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Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy & Smiley's People

Started by monkfromhavana, November 24, 2014, 12:03:21 PM

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monkfromhavana

Has their ever been 2 better TV series? I'm re-watching them now for the first time in over a year and they're almost still as gripping as the first time. Fantastic acting, great plots and a nice pace to them.

To think, none of my friends will watch it as it's "old" is "too slow" and is "about spies".

Anyone else a fan? I tried to watch the film but couldn't get into it, mainly due to the logistics of trying to get it down to 2 hours and make it up-to-date.

Blumf

Quote from: monkfromhavana on November 24, 2014, 12:03:21 PM
I tried to watch the film but couldn't get into it, mainly due to the logistics of trying to get it down to 2 hours and make it up-to-date.

"Up-to-date"? It was a period piece. The film was a good effort, can't really knock it, but it doesn't hold a candle to the series. You needed the slow pace allowed by the TV show to properly engage with the story. The drawn out dullness hiding the horrific acts and possibilities behind the actions, the necessary coldness required by everyone. Gripping stuff.

It's a real shame, I don't think the BBC is capable of doing something like that now.

touchingcloth

The look and atmosphere of the film were fantastic, absolutely faithful to the tone and setting of the book. I saw the film before reading the book, though[nb]And had had the mole's identity ruined by stupidly, inexplicably reading Smiley's People first.[/nb], and I found the experience bewildering in a lot of places. There are too many convoluted aspects to the novel that run in parallel and all culminate in the reveal of the mole, that if you gloss over some of those aspects — which, out of necessity in a two hour film, you do — then you lose the slow, satisfying unfurling of the tradecraft that makes the book and the TV series so compelling.

I don't think it's possible to transport that novel to the big screen without either making a hash of it, or producing a quite different story.

I've not seen the series. I really loved the book and think the film is spectacular in terms of the craft of it, but I think it'd be utterly bewildering to anyone who hadn't read the book before hand. As a mood piece, it is stellar. And I loved it most for allowing the final piece of the puzzle to slot into place. With the
Spoiler alert
relationship between Prideaux and Hayden, and the fact that it was likely Prideaux who shot him. When I read the book, young Bill Roach discovering Prideaux in his caravan preparing his rifle drinking. I thought it was implying he was about to kill himself. Which to be fair, could still be true but it makes much more sense that he kills Bill Haydon. And they were lovers and everything with Bill Roach makes sense. Taking a shine to this young boy, mentoring him and such because he reminds him of the Bill he loved. It's perfect.
[close]

I need to read the book again. I read A Call From The Dead not too long ago. Good fun book and has that same understated melancholy feel that I adore. The character of George Smiley is so fascinating. A tedious man. A short chubby unattractive man who doesn't really catch your eye and doesn't have the charm of a Bill Haydon. He's just kind of unassuming and there. But underneath that, he is a natural observer. Watching everything. He's not the kind of guy who gets into gun fights and car chases. He just watches and thinks, and is still a human being who wants to be loved and know that he exists, and is constantly reminded of his loneliness by his perpetually estranged partner.

I've always been desperate to emulate that style. My next project I'd like to be an espionage thing, and just look at Le Carre novels and the Edge of Darkness TV series. Two utterly brilliant moody, tragic and quietly horrifying and troubling pieces of British art you can find.

I might watch the series of this actually.

The Duck Man

I'm yet to read the book or watch the series. I liked the film a lot - always a sucker for a great cast list and the atmosphere/look of it was great. Can't say I had any trouble understanding it either.

I was quite hopeful they'd do the Smiley's People adaptation that was mooted upon the first film's release. You'd have thought a decent box office showing, a smattering of awards and the return of Oldman/Cumberbatch (and a few lesser characters) might be enough. But then the counter is: cast availability (Cumberbatch particularly, who would be a supporting role still), less room for the casting of notable actors, older target demographic - thought to be less profitable, plus less likely to attach to a franchise, source material for sequel isn't as renowned...

The Master and Commander sequel - long-suggested - is another one that ticks a few of those boxes.

dr_christian_troy

Quote from: The Duck Man on November 24, 2014, 01:23:03 PM
I'm yet to read the book or watch the series. I liked the film a lot - always a sucker for a great cast list and the atmosphere/look of it was great. Can't say I had any trouble understanding it either.

