Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 29, 2024, 04:01:39 PM

Login with username, password and session length

The Motorsport Thread (Part 2)

Started by Ambient Sheep, November 12, 2014, 03:44:05 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Ambient Sheep

Some interesting stats courtesy of F1 journalist Philip Horton, via Twitter:

https://twitter.com/PHortonF1/status/1279416753974542337
QuoteGains/losses for Austria qualifying vs 2019 times:

Racing Point -0.921
Williams -0.737
Renault -0.493
McLaren -0.473
AlphaTauri -0.360
Mercedes -0.323s
Red Bull +0.038
Haas +0.619
Ferrari +0.920
Alfa Romeo +1.119 #F1

and

https://twitter.com/PHortonF1/status/1279417303172513796
QuotePosition Austria 2020 vs 2019

1. Mercedes (2)
2. Red Bull (3)
3. McLaren (5)
4. Racing Point (9)
5. Ferrari (1)
6. Renault (7)
7. AlphaTauri (8)
8. Haas (4)
9. Williams (10)
10. Alfa Romeo (6)

All Ferrari-powered cars four teams lower...

Alberon

Ever since Ferrari's engine shenanigans they've been in the toilet. It's hard to see them playing much part in the championship.

Ambient Sheep

Yeah, it makes you wonder just how long they'd been doing it, given how many years of pace they seem to have gone back.

Ambient Sheep

Quote from: Huxleys Babkins on July 03, 2020, 12:08:46 PMApparently, Alonso is set to return with Renault next year...

Looks like this is gaining traction after all... well according to the latest clickbait, anyway  :)

https://www.grandprix.com/news/abiteboul-admits-2021-talks-with-alonso.html

Wonderful Butternut

Is it just me or is there a fair bit of nepotism going on in the lower series at the moment?

In F2, we have:

Nelson Piquet's other son, who hasn't deliberately crashed into any walls.
Michael Schumacher's son.
Jean Alesi's son.
Legendarily bad pay driver, Jean-Denis Deletraz's son.
Even worse one time Minardi tester, Chanoch Nissany's son.

Then in F3, we have:

Ralf Schumacher's son.
One of Emerson Fittipaldi's grandsons. And the other one was in F3 Asia last year and is now testing for Haas.
Alessandro Nannini's son.
Mick Doohan's son. (Moto GP rather than F1, but still.)

I was actually surprised when I checked Marino Sato and discovered he isn't Takuma Sato's son.

Seems a lot considering I can only think of 5 sons of F1 drivers who actually made it to F1 (Hill, Villeneuve, Rosberg, Magnussen & Verstappen).

Beagle 2


Wonderful Butternut

That ended up a lot better than it was shaping up to be around lap 30.


Bently Sheds

Quote from: Wonderful Butternut on July 05, 2020, 01:59:52 PM
Seems a lot considering I can only think of 5 sons of F1 drivers who actually made it to F1 (Hill, Villeneuve, Rosberg, Magnussen & Verstappen).
David Brabham - son of Jack - did a couple of seasons in the early 90s.

Also I think Alain Prost's son Nicolas drives in Formula E.

Wonderful Butternut

Quote from: Bently Sheds on July 05, 2020, 06:11:29 PM
David Brabham - son of Jack - did a couple of seasons in the early 90s.

I forgot him.

And now that I think of it, Jack's other, child molesting son, Gary Brabham, twice tried unsuccessfully to qualify for Life Racing Engines in 1990, possibly the worst F1 team ever, too.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

The nepotism simply shows you how fucked motorsport is when it comes to money. Sons of famous stars attract media attention and sponsorship (they are usually well-backed financially and have significant connections). It's incredible a driver like Davidson got on the fringes of F1 with so little money back in the mid-00s, but again he had the privilege of knowing and having the support of British motorsport, itself a dominant and over-bearing presence. Someone like Kamui Kobayashi is another example of a guy who wasn't bringing in much money and sponsorship but had a right-place-right-time record and was picked up by a team with a track record of hiring risk-taking drivers not Play it Safe Pauls (di Resta). He was also Japanese so a huge market for television audiences and probably a reason he was shunted forward.


We also had Christian Fittipaldi (everyone forgets Wilson drove in F1!), Michael Andretti, Kazuki Nakajima, Markus Winkelhock and Jolyon Palmer. Ascari and Stuck too, if we're counting their dads' pre-war racing days.

The problem we have now is that the racing ladder now only has one path and that path is really expensive. The regional Formula Ford/Renault/BMW, etc. series have gone, regional and Euro F3 are gone, Formula Renault 3.5 is gone. All the "cheaper" options are gone. Even the continental Formula Renault series uses the FIA F3 chassis now, albeit paired with the engine out of a Renaultsport Megane.

