Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy & Smiley's People

[monkfromhavana]

Did he have access to those files? I thought they were off-limits to all except Alleline's crew until the evidence of a mole couldn't be ignored any longer. Can't remember really, it's been too long since I've read or watched it

I'd have though, as head of the security services, Control would have access to anything he wanted.

[Sal Vicuso]

I might be misremembering but wasn't a condition of Alleline(?) getting hold of Witchcraft information precisely that no-one outside he, Esterhase, Haydon and Bland were to be allowed to know any details about the source, presumably including meeting arrangements? Although Control should have been able to have one of them followed to establish that at least

[Sal Vicuso]

Because Karla would know Control would know Witchcraft was too good to be true, and needed to prevent him from proving it

[monkfromhavana]

Because Karla would know Control would know Witchcraft was too good to be true, and needed to prevent him from proving it

I suppose Karla had to do it, as if Control keeled over and died there would be no guarantee that Smiley wouldn't become the next head of the service. But then again, why do it? He'd still have had Haydon there derailing operations and providing intelligence...unless it was to get at what the Americans had.

[Mark Steels Stockbroker]

I've never read the books, but I love the TV series. Couldn't get on with the film as I judged it against the TV version. I had a strong suspicion that Guinness' portrayal of Smiley fed back in to the literary version, and if you see the Le Carre interview in the extras on the SP DVD he pretty much confirms.

I wasn't so impressed with Perfect Spy when I finally saw it, remembering what praise was heaped on it when it was broadcast. I know it's silly, but it irks me that it doesn't exist in the Smileyverse.

Mrs Stockbroker loves the books, and she also insists we have a rewatching session of the DVDs once a year.

If you love the ethical dilemma/mystery puzzle aspect of it all then you will also like the Graham Greene novel The Human Factor, which covers similar ground. There's a film version but I don't think it has a great reputation.

Incidentally...

the actress Lucy Fleming appears as Molly Meakin in Smiley's People. She also appeared in the 1984 series Cold Warrior, which is part of the Arden Winch/John Brason/Gerald Glaister thrillerverse. I'd love to pretend she's the same character in the 2 series, as that would mean that Smiley exists in the same fictiverse as Secret Army. Thus:

Smiley's People <= Molly Meakin => Cold Warrior     [let's pretend]

Cold Warrior <= Capt. Aubrey Percival => Skorpion [actual connection]

Skorpion  <= ... => Kessler [supposition, same creative team]

Kessler <=> Secret Army [direct continuity]


Therefore, Smiley exists in the same fictiverse as Secret Army.

[Ant Farm Keyboard]

I've read the Karla trilogy (in the French translation), seen the film (one of my favorites of that year) but not the two BBC adaptations.

Concerning the change that made Guillam gay, Le Carré was fine with it. It made it easier for the audience to understand that Prideaux is also gay, but the main reason was to show how much the characters in the story have to walk on eggshells even in their private life, with the slightest deviation that can be used as a leverage on them. The outdated views on homosexuality at the Circus and the espionage world show how out of touch these people are.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-2012212/Tinker-Tailor-Soldier-Spy-Benedict-Cumberbatch-fulfilling-acting-dream.html

Le Carré has never been very consistent with some details. Guillam, in his original appearances prior to TTSS, was supposed to be almost as old as Smiley. As I read the books after watching the film, I wasn't shocked by the fact that they had turned a womanizer into a homosexual for the adaptation. Apart from that, his personality was the same, and they did an outstanding job adapting the entire book into a two hour film, even if they shuffled the structure a lot.

[Endicott]

It's a real shame, I don't think the BBC is capable of doing something like that now.

I've thought this for a few years now, but suddenly find I'm really enjoying The Fall. It's not finished yet, mind.

[Endicott]

I might watch the series of this actually.

Yeah, I'm an Edge Of Darkness fan too. You really should watch the series, Guinness gets those character traits you listed very well.

edit: ha you are! Glad you're enjoying it. I should have read the whole thread.

[Endicott]

I've watched the BBC adaptation of Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy, and I loved practically every minute of it. It helped that the first scene is so spellbinding – each of the Circus protagonists entering a room in their own slow, inimitable fashion; wordlessly revealing their character traits, by use of subtle body language. Sublime stuff. Smiley's People, by contrast, starts with some very clumsy, protracted exposition featuring Dudley 'Lovejoy' Sutton as a terribly unconvincing Soviet agent. It put me off watching the rest, although I'll probably come back to it sooner or later.

The most annoying thing for me about Smiley's People was the recasting of Peter Guillam. I really liked Michael Jayston in the role.[nb]yep. should of read the thread[/nb]

You should go back to it. It comes together very well.

[monkfromhavana]

The weirder change of casting for me is Lauder Strickland. In TTSP he is an English slightly camp, officious type, but in smiley's people he's Scottish, arrogant and a bit of a LAD (and played by Bill Paterson).

[Don_Preston]

Roy Bland being recast by John Thompson was an inspired move, however.

[Talulah, really!]