I was quite hopeful they'd do the Smiley's People adaptation that was mooted upon the first film's release. You'd have thought a decent box office showing, a smattering of awards and the return of Oldman/Cumberbatch (and a few lesser characters) might be enough. But then the counter is: cast availability (Cumberbatch particularly, who would be a supporting role still), less room for the casting of notable actors, older target demographic - thought to be less profitable, plus less likely to attach to a franchise, source material for sequel isn't as renowned...

Not forgetting The Honourable Schoolboy in between, with Stephen Graham potentially reprising his role as Jerry Westerby.

Norton Canes

I've watched the BBC adaptation of Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy, and I loved practically every minute of it. It helped that the first scene is so spellbinding – each of the Circus protagonists entering a room in their own slow, inimitable fashion; wordlessly revealing their character traits, by use of subtle body language. Sublime stuff. Smiley's People, by contrast, starts with some very clumsy, protracted exposition featuring Dudley 'Lovejoy' Sutton as a terribly unconvincing Soviet agent. It put me off watching the rest, although I'll probably come back to it sooner or later.

The recent film simply tried too hard to be cool and understated, and turned out to be quite dreary.   

pillockandtwat

Quote from: monkfromhavana on November 24, 2014, 12:03:21 PM
Has their ever been 2 better TV series?

No. [nb]Documentaries are a different category though.[/nb]


Ignatius_S

Quote from: Norton Canes on November 24, 2014, 02:23:25 PM.... featuring Dudley 'Lovejoy' Sutton as a terribly unconvincing Soviet agent.

Nah, Sutton could be excellent playing very unpleasant characters and his portrayal here was very much in line what's in the book. Arguably the character shouldn't be convincing as an agent – he's crude and something of a liability,
Spoiler alert
which helps Smiley get on the scent of Karla, because if Karla is using someone so ill-suited to for this kind of intelligence work, it indicates that he's desperate and that his orders are going to relate to something not on the books. If this related to official work, Karla wouldn't be choosing his tools so desperately.
[close]

Bit of related Orton trivia.. Sutton was the first actor to play Sloane in Joe Orton's Entertaining Mr Sloane, whilst Ian McShane played in two other original Orton productions (Loot and Funeral Games).

Sal Vicuso

I love the books, and the series. The film of TTSS I admired, but I was and remain dubious of some of the casting decisions. In my minds eye Peter Guillam doesn't resemble Cumberwumba at all, and watching him intimidate, then physically get the better of Hardy's Ricky Tarr stretched my credulity pretty thin. Also couldn't really see the point of making Guillam gay in the film, just the one brief scene, seemed to hold on significance than to give him another side.

And I also would LOVE to see an adaptation of Schoolboy, either film or preferably a series, to give the story room to breathe, but although I like Graham in some roles, I also think he was miscast as Westerby who I always thought of as a great shaggy-haired ox of a man, almost Boris Johnson-like in physicality and the way he spoke. I don't think it was ever put to film previously, was it down to budget maybe? I know it shifts locations frequently and the whole SE Asia section would obviously require some medium-scale-ish action sequences.


touchingcloth

I think the main stumbling block to producing a feature film was always the process of adapting it. There is no obvious way to cut that story down to a two hour runtime and retain its essence.

The Roofdog

If you mean Schoolboy, there's also the fact that you'd have to shoot most of it in South East Asia, whilst with the others you can get away with pretending Birmingham is Hamburg or whatever they did.

EDIT: Oh, Sal Vicuso already said that, ignore me


Sal Vicuso

I remember reading another of Le Carre's books, I think it was about an old spy recounting his experiences, and there's a story of Smiley sending a medal to the mother of a criminal who had been hanged - the man had told his mother he was working undercover in service of his country, when he was actually in prison, and Smiley didn't want to crush her belief so told her that her son died doing his duty instead of at the hangman's rope. Perfectly encapsulates the warmth and humanity of the character. Someone up-thread referred to him as tedious, which is not something I'd use to describe him at all. Reserved, ponderous yes, but never less than fascinating.

