The Real Frank Zappa Thread

[Little Tommy Titter]

I think "One Size Fits All" is the best album to play to Zappa virgins. It's got some great stuff on there "Sofa No. 2" in particular.
And "Peaches En Regalia" from "Hot Rats" is maybe one of my favourite pieces of music ever. That little drum fill at the beginning is soopoib.

[Little Tommy Titter]

Oh, and Uncle Meat is the most unlistenable piece of junk I've ever heard.

[Neville Chamberlain]

Oh, and Uncle Meat is the most unlistenable piece of junk I've ever heard.

I don't think there's a single album I own that couldn't be described by someone, somewhere as an "unlistenable piece of junk".

[Little Tommy Titter]

I don't think there's a single album I own that couldn't be described by someone, somewhere as an "unlistenable piece of junk".

And I'm sure there's loads in my collection that people would kill me for owning.

[Clinton Morgan]

Frank Zappa is probably the single most untalented person I've heard in my life. He's two-bit, pretentious, academic and he can't play his way out of anything. He can't play rock 'n' roll, because he's a loser. And that's why he dresses so funny. He's not happy with himself and I think he's right
Lou Reed

Frank Zappa couldn't write a decent song if you gave him a million and a year on an island in Greece.
Lou Reed

Miaow!
Ironically when Zappa was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame it was Lou Reed who gave the honour. You can read his speech here:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andymurkin/Resources/MusicRes/ZapRes/Fame.html

And in one of the last interviews he gave before his death:

Ben Watson: When I interviewed  Dweezil and Ahmet [now Mr Selma Blair] they did a big routine about Lou Reed, attacking him. It was really funny. I sensed the rivalry going way back to the time of Tom Wilson and Verve and all the rest of it.

Frank Zappa: There wasn't any rivalry. I only met him once or twice back then.

Ben Watson: When I talk to Velvet Underground fans I play them 'Venus In Furs' by Lou Reed followed by 'Penguin In Bondage' [Roxy & Elsewhere] and I say 'Venus In Furs' is just a list of sadomasochistic cliches everyone knows, while 'Penguin in Bondage' is something strange.

And here are the lyrics:
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/v/velvet-underground/143887.html
http://lyrics.rockmagic.net/lyrics/zappa_frank/roxy_elsewhere_1974.html

There is an alternative take of 'We're Only In It For The Money' which (apart from 'Shut your fucking mouth about the length of my hair' on 'Mother People') has engineer Gary Kellgren whispering "and the day after that I get to work with the Velvet Underground which is almost as shitty a group as Frank's group." Also, and I use the word apparently, Frank Zappa would say on stage "These guys [VU] really suck." Then again he did like a few Velvet Underground songs and played 'All Tomorrow's Parties' on his radio show.
Here is a transcription:
http://www.science.uva.nl/~robbert/zappa/interviews/BBCRadio1.html

I may have all of Zappa's records on CD but the REAL fanatics are those who have both the CDs and vinyl records. Zappa would fart about and tweeze with the recordings before re-releasing them on compact disc. For example the Hot Rats CD is both longer and shorter than the vinyl (which I have as well as 200 Motels and One Size Fits All) in that there is extra material on some of the tracks (the talking intro on 'The Gumbo Variations') but a phrase from the guitar solo to 'Willie The Pimp' has been removed as has a brief but lovely bass-riff on 'Little Umbrellas'. There is even a website dedicated to the differences between vinyl and CD. Here is the discussion on 'We're Only In It For The Money':
http://w1.858.telia.com/~u85821131/vinylvscds/money.html
Also it is worth getting 'One Size Fits All' on an old Discreet vinyl as it has a far more crunchy sound than the CD. Sadly mine is scratched through overuse.