Martin Brundle said that to successfully get from karts into F1, to get into the winning teams, it costs about half a billion now. He didn't have anything close to that, thus Alex Brundle is a sports car driver. Even Red Bull are choosing to put their juniors into Superformula in Japan rather than GP2. If they can't stomach the cost, it's little wonder that the only kids making it through are the sons of billionaires and well-connected ex-drivers who invested their money well.

Ambient Sheep

https://twitter.com/ZamunerB/status/1280046756550586368

QuoteRumours from Spain and France are intensifying. Apparently Abiteboul informed his most experienced and long-running mechanics that the soon-to-be-announced Renault driver already worked with them. An announcement is expected to be issued on Wednesday

Although as many of the replies point out, that could also mean Hülkenberg, Magnussen or even Grosjean.  (Complete(?) list here.)

Wonderful Butternut

My money's on Rene Arnoux, personally.

Jokes aside, Magnussen actually looked decent in 2018 when the Haas wasn't a complete dog. He is however, a monumental twat.

Presumably it is Alonso though.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: Wonderful Butternut on July 06, 2020, 10:24:47 PM
My money's on Rene Arnoux, personally.

Jokes aside, Magnussen actually looked decent in 2018 when the Haas wasn't a complete dog. He is however, a monumental twat.

Presumably it is Alonso though.

Renault could pull a Newcastle United and it ends up being Joe Kinnear.

Wonderful Butternut


Ambient Sheep

An interesting hypothesis on just WHY Ferrari's engine impact has been as bad as it has:

QuoteIt was clear from all three Ferrari-engined teams that the changes made with the engine as a result of the end-of-season kerfuffles in 2019 and the subsequent secret deal with the FIA, that the Ferrari motors have lost some horsepower.

But the difference is more dramatic than one would expect and it is hard to understand why that would be.

For me the answer probably lies in heat transfer. Fuel is used as a coolant as it flows through parts of the engine, absorbing waste heat, which helps to pre-heat it before combustion. If there is less fuel flow there can be more heat build-up and engines can overheat. This means that to avoid problems the engines must be turned down, or kept low.

If one looks at the Q sessions from last weekend in Austria the changes between Q1 and Q3 suggested that overheating might be the problem for Ferrari. Charles Leclerc was the only Ferrari-engined driver with whom one can make a comparison with the Mercedes as Vettel didn't make it to Q3. In Q1 Hamilton and Leclerc were less than four-tenths apart. In Q2 that gap went out to a second, which was repeated in Q3. In other words, Ferrari cannot turn up its engines and may even have to turn them down more often in a race if heat build-up becomes critical.

And here is the problem. The engines are frozen for this year and next. One cannot change the architecture. So it is probably not a problem that can be fixed. Taking off aerodynamic downforce may help but it will make the cars more difficult to drive. Just a theory but it kind of makes sense...

(From https://www.joeblogsf1.com/joesaward/id/00772.  Given that techy stuff isn't Joe's strong point, one suspects, reading between the lines of the wider article, that this information may have been slipped to him by someone.)


Also thought this was of interest, regarding the spare Renault seat:

Quote...for me there was a significant moment in [Formula 2] qualifying when Guanyu Zhou put his UNI-Virtuosi car on pole by nearly half a second. There were then seven drivers within two-tenths of the second man. That was the kind of performance that turns heads and with Renault looking for a driver now that Daniel Ricciardo is off to McLaren, and Zhou being the most senior of Renault's young drivers, such a performance will be noted.

In the race Zhou lost the lead briefly at the start but got back ahead. He then lost some time in the pit stops and got back ahead again and he seemed to be on his way to a dominant victory when he had some mechanical trouble. In the second race he was trying to pick up places when he was taken out avoiding someone else's accident. He didn't figure in the results at all, but a lot of folk noticed the performance.

Getting a competitive F1 driver from China is something of a Holy Grail for F1 marketers and could help the sport massively in the years ahead.

And of course, Guanyu Zhou would fit the bill as someone who has "already worked with them"...

Blumf

Surely they can cool the engine down enough between quali sessions for that not to be an issue.

Still, wouldn't help during the race.

Ambient Sheep

Quote from: Blumf on July 07, 2020, 02:17:05 PMSurely they can cool the engine down enough between quali sessions for that not to be an issue.

You'd think, but apparently not.

I also don't share his pessimism over their ability to sort it for the next couple of seasons.  After all, presumably putting bigger radiators on would help (although harming aerodynamics), unless the whole point is that the fuel was being used to transfer heat from deep inside the engine to where the cooling water could get to it.  In which case, yes, they are fucked.


Quote from: Blumf on July 07, 2020, 02:17:05 PMStill, wouldn't help during the race.

No, but then Mercedes only tend to turn their engines up for Qually, so no huge difference there.

Ambient Sheep

Looks like it's veering back to Alonso, if you believe the more detailed version of the quote mentioned here:

https://www.grandprix.com/news/renault-may-announce-alonso-news-on-wednesday.html

QuoteNoemi de Miguel, a reporter for Spanish television Movistar, says she has learned that "Renault plans to make an official announcement on Wednesday".

