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'How to be Idle' by Tom Hodgkinson

Started by Emergency Lalla Ward Ten, September 11, 2004, 07:23:03 PM

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Emergency Lalla Ward Ten

Anyone else read(ing) this? Excellent anti-work, pro-thinking rant. His main argument seems to be that authority/The Man fears idle people because they have the audacity to inspect their own minds too often.

He also makes the point about newspapers being a two-pronged contributor to the work ethic - the main headlines are there to scare you, while the aspirational/lifestyle shit in the free magazine is there to say 'These problems can be solved by spending money, which you have to earn'. I know other people have made this point (not least Marilyn Manson in Bowling for Columbine) but I find it's a hard one to argue against.

Anyone read it who disagrees with him? With the whole premise of the book, I mean.

Ambient Sheep

Quote from: "Emergency Lalla Ward Ten"Anyone else read(ing) this? Excellent anti-work, pro-thinking rant. His main argument seems to be that authority/The Man fears idle people because they have the audacity to inspect their own minds too often.
Not heard of this, but excellent - I've long thought this myself.  I've often wondered if the real reason behind all the dole restrictions that the Tories brought in in the early 90s was to stop people sitting on the dole, thinking, and becoming politically active.  I don't see it as a coincidence that the high levels of political activism that we saw throughout the 80s (or the 60s & 70s, for that matter) virtually died off during the 90s when people were forced to get a job or have their dole cut.

Likewise the increase in the appalling state of the pop charts - when the new dole rules were brought in many musos warned that lots of amateur bands relied on the dole whilst they got going, honed their trade, etc., and that without that many now-professional bands would never have got started.  From a purely selfish-for-the-government point-of-view, the campaign pointed out that popular music is a major UK export, and that the new rules risked hurting that.  The government, I think, promised to take that into account, but I don't know if anything actually happened.  I strongly suspect that this is why there's been such a rise in the number of manufactured pop bands, where teenagers are plucked off the streets by record producers and put together.  Bands don't grow organically any more, because they can't, unless Mummy and Daddy are rich and indulgent.

Quote from: "Emergency Lalla Ward Ten"He also makes the point about newspapers being a two-pronged contributor to the work ethic - the main headlines are there to scare you, while the aspirational/lifestyle shit in the free magazine is there to say 'These problems can be solved by spending money, which you have to earn'.
All excellent stuff too.  Must go buy this book, even if it will be a case of preaching to the converted in my case.  Then again maybe not...it'll only depress me...

Neil

Interesting, sounds right up my street.  I think the newspapers are also responsible for filling peoples heads with that "I don't pay my taxes so you can lounge around on the dole all day" nonsense.  The same people never seem to complain about "their taxes" getting spent on bombs and bullets though.

Quote from: "Ambient Sheep"Likewise the increase in the appalling state of the pop charts - when the new dole rules were brought in many musos warned that lots of amateur bands relied on the dole whilst they got going, honed their trade, etc., and that without that many now-professional bands would never have got started.

I remember this being covered in the likes of Select at the time!  What were the actual changes made though, I wasn't claming then so am not too sure.

9

That sounds like a decent read. I'll have a mooch for that tomorrow. Cheers for the heads up.

I'm kind of in that sort of situation at the moment. I need to be on the dole so I can have time to paint. The chances of me holding down a job in the day and being arsed to paint in the evening is not good.

Joy Nktonga

Ref. Neil
I'm not an expert, but if I remember, they introduced all that "working for your benefit" stuff in the name of re-educating and training in order to get you off the dole quicker, sort out the spongers and workshy with a swift kick up the arse, and to provide some cheaper than "real workers" workers into the workforce and give the employer a handout if he/she took them on. They basically tried to make it so that you could no longer sit around, work on the sly, go down the pub or "get smacked up" and all the other stereotypes levelled at the unemployed.

Sory about the over-long sentences.

Neil

Thanks for that, Joy.  I wonder if these reforms were also responsible for people getting offered work on a temporary contract, and then getting the contract renewed, before eventually being sacked and then rehired after about 18 - 24 months.  I'm sure most of us know someone who has had this experience, the firms stick to temporary contracts so they don't have to offer benefits like holidays or sick pay.  

QuoteI'm kind of in that sort of situation at the moment. I need to be on the dole so I can have time to paint. The chances of me holding down a job in the day and being arsed to paint in the evening is not good.

I feel much the same with the things that I do.  I make a point of playing my guitar every day, but have no real allusions to taking it up professionally.  Not that I'm ruling it out completely, but I just enjoy it as a hobby.  I've said before on here how I can't understand how people put up with a "normal" life-style.  Music is probably the most important thing to me, and I listen to it all day long, which I simply couldn't do if I were working 9 to 5, 5 days a week.  Worst case scenario would be that I'd have to listen to local radio.  Anyway, I just don't understand how people have a chance to indulge their hobbies after working.  Once you've done the days chores (cooking, washing up the dishes, cleaning the flat etc.) I can't understand how people can do much else with their time.  

I also enjoy getting out for a walk to the park every day, in the Summer I'll sit atop the motte in Moat Park and listen to music or comedy for an hour or so before mooching home again.  My friends now have jobs and kids, and they do fuck all.  Trying to get them to go out anywhere is a major task, even just going for a walk.  They're also far too knackered to do much after having spent the day working at their jobs.  It just seems like a bloody horrible existence to me.  They, in turn, often moan about me being unemployed.  Sod them, there is more to life than "having cash in yer pocket."

Ambient