Ignatius_S

Quote from: Delete Delete Delete on November 24, 2014, 03:52:47 PM
If your into audio plays, try out the BBC complete Smiley collection. I enjoy those very much. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-George-Smiley-Dramas-Dramatisations/dp/1408427745/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1416844336&sr=8-1&keywords=complete+smiley

I was going to menttion the audiobooks narrated Michael Jayston (Guillam in the TV version of TTSP) as they really are extraordinarily good.

Milverton

I bought the DVD sets of both TTSS and Smiley's People in an HMV sale a decade ago and revisit them often. I know every time I go back to them it'll end up with me thinking "I'll just watch the next episode then go to bed" then suddenly its 4am.

its just the almost imperceptible unwinding of it that really captures my attention. How Guinness just sits impassive yet manages to upstage everyone with a rub of his specs on his cardigan sleeve is so oddly compelling. It reminds me of a line in a Sherlock Holmes story (Sign of the Four?) where Watson observes Holmes sitting silently in thought and fears for the health of those he has set his mind upon.

I loved the movie too, despite its necessary abridgement. I thought it captured the era beautifully, plus it had such a marvellous ending. The choice of the Julio Iglesias tune was so odd, yet it was perfect. 

In answer to the OPs question, I'm an I, Claudius fan, but TTSS particularly comes within an ace.

Milverton

Quote from: Delete Delete Delete on November 24, 2014, 03:52:47 PM
If your into audio plays, try out the BBC complete Smiley collection. I enjoy those very much. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-George-Smiley-Dramas-Dramatisations/dp/1408427745/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1416844336&sr=8-1&keywords=complete+smiley

Yep, these are fantastic, and I always have them on me. While we're talking about spies the BBCs readings of the Bond novels are fucking brilliant too.

marquis_de_sad

Quote from: Sal Vicuso on November 24, 2014, 03:57:31 PMSomeone up-thread referred to him as tedious, which is not something I'd use to describe him at all. Reserved, ponderous yes, but never less than fascinating.

He is tedious, in the sense that that a spy has to be. The genius of the book and the series is that it puts you in the mindset of spy craft, where ordinary things might not be ordinary, where the boring details might be the most crucial. Smiley is fascinating because he's a master at hiding behind his boringness. He's both a keen spy and a quiet old bloke who'd much rather be reading his dry old German books, which is why he's such a great character.

Serge

Quote from: The Roofdog on November 24, 2014, 03:30:09 PM
If you mean Schoolboy, there's also the fact that you'd have to shoot most of it in South East Asia, whilst with the others you can get away with pretending Birmingham is Hamburg or whatever they did.

EDIT: Oh, Sal Vicuso already said that, ignore me

Some bits were filmed in Hamburg, though, notably the scene on the ferry. Also, I was very excited to see Lubeck station playing itself, having been there many years ago.

I love the TV versions, they are almost completely perfect. As adaptations of the source materials go, they couldn't be bettered, certainly not by the shoddy attempt of a film, which managed to piss me off almost constantly (
Spoiler alert
Karla as a Keyser Soze-esque figure sitting watching the shooting of Prideaux which completely inexplicably is taking place in a busy square
[close]
for a start.)

I finally got around to reading the books earlier this year, including 'The Honourable Schoolboy', and they are bloody amazing. If they had done a TV version of 'H.S.', Westerby would have been played by Joss Ackland, and I believe that he was cast with the possibility of that in mind. (Also, just to mention another thing which pissed me off in the film - the Westerby figure in the film is actually another character altogether in the book and TV series  - Sam Collins, who also plays a role in 'H.S.')

Of the two TV series, I do just prefer 'Smiley's People' though, mainly because of the excellent Bernard Hepton as Toby Esterhase - playing him as a completely different character than he does in 'Tinker' (though in the books, he comes across as more the Smiley version even in Tinker, Tailor.) I also got around to reading 'A Perfect Spy' recently too, and re-watched the excellent TV version of that on the back of it - if you haven't seen that, it's worth checking out for the magnificent performances by Rudiger Weigang and Ray McAnally, amongst others (though to be fair, Peter Egan is slightly miscast as Pym.)