She did not specifically mention Alonso, but revealed: "After the race (in Austria), Cyril Abiteboul told mechanics who have been around for more than 15 years that they have already worked" with Renault's next driver.
(emphasis mine)

God knows how trustworthy that isn't, though.  Could well be Chinese whispers.

Oh well, we'll find out tomorrow.


Finally, for the record, there were some words by touchingcloth and others in a General Bullshit thread about BBC Newsbeat's appalling reporting on Lando Norris' record-breaking achievement.  I agreed, over the page.

Bently Sheds

The BBC website's reporting that Alonso to Renault for 2021 is a done deal.

I can't see the point, myself. Another couple of years of tooling around in the midfield, him getting more and more frustrated, Ocon nipping at his heels and crashing into him every other weekend. As mentioned upthread, Joe Saward's view that Guanyu Zhou should get the seat would make more financial sense for Renault.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

F1s owners, not to mention several major stakeholders would be keen to have a former champion back on the grid for a host of reasons, commercial ones leading the way by a distance. Surely it isn't too cynical to suggest Renault don't operate in a vacuum but are having their arm twisted to rehire Alonso for a third stint.

On a personal level for Alonso he will have to admit he isn't bothered about winning and just wants to race for the same reason as Raikkonen wants to race, because he enjoys the fight.

For what it's worth I think Alonso could still do a reasonable job for the team.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Also, I was thinking this could potentially be Bottas' year to win the title. Hamilton gets off to a slower start traditionally and there are fewer races this year, and later ones may be cancelled depending on Covid situation.

I don't think Bottas is in Rosberg's class but he's definitely capable of beating Hamilton on the odd weekend here and there. If he gets a few joined up and Hamilton has some bad luck somewhere he can find himself with a gap he can drive defensively to maintain, just like the year Rosberg won. There's usually a race where Verstappen will throw a wrecking ball through everyone's plans.

If Ocon carries on the way he did in Austria, I can see Renault with two new drivers next year.

Ambient Sheep

Quote from: Bently Sheds on July 07, 2020, 04:56:36 PM
The BBC website's reporting that Alonso to Renault for 2021 is a done deal.

Hah, well if Andrew Benson's saying it, I believe it.  The Beeb don't go in for speculation.  Tomorrow came quickly!


Quote from: Bently Sheds on July 07, 2020, 04:56:36 PMI can't see the point, myself. Another couple of years of tooling around in the midfield, him getting more and more frustrated, Ocon nipping at his heels and crashing into him every other weekend. As mentioned upthread, Joe Saward's view that Guanyu Zhou should get the seat would make more financial sense for Renault.

Quite.  I guess that, as Shoulders says, if nothing else he just wants to have a nice drive round, like Räikkönen.


Quote from: Huxleys Babkins on July 07, 2020, 05:47:45 PMIf Ocon carries on the way he did in Austria, I can see Renault with two new drivers next year.

Until last weekend, I would have assumed that Ocon would have given him serious trouble, and would be a good reason for Alonso not to go there.  Now, I'm not so sure, although to be fair it was Ocon's first trip out in an F1 car for over 18 months.  Too early to call, I reckon.

Having said that, Ocon being 0.377s behind Ricciardo in Q1, and 0.620s in Q2 must have come as quite a shock to him, as well as us.


Finally, I meant to share this bit of humour earlier:
https://twitter.com/SpannersReady/status/1279411935289712640

Ambient Sheep

Sudden thought: of course this means that Vettel almost certainly has nowhere to go.

Ambient Sheep

Another thought: am rather surprised that Renault are willing to have him back after Singapore '07.  Am even more surprised that I've not seen anybody else mention it either.  Maybe it's just me?

As for Renault themselves, I guess the corporation has swallowed the line that it was all down to Flavio Briatore and Pat Symonds and that nobody else knew about it or went along with it.  At all.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Isn't Flavio still Alonso's associate as well?

They presumably just think it couldn't happen again.

Brundle once called him Teflonso because "nothing ever sticks to him".

Based on the strategy they were running, I'd be amazed if he wasn't at least aware that something was afoot. He was fuelled to pit so far out of sequence that he must have been asking questions.

But, yeah, the prevailing wisdom is that Briatore and Symonds acted alone and that an anonymous "witness X" was aware of the plan but refused to go along with it.

Ambient Sheep

For some odd reason the name Alan Permane, Chief Race Engineer 2007-2011, now their Sporting Director, springs to mind.  Plenty of suggestions at the time that he was the hero, and it would make sense.  I think they made him the Acting Team Principal (or maybe just Acting Technical Director, I forget) after Briatore & Symonds got the boot.

Actually, his name didn't spring to mind.  His face did instantly but I couldn't remember his name.  While searching for it, I found this interesting interview with Pat Symonds, in which he claims that the original idea was actually Piquet's!!

And by the way, it was 2008, not 2007.  My mistake.