zappa ever made." The thing about Frank Zappa music is that it has to be listened to, even the more jokey albums, it is not background music.

I might ask "Why hasn't anybody mentioned Freak Out!?" Now, that is a damn fine album. We all read realms of Mojo gush about 'Pet Sounds' but 'Freak Out!' is in danger of being forgotten. The Mothers of Invention's debut album is up there with Brian Wilson's meisterwerk and The Velvet Underground and Nico. And if you want to know how good it really is then go and get yourself a copy of 'Joe's Corsage'.

Incidentally the greatest album on Earth is Captain Beefheart and His Magic Band's 'Trout Mask Replica'  and don't let anyone say otherwise.

'Don't you mean 'Garage'?' I hear you say. No, I mean 'Joe's Corsage'. It is a 35 minute CD of Mothers demos and live performances featuring Henry Vestine who later joined Canned Heat.  Compare the demo recordings to the tracks on 'Freak Out!' and you will go 'Wowie Zowie'.

There have been recent posthumous (mostly) mail-order releases from the Zappa vault (mainly under the label Vaulternative Records) and they are........

FRANK ZAPPA PLAYS THE MUSIC OF FRANK ZAPPA
(His signature pieces 'Black Napkins', 'Zoot Allures' and 'Watermelon In Easter Hay' which include the earliest recorded versions of those instrumentals plus a bonus track 'Merely A Blues In A'

EVERYTHING IS HEALING NICELY
Play this one before The Yellow Shark and you'll see how hard the Ensemble Modern worked. These are the rehearsals for the famous Frankfurt concerts and is mostly unused and original material. My favourite tracks are 'Nap Time' (a very serene piece using a Swiss horn) and '9/8 Objects' (jiggeroony stuff) There are also readings from Piercing Fans International Quarterly

FZ:OZ
(or Live In Australia) A concert in Sydney from 1976. Includes the unreleased and yet brilliant 'Kaiser Rolls'. Kicks the shit out of Ziggy playing his fucking guitar.

HALLOWEEN
A DVD-A of concerts from 1978. Extras include 'Dancin' Fool' on Saturday Night Live and 'Suicide Chump' a more bluesy early version sung by Denny Walley.

JOE'S CORSAGE
See above

and on September 14th there will be qUADIOPHILIAc. Another DVD-A. This time a documentary of Zappa's quad sound experiments.

Some find Zappa's comedy music annoying. Comedy is difficult and music is no exception. But doing comedy music allows you to be creative with different sounds. If Frank Zappa's songs were of a more sombre note it would be difficult to use musical quotations, sound effects or get the audience to sing-along. Maybe there is a gloom-doom-manic-depression performer that uses quotes from Bizet's Carmen, a sound of a belch and gets the audience to chant 'Dinah Moe' and if there is let me know.

Frank Zappa neither fits in the world of Classic Gold FM nostalgia ("And now pop-pickers remember this one from 1973, heeere's Frank Zappa and The Mothers pickin' up the ol' dennil floss and they're movin' to montana." ) nor does he fit within the world of the 'serious' chin-stroking music fan. The one who has Revolver, Pet Sounds, Songs In The Key of Life, Legend: The Best of Bob Marley, The Velvet Underground and Nico, and Marquee Moon in their collection. I'm not saying these albums are terrible, just that there are some lazy people who like to tick the boxes off a list. Then again I can't talk as I've just purchased 'Sunrise: A Song of Two Humans' and 'Persona' and isn't *that* box-ticking in the film fan world?

In one interview Zappa was asked why did he do orchestral concerts since he is not in the world of classical music.  His response that some people don't consider him to be in the world of rock music either.

It took me a decade to buy all of Frank Zappa's albums (including the Beat The Boots material). Originally I was only going to buy a few, I was going to steer clear of the guitar solo records. At the time I thought they were noisy shit, now I love them and can hear the soul of the great genius. It is best to check things out for yourself, DO NOT LISTEN TO ADVICE. I haven't been listening to Zappa for a while until recently and, like Kellogg's Cornflakes, I've forgotten how good he tastes. A bit like the late, great Ethel Merman. The more I listen the more I am convinced that he is up there with Pablo Picasso. A true original and Lou Reed was right to feel bad about slagging him off. Maybe that started the whole 'Zappa is crap' nonsense.

Jon Poole's 'What's The Ugliest Part of Your Body?' is fandabadozy ,go out and get yourself a copy but also get the original  Mothers of Invention albums to compare and realise the extent of the album's brilliance. It isn't just a recording of covers you know.

Now go to http://www.gandsmusic.com and http://www.zappa.com

Dirty Boy

QuoteLou Reed was right to feel bad about slagging him off. Maybe that started the whole 'Zappa is crap' nonsense.


What exactly was the whole deal there anyhow? Didn't he call Zappa a "talentless bore" or something?

btw i wonder if Jim ended up finding some Zappa he liked.He's been awful quiet...

Neville Chamberlain

Quote from: "Dirty Boy"He's been awful quiet...

...quiet as a mouse...

Yes, I've got hold of We're Only In It For The Money and I like it a lot, though I shall definitely have to listen to it again so's I can really get to grips with it.

My initial impression is, as I've said, very positive, though I could still well do without Zappa's irritating propensity towards a doo-wop kind of style such as that heard on What's the Ugliest Part of Your Body. My favourite song so far is Lonely Little Girl and a couple of other tracks with a nice psychedelic vibe to them.

Like I said, I need to listen to it again. As some round here may know, I've got no problem with "challenging" music but, as keen as I am to check out more Zappa, I've a strange feeling a lot of it ain't gonna click...

Maybe it's cos I'm on a massive Gentle Giant trip at the moment, I don't know.

Dirty Boy

It's probably the most song based record of his imo.I know there's some crazy production on it, but i was always under the impression they were recording what they thought was a satirical pop album at least in terms of streamlining the sound.I still think you'd do well to check out Uncle Meat which is less cohesive, but has a much wider range of styles and i think is a crystalisation of all the things he was attempting in the early years of the mothers.I know there's a boxset called Lather that's supposed to be amazing, but i've never got round to hearing it.Maybe Clinton Morgan could offer more insight on this considering he appears to own everything the guy ever released

Neville Chamberlain

Quote from: "Dirty Boy"I still think you'd do well to check out Uncle Meat which is less cohesive, but has a much wider range of styles and i think is a crystalisation of all the things he was attempting in the early years of the mothers.

Blimey! I've just gone and ordered myself a copy.

Dirty Boy

Only joshing, it's shite really...