'Lather' is the four LP masterpiece that didn't get released because Warner Brothers decided to slice it into four albums: 'Zappa In New York' , 'Sleep Dirt' (also known as Hot Rats III), 'Studio Tan' and 'Orchestral Favorites'. Some of the other songs on Lather would appear on 'Shut Up N Play Yer Guitar', 'Joe's Garage Acts I, II & III', 'Tinseltown Rebellion' (an album I am still iffy about it, I like most of the songs but I feel a bit [inset indescribable word here] after listening to it.) and 'Shiek Yerbouti'. It was Frank Zappa's equivalent of The Beach Boys 'Smile'. But it is worth getting 'Lather' (released on 3CD in 1996) because it has alternate takes, different band versions, different mixes, unreleased tracks but it also has linking avant garde material influenced by Elliot Carter. Also it is worth buying the other records listed as they feature material not on 'Lather'. The whole point of 'Lather' is that it shows that there is no difference between his dumb songs 'Broken Hearts Are For Assholes' and his experimental pieces 'Pedro's Dowry'. If you listen to Zappa's pop songs, the same amount of inventiveness and experimentation that are in the avant garde pieces (say 'Project X' from 'Uncle Meat') are also in the dumb stuff (the part that took Tina Turner three days to sing on 'Montana' from 'Overnite Sensation'). On Mixing It, Ben Watson was asked how did Zappa listen to the different types of music such as doo-wop and Edgard Varese. Watson said he listened to them in the same way, he would hear a falsetto on a doo wop song in the same way he would hear a flute passage on a Varese composition. Also 'Cruisin' With Ruben And The Jets' is an experimental album. Zappa called it his neoclassical album. If Igor Stavinsky can take the traditions of classical music and pervert them (serious music history is divided into renaissance, baroque, classical, romantic, twentieth century etc) then why not do the same with doo wop? Also there is a quote from Stravinsky's 'The Rite of Spring' at the end of 'Fountain of Love'. You can read more about 'Ruben and The Jets' in 'The Real Frank Zappa Book' which is worth buying. And read the chapter on 'Failure' in which one of his failed ideas sounds very similar to downloading albums off the internet.
When Zappa asked a music teacher why a certain R&B single was good the reply was 'parallel fourths' and then he introduced him to the music of  Anton Webern (one of the best users of Arnold Schoenberg's twelve-tone formula). And this knowledge led Zappa to realise that music is about form (rhythm, timbre, harmony etc) and not about style (doo wop, classical, jazz, disco etc). He even gave a lecture as a teenager to his class after playing a doo wop record and told them why they should like it and that some of the musical lines are similar to classical music. To me he was both cerebral and visceral and that's why the music (especially the live recordings) have a lot of life in them, even the computer-Synclavier  pieces.
If you can't stand the daft lyrics then listen to the songs as if you don't speak English. You will appreciate the compositional structure a bit more. Also some dumb (or otherwise) songs have instrumental equivalents and show off Zappa's talent for melody even more. For example:
Oh No (Instrumental on 'Lumpy Gravy', Vocal on 'Weasels Ripped My Flesh')
Holiday In Berlin (Instrumental on 'Burnt Weeny Sandwich', Vocal on 'Freaks and Motherfuckers'[Beat The Boots])
The Mammy Nuns (Instrumental on 'You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore Volume 1, Vocal on 'Thing Fish')
'Thing Fish' also features a lot of well-hidden and well-crafted synclavier compositions played behind the dialogue passages, one of which is called 'Amnerika' and is featured on 'Civilization Phaze III'. Some might call that Zappa's crowning achievement and one which Jim must one. 'Money' is Phase One, 'Lumpy Gravy' is Phase Two, 'Civilization' is Phase Three. I think you can now only get that album via mail order so try http://www.gandsmusic.com or http://www.zappa.com.
Note: Sometimes a dumb pop song is just a dumb pop song and there is no inventiveness.