Bingo Fury

Yes, I love how Hepton plays Toby in Smiley's People, playing up the hitherto non-existent ethnic angle now that he has to make a living outside the Circus.

I adore both Tinker, Tailor and Smiley's People, and probably watch them every year or so. The pacing is so seductive - once you lock into its groove (I usually found a spliff helped beforehand), it unfolds at just the perfect speed, and as Milverton noted, before you know it it's 4am. Watching the movie I found to be a horrible experience. Once you've seen what you feel is the definitive version of something, you can't help yourself just pointing at the screen and going "wrong, wrong, wrong" every five minutes.

Quote from: Sal Vicuso on November 24, 2014, 03:57:31 PM
I remember reading another of Le Carre's books, I think it was about an old spy recounting his experiences, and there's a story of Smiley sending a medal to the mother of a criminal who had been hanged - the man had told his mother he was working undercover in service of his country, when he was actually in prison, and Smiley didn't want to crush her belief so told her that her son died doing his duty instead of at the hangman's rope. Perfectly encapsulates the warmth and humanity of the character. Someone up-thread referred to him as tedious, which is not something I'd use to describe him at all. Reserved, ponderous yes, but never less than fascinating.

Coincidentally, I watched The Spy Who Came In From The Cold for the first time last night, which pretty well trashed all my notions about George Smiley's "warmth and humanity". Depends how you view it, of course. The book may make it clearer what George did and didn't know, or intend.

I've started on this thanks to this thread and I'm already in love. I think within the first half hour, it outshines the film version. It's not as much down to craft, they're both incredibly well made, more just down to time that the first episode has to allow it all to sink in.

You're supposed to be a few steps behind at all times, but I think the film wouldn't give you too much emphasis to force yourself to keep up with it's rapid pace.
This one, very economically and without too much exposition and words, allows the audience to understand the basics of this in as simple terms as possible.

The way the characters all walk in with their own sense of purpose in that 2 minutes.
It forces you to quietly observe, like Smiley, and start making observations. The double speak of everything going on.

"Just because he was your protege, I suppose he's Bill Haydon's boy now. Bill was father to them all, wasn't he...or something like that."
and
"Love to Ann! Everybody's love to Ann!"

You're not supposed to have all the pieces watching it cold. But the way they say these things, and the way they react to hearing those things, they carry weight, and it's up to you to observe, and to start logging these threads away in your mind, and eventually start connecting them. It's a web of harsh truths hidden in a pile of lies.

It's really great. So far it's one of those older British series I've seen that stands out so much, in how confident it is, and the bold storytelling, and the great performances. Even to a 21 year old Australian boy. Again, Edge of Darkness is another one that is shockingly, melancholy loaded series that like this appears to be shaping up to be, stands up as excellent television regardless of time.

Rumpole of the Old Bailey was another discovery for me last year. It's not quite the same in terms of tone as these other two, but there's something too them.
Older protagonists with their own lives and passions, but always a hint of sadness and melancholy underneath.

Also, to clarify, when I said Smiley was tedious, I meant exactly what marquis_de_sad said. He hit the nail right on the head about what I meant with that specific word. I don't mean I find his character tedious in that I'm bored watching him.

Mobius

I'm going to check this out because I like spy stuff, and enjoyed the film version of TTSS. I hope I'm not being thick but could somebody please clarify the correct order to watch them in?

On a slightly unrelated note, has anyone been watching The Game? It's quite fun, and has a similar theme to Tinker Tailor, with a few familiar faces in. Written by the guy who did Being Human, and it's got Brian Cox and the nutty probation worker from Misfits in.

I'll take any recommendations on spy/espionage/conspiracy type stuff as well. Loved Edge of Darkness, State of Play, Rubicon and all that.

Sal Vicuso

Quote from: Mobius on November 25, 2014, 11:28:42 AM
I'm going to check this out because I like spy stuff, and enjoyed the film version of TTSS. I hope I'm not being thick but could somebody please clarify the correct order to watch them in?