Any body who likes the Television adaptations and is looking for something similar would do well to check out The Sandbaggers, made by Yorkshire Television around the same time as TTSS and Smiley's People, it has a lot of the same feel, the claggy polluted London streets, the grimy old offices where the most exciting technology is a push button telephone and the real meat and drink is in the psychological battles on the chessboard of Whitehall politics.

It's a wonderfully wry, cynical series with a winning sardonic humour and a mesmerising performance by Roy Marsden at the centre of it.[nb]And a cracking theme tune by Roy Budd.[/nb][nb]And as his secretary there is also a lovely performance from the still working and recognisable Elizabeth Bennett whose IMDB listing is a historical tour through the last 50 years of British TV.[/nb]

Here's the first episode, the first eight minutes up to "The Norwegians...." should give enough of a flavour to see if you are tempted (and the series gets better as it goes on).

The Sandbaggers: First Principles

If you like the Smiley novels, can also recommend the Paul Christopher series of spy novels by Charles McCarry[nb]Remember that Paul Christopher is the character, McCarry is the author otherwise you will end up reading a hell of a lot of stuff about the Knights Templar and wondering where all the spies are.[/nb], Christopher is like Smiley in that he is for the most part hands off from direct James Bond action, contemplative and smothered in tradecraft. The novels are well written thrillers, recommend starting with The Tears of Autumn which is based around a viable yet little aired theory[nb]From what I've seen anyway.[/nb] on the assassination of JFK, so at the very least you will be able to air that at the next pub bore who launches into "it was the Cubans."

[Kishi the Bad Lampshade]

This is quite an interesting take on the film, although I'm not quite convinced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WeEy1LcpIA

Chalk me up as another who loved the TV series, and the book. One thing I wasn't really into though was the characterisation of Bill Haydon in the TV series -

Spoiler alert

he seemed a bit too much like an all-round unpleasant twat and the "villain", which meant it was a bit underwhelming and not much of a surprise when he turned out to be Gerald. In the book, despite the fact that he's having it off with Smiley's wife, I think his character's much more nuanced and intriguing. What's more, in the book I think he works much better as a representation of a certain kind of old-style Englishness - charming, good-old-boy's-network, a well-travelled and talented bright young thing mellowing and maturing like a fine wine - which makes it the reveal all the more poignant and works really well with the themes of ennui and decay. As played by Ian Richardson I didn't really get any of that, he just seemed like a supercilious bastard.

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[FredNurke]

You buggers have made me buy the DVD twofer set so I can watch these again. I hope you're proud of yourselves.

[Bored of Canada]

This is quite an interesting take on the film, although I'm not quite convinced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WeEy1LcpIA

Chalk me up as another who loved the TV series, and the book. One thing I wasn't really into though was the characterisation of Bill Haydon in the TV series -

Spoiler alert

he seemed a bit too much like an all-round unpleasant twat and the "villain", which meant it was a bit underwhelming and not much of a surprise when he turned out to be Gerald. In the book, despite the fact that he's having it off with Smiley's wife, I think his character's much more nuanced and intriguing. What's more, in the book I think he works much better as a representation of a certain kind of old-style Englishness - charming, good-old-boy's-network, a well-travelled and talented bright young thing mellowing and maturing like a fine wine - which makes it the reveal all the more poignant and works really well with the themes of ennui and decay. As played by Ian Richardson I didn't really get any of that, he just seemed like a supercilious bastard.

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I agree with all this. I thought the casting of Colin Firth worked well for Bill. He's got that natural confidence and charisma to him that draws you in, that suited my vision of Bill when reading the book.

I think it might be an unpopular opinion here but I've not been convinced by Alec Guinness as Smiley in this. Oldman worked better for me but his old age acting and such didn't work for me either, but I preferred him to Alec Guinness.

Alec has this fire to him that comes through his performance, he has this layer of bitterness that he's injecting into Smiley and he often feels almost antagonistic with people. Alec makes him a bit wry and fills him with much more life. Which makes sense for a certain interpretation of the character. But from the Smiley books I've read, that's not my Smiley the way I interpreted.

He's far too composed and just repressed to just speak candidly like that. He feels like a character who wouldn't get outwardly angry, because he's just a quiet observant man.

Deep down,  there's a loneliness and sadness to him. He's emasculated by the knowledge that

Spoiler alert

Bill was seeing Ann, and tries to be civil and not let it phase him, which is the internal battle that keeps him busy and blinds him to suspect Bill, as he can't be objective there.

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He's a very composed man who I don't see being like Alec plays him. He wouldn't get outwardly angry because it's not proper, and that's why he crumbles and fucks up when interrogating Karla. He's the stoic silent observer confronting the stoic silent observer, and sees himself in Karla, and tries to cut through the wank and speak honestly, and projects and only tells Karla about himself. Everything is lost and nothing gained.

That's the scene that always stuck with me in the book. A very loaded and clever scene. I don't really believe Alec in this but I'm sure everyone will disagree.

[monkfromhavana]

There were other factors though in that meeting with Karla. He was sick, and tired after travelling around the world constantly looking for defectors etc etc. This caused the weakness that allowed him to reveal a little too much of himself to Karla.