I can see where you are coming from Jim. When I first got into Frank Zappa I wanted to look for the creative experimental stuff that I read about. I had just been listening to Pink Floyd for a few years and wanted to listen to more records that were not just toe-tappy stuff. I remembered being disappointed by 'Freak Out!' at first ("' Help I'm A Rock' and 'The Return of The Son of Monster Magic' are the only experimental tracks the rest are just average rock and roll songs!!!!!!!") but now I love it and the rock and roll songs are far from average. Nevertheless here are four single disc Frank Zappa CDs that might be up your street:
'Jazz From Hell'
'The Perfect Stranger'
'Burnt Weeny Sandwich'
'Sleep Dirt'

Oh and enjoy 'Uncle Meat' it is a great album. Nice use of percussion and harpsichord. Also 'Pound For A Brown (On The Bus)' was composed when Zappa was 17 but the title refers to The Mothers of Invention mooning on an English tour bus.

Here is a two hour documentary on Zappa. Slightly gushing but it does feature a young Czech explaining how the secret police said to him " We are now going to beat the Frank Zappa music out of your head." It is worth listening to:
http://www.zappa.com/MUSIC/fzac/welcome.htm

[Clinton Morgan]

Now go to http://www.idiotbastard.supanet.com the UK Zappa news site with great interviews by my friend Andy Greenaway.

[Clinton Morgan]

Interview with Barry Miles about his new biography on Frank Zappa here:
http://realserver.bu.edu:8080/ramgen/w/b/wbur/onpoint/2004/12/op_1210b.rm

Note: Bass player Arthur Barrow has disputed the telling of his involvement in the re-recording of the drums and bass on We're Only In It For The Money and Cruisin' With Ruben and The Jets:

I sent this note to Barry Miles. I have received no reply. If this is any indication, this book is a mess. It may sound like I'm a bit touchy, but, folks, it's hard enough to make a go of it as a musician without stuff like this. At least this will set the record straight for the affz readers.

Dear Mr. Miles,
It has been brought to my attention that you made reference in your book "Zappa" to my participation in the re-recording of the bass tracks for the album "We're only in it For the Money". On page 236 you said: "Even worse was the way barrow borrowed the Knack's 'My Sharona' riff for 'Flower Punk'. barrow was 20 years younger than Zappa and didn't realize that 'My Sharona' was not recorded until 12 years after "We're only in it For the Money". It was a punk song rather than from the hippie period, so the psychedelic pastiche was destroyed"
This small paragraph is full of inaccuracies. First, it is total fiction to say that I borrowed the Sharona riff. Every note that I played for Zappa in the studio was
approved by or dictated by him. It was his idea to insert the Sharona riff. It happened to be a little ongoing joke at the time because I was a friend of the Knack's drummer, Bruce Gary. Frank had fun inserting that riff in several of his arrangements. If you think that a bass player has free reign to play whatever he wants on a Zappa master recording, you don't know much about how he worked in the studio! He controlled every detail. I did come up with a lot of my own ideas and parts over
the years, but they always had to pass his scrutiny. This was not one of them.
Second, I am about 11 years younger than Frank, not 20. I was a teen in the 60's and "We're only in it For the Money" was my first favorite Mothers album, so I was well aware of when it was released.
Third, because I was acquainted with Bruce Gary of the Knack, I was also quite aware of when 'My Sharona' was released.
Fourth, I was therefore obviously quite aware that 'Sharona' came long after "We're only in it For the Money". How can you possibly imagine that I would not have had such a basic awareness of something like that? You have no idea what I did or did not "realize". How can you justify putting this in your book? On what evidence do you base this assertion?
Oh yes, and by the way, the Knack was a new wave band, not a punk band.
I do not appreciate the way you blamed me for something most Zappa fans (including me) didn't like, the re-recordings for "We're only in it For the Money". Now many people will probably believe that what you describe is true: it is not. Please correct these mistakes in any future printings of the book.

I look forward to your reply.

Arthur Barrow

Taken from http://www.killuglyradio.com/hot-poop/2004/11/13/paglia-on-zappa

Also in the book 'Cosmic Debris' it has been revealed that the Look! magazine article on Varese was quite favourable. Whereas myth has stated that the article described it as cacophonic rubbish.