TTSS,
The Honourable Schoolboy
Smiley's People

make up the Karla trilogy. The character of Smiley crops up fairly frequently through Le Carre's other Cold War era novels, but usually in a supporting role.

monkfromhavana

To be fair to the film, I think I only watched the Prideaux shooting part. Seeing how different that was from the film and book, and it being out in the open in the middle of the street put me off the film completely. I don't have any doubt that it's well made, with lots of good things in it, but I don't have any desire to watch it.

As for Dudley Sutton and his characterisation, well I suppose that he isn't supposed to be a top hood, he's just some no-mark Karla had to use which might explain some of his characters actions (if not how he is performed by Tinker). A pity Michael Jayston couldn't reprise his role as Guillam though.

I do like the way that Smiley takes control towards the end of SP, finally getting round to dumping his wife, even though after the matter with Karla is finished he will have nothing to do for the rest of his life but bury his head in manuscripts.

mothman

I really wanted to like the TTSS film. But some of the choices/changes made just annoyed me. What was the actual point of making Guillam gay, and having him break up with his partner for safety's sake? It didn't add anything to the plot. As others have pointed out, the scene where Prideaux is shot was awful. Why would Karla be there?

But stupidest of all was the scene where Prideaux then sees Tarr's Russian girlfriend killed. Sure, shocking. But it totally makes a mockery of the timeline of the original story! The whole point is, by the time Ricky goes to, um, wherever it was, the events that led to Prideaux's shooting and the deposing of Control are long in the past. Gerald is firmly established in de facto control of the Circus. He develops the relationship with her, it all goes pear-shaped and he has to run, but with the knowledge of Gerald's existence. He makes it back to the UK, contacs Guillam who goes to Lacon who then brings in Smiley. Having Ricky meet Irina almost certainly BEFORE Karla's (& Gerald's) ambush plan for Prideaux is absurd. She's then taken to Czechoslovakia and executed in  front of Prideaux? Why? If, on his return to the UK, despite whatever efforts Gerald made to block it, he was properly debriefed, he might be able to describe her, and if Tarr got to tell his story, then there'd be a connection for someone to make. It's stupid. And where was Tarr meant to be during all this time? WALKING back to the UK on foot? Is that why it took him so long? Nope. It's just daft, and unnecessary, all for a brief dramatic moment which they presumably thought worked better than the brief mention of a report of Irina's execution in the Lubyanka that's in the book.

monkfromhavana

This is what I don't get. I understand that they need to change the story to make it work in 2 hours as opposed to 6, but why add more shit into that? Why change it so it doesn't really make any sense?

monkfromhavana

I was just thinking about this in the shower.

If Control is so cautious and so resistant against "miracles", why, when he's investigating high level treachery in the service does he suddenly agree to send Prideaux when some Czech general suddenly tells him that he has information on who the spy in the circus is? Surely, being so cautious and suspicious of topical intelligence (as he and Smiley say when Alleline brings them the Witchcraft material) why does he fall for it? I know that he's dying and a little desperate, but still. Even when Prideaux asks him how sure he is, Control just gives a wan smile.

So why do it? Why not just plough on through the files?

Sal Vicuso

I think you answered your own question - he was running out of time and he didn't know who he could trust, even Smiley. That's why he chose Prideaux because he'd been out of the country so long he was unlikely to be tainted. The Czech mission was a last desperate roll of the die.

monkfromhavana

Quote from: Sal Vicuso on November 27, 2014, 11:52:27 AM
I think you answered your own question - he was running out of time and he didn't know who he could trust, even Smiley. That's why he chose Prideaux because he'd been out of the country so long he was unlikely to be tainted. The Czech mission was a last desperate roll of the die.

He chose Prideaux because he was almost forced to by Karla's plan. It had to be someone high ranking, outside of the Circus and could speak Czech. Haydon admits as much in the last episode. Also, Prideaux hadn't been out of the country, Sam Collins had (in Japan). Could he not have read in the files about the safe house where Gerald and the others meet the Russians? After all, a house was bought specifically or it.


Sal Vicuso

Did he have access to those files? I thought they were off-limits to all except Alleline's crew until the evidence of a mole couldn't be ignored any longer. Can't remember really, it's been too long since I've read or watched it