[Bored of Canada]

There were other factors though in that meeting with Karla. He was sick, and tired after travelling around the world constantly looking for defectors etc etc. This caused the weakness that allowed him to reveal a little too much of himself to Karla.

Yeah definitely! Exactly right. But it's one of those lovely little character moments. Everyone is fallible and it just makes Smiley more human.

[Mobius]

I'm scared to read any posts because I'm only 2 episodes in but thoroughly enjoying it. Tarr is a great character.

[Mark Steels Stockbroker]

Another vote for Sandbaggers, superb  series.

[monkfromhavana]

Just finished rewatching it. Probably gonna do Smiley's People again now. I can't stop. It fits the bleakness, greyness and cold that is here in Poland now.

I also love it when Bland rattles off the list of Eastern Bloc cities he's been placed in, culminating in "Poznan... Have you ever been to Poznan?"

[Lady_in_the_Green_Room]

I like both TTSS and Smiley's People - like others have said, it's the unfolding of the action over the 6+ hours of the TV adaptation that's really well-paced.  The film just has to cut so much out.

I'd love to see a TV adaptation of The Honourable Schoolboy, or at least a film version, though I'm not sure who would play the Jerry Westerby character.

One of the scenes I liked in Smiley's People was the kidnapping and interrogation of the Russian diplomat especially the end

Spoiler alert

where is was revealed that the 'notes' that Smiley was referring to were blank pages

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. And the very end of the series, with it's echoes of The Spy That Came In From The Cold

If people are reading the books, I'd suggest reading them in the order below, it's not quite chronological, but you experience a really weird juxtaposition.

First read these books
- The Spy Who Came in from the Cold
- Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy
- The Honourable Schoolboy
- Smiley's People

Then read
- The Looking Glass War

The first few chapters of 'The Looking Glass War' are so different, it's quite an unusual experience, especially if you've read them all one after the other so they're all fresh in your mind.


[why yes, I'm quite the Le Carre fan, see me for further recommendations]

[Serge]

I'm scared to read any posts because I'm only 2 episodes in but thoroughly enjoying it. Tarr is a great character.

Yeah, Hywel Bennett is absolutely fantastic as Tarr. I won't tell you my favourite Tarr moment though, as it's from a later episode....

One of the scenes I liked in Smiley's People was the kidnapping and interrogation of the Russian diplomat especially the end

Spoiler alert

where is was revealed that the 'notes' that Smiley was referring to were blank pages

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.

"You are Wistern Spies???"

[ersatz99]

I lived near here for years without knowing that this would have been Karla's view as he defected from North Nottingham to the South. Forest's ground in the background there.

[monkfromhavana]

Yeah, Hywel Bennett is absolutely fantastic as Tarr. I won't tell you my favourite Tarr moment though, as it's from a later episode....

When he's

Spoiler alert

going to France to send the message that gets Gerald out, he does look quite camp.

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He looks a little like David Van Day.

[Serge]

Ha ha! That is my favourite Tarr moment -

Spoiler alert

when the camera pulls back to reveal him pointing a gun at the guy sending the message.

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[monkfromhavana]

Also, If

Spoiler alert

Hayden

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had stayed, he'd definitely be up in front of Yewtree with all that talk about his "angelic" boy.

[Norton Canes]

Thirded on The Sandbaggers. Much of it is easily on a par with Le Carré's best work. The last episode of series one/first of series two combo is astonishing (but you need to have watched the rest of series one first).

I'm not a great reader of Le Carré, but I would definitely recommend The Russia House as an excellent post-Glasnost novel.

[monkfromhavana]

Thirded on The Sandbaggers. Much of it is easily on a par with Le Carré's best work. The last episode of series one/first of series two combo is astonishing (but you need to have watched the rest of series one first).

I'm not a great reader of Le Carré, but I would definitely recommend The Russia House as an excellent post-Glasnost novel.

I started watching it last night, but found it a little clunky. I'm sure it's only a first impression and I'll give it a proper watch when I have more time

[Norton Canes]

It's one of those series where you absolutely have to get over the first hurdle. The opening episode is not entirely representative of the programme as a whole - it's the only episode to attempt any kind of large scale action sequence (and is therefore the only episode to feature an explosion), and it's hardly like something from the pages of Ian Fleming (although that's kind of the point).

Generally the editing and direction are as brutal as the storylines, which does make it seem a bit clunky.

[George White]

Been rewatching this.
Possibly the most accomplished drama the BBC ever made.
One thing that brings you in the background detail, capturing the era. From the close-ups on General Curd Jurgens' drawers to the image of Guinness standing outside a Classic cinema showing History of the World Part 1 and Honky Tonk Freeway, to Gerald Harper and Sylvia Syms in Francis Durbridge's Houseguest on at the Savoy Theatre. Which was a genuine production on at that time, but it feels almost like a wink, a take that, that the era of those kind of thrillers on TV, being taken over by the big-budget, internationally-backed, all-on-film serials like the LeCarres, like Edge of Darkness...
Even background things like Co-Ops and John Standing watching Ipswich onMatch of the Day.