Here is Camille Paglia's review:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9902EFD7173CF937A25752C1A9629C8B63

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Nice quote from Capt. Beefheart.

Zappa? You mean that guy that looks like a flies leg?

I have always thought Beefheart was the more talented of the two, and Zappa always resented that. Although Zappa saved Beefhearts carrer several times over.

Zappa will have his place in rock history, but I don't think he will be rememberd for his songwriting abilities.

[Clinton Morgan]

I have always thought Beefheart was the more talented of the two.

Mothers of Invention drummer Jimmy Carl Black would probably agree.
" Frank's good but Beefheart's the real thing."

[Lumiere]

I think I got sick of Frank Zappa because my stepdad is a Zappa obsessive. He owns every single CD ever released under the name of Zappa, tribute CDs, bootlegs, the lot. About 500 Zappa discs in total....*

And a lot of the bootlegs, and some of the more random solo/mothers stuff is truly terrible.

*And he called ME nerdy for wanting ONE Pink Floyd bootleg.

[Clinton Morgan]

You're Dad's fantastic.

[judas/prudence]

FZ has also been a constant in my life, and now that i'm a collector of his stuff, its become an obsession.
Theres so much goodness its hard to know where to begin

[Neville Chamberlain]

I still think you'd do well to check out Uncle Meat which is less cohesive, but has a much wider range of styles and i think is a crystalisation of all the things he was attempting in the early years of the mothers.

Blimey! I've just gone and ordered myself a copy.

Well, I got it, ages ago, and, um, yes, er, don't know really. I'll give it another spin at the weekend definitely, but I can't honestly say anything really grabbed my balls. I'm afraid I'm going to have to put Zappa to one side for the time being and continue exploring the wonderful world of Magma instead...

[The Region Legion]

I still think you'd do well to check out Uncle Meat which is less cohesive, but has a much wider range of styles and i think is a crystalisation of all the things he was attempting in the early years of the mothers.

Blimey! I've just gone and ordered myself a copy.

Well, I got it, ages ago, and, um, yes, er, don't know really. I'll give it another spin at the weekend definitely, but I can't honestly say anything really grabbed my balls. I'm afraid I'm going to have to put Zappa to one side for the time being and continue exploring the wonderful world of Magma instead...

Uncle Meat is not a good album, just put it away and don't think about it again. Just get The Grand Wazoo or Roxyandelsewhere or Sheik Yerbouti and you'll have an easier time getting into him before listening to his slightly less than brilliant recorded works (like the utterly pretentious Uncle Meat).

[alan strang]

(like the utterly pretentious Uncle Meat).

Pretentious? In what sense?

[DonkeyRhubarb]

(like the utterly pretentious Uncle Meat).

Pretentious? In what sense?

Don't worry, "pretentious" is just one of those words people drop when they are too lazy to criticize something in depth.

Has anyone thought about what it is that is exactly wrong with being pretentious?

I'm pretentious all the time, I enjoy it. I have a good job, a stable relationship, a loving family and lots of friends. So what if I sit in the pub disscusing the artistic merits of Don van Vliet every now and then.

EDIT:And I wear a beret, a full length brown leather jacket and smoke Giantes.

[Fuckwittio]

Uncle Meat is fantastic. The second disc on the CD version is a bit too much, what with the unneccessary 40 minute excerpt from the film (the film, trust me, is hard enough work to watch), but the contents of the original issue of the LP are hugely entertaining. It's challenging, granted, but it's a helluva lot of fun. I much prefer it to the oft-praised Weasels Ripped My Flesh, which is quite a similar sounding album. But I can see how it would be an acquired taste...

My own Top 5 favourite Zappa LPs would be (not in order):

-Absolutely Free
- We're Only In It For The Money
-Burnt Weeny Sandwich
-Apostrophe
-Lather

But anything up to around Tinseltown Rebellion is fine by me. His later Lps are patchier, but there isn't a single Zappa LP that hasn't got at least a couple of tracks I like.

Any of you heard his last LP, Civilisation: Phase III? Those who are into the conceptual continuity game who haven't heard it may be interested to know that the final sound on the final song on the final Zappa LP is a dog (a poodle???) barking.

[Clinton Morgan]

He would have been 64 today.



Vera, Chuck and Dave.

[The Region Legion]

(like the utterly pretentious Uncle Meat).

Pretentious? In what sense?

Don't worry, "pretentious" is just one of those words people drop when they are too lazy to criticize something in depth.

No actually, pretentious is exactly the right word. The whole spoken word element smacks of "look how CRAZY we are" whilst just being incredibly boring and completely unnecessary. I don't even remember the music being anywhere close to how brilliant Zappa was before and after. I do fish it out every few months in an attempt to get to like it (like I did with Ruben & The Jets after I didn't really get it the first time, which succeeded the third or fourth time) but to no avail. It's just got nothing of interest to say to me.

[Clinton Morgan]

"Proceed to give everyone crabs, except Elmer who was too sick to ball."

[alan strang]

Nice Zappa piece by Germaine Greer in today's Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/features/story/0,11710,1458994,00.html

[alan strang]

Oh, and speaking of nice Zappa things to read:

http://s115622334.onlinehome.us/cd/bl/zappabook/trfzb30.htm#6

'The Real Frank Zappa Book' in its entirety - as one massive html file, pictures and all.

[splattermac]

thanks

Gail Zappa is now in control of the treasure house that I glimpsed all those years ago. She is anxious that Frank's legacy not be adulterated or exploited in the wrong way, and so far access to his compositions has been strictly limited. She hopes to bring out as many as a hundred albums on a new record label, Vaulternative Records, produced by Dweezil Zappa. Master tapes finished by Frank already exist for many of them.

Incredible thought, even if a small percentage of the booty are real gems then that's still a brand new album from a dead man.

[Clinton Morgan]

How about this motherfucker?
http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2005/April/index3.html

Have you read the Idiot Bastard's website where not only he encourages you to vote 200 Motels as best music film in a Mojo poll but refers to an Observer article in which Tom Waits chooses his 20 favourite records? Number 13 was The Yellow Shark. A fine, fine album and one can really appreciate it when one listens to it after playing the rehearsal album Everything Is Healing Nicely. The Yellow Shark is the best 'last' album a musician could ever have just as 'Limelight' is the best 'last' movie a filmmaker could ever have.

Funny you should bring this thread up again alan, I was thinking of doing the same thing again.

[Pepotamo1985]

Zappa is a genius. I've recently been immersing myself in his work, and I love everything I've heard (about 30 albums' worth).

Anyway, as far as top fives go:

Burnt Weeny Sandwich
We're Only In It For The Money
Freak Out!
Absolutely Free
Overnite Sensation

And there's plenty more where that came from.

Also, I urge VWs to read the scans of 'The Real Frank Zappa Book', because it's a great read.

[splattermac]

I'd love to have a read but it would have to be a purchase or on loan from the library, in other words a real book.

I can't read ebooks, unless there is a tool that allows you to beige-a-rize the page colours and adds ambient shadows such as 'hand with coffee cup passing' or 'propping glasses up on face' then it's just BLACK on WHITE, lots of WHITE, aaaiiieee!!

[Bigflood]

If you go over to www.ifilm.com there are two videos of Zappa on Crossfire on CNN in the mid eighties arguing against censorship in America:

http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2658805

http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2664570

I think he comes across well but I'm probably biased anyway.

[Clinton Morgan]

Don't forget on http://www.killuglyradio.com every friday a different boot of a different concert. I'm listening to a 22 minute version of Dupree's Paradise from 1973. Jean Luc Ponty's squirting at the moment.

http://www.killuglyradio.com/features/miscellaneous/gilles_friday_boot.php

[Pepotamo1985]

That really is a nice link. Thankyll.

[alan strang]

Rzzzzzz...



(Cleans and thrills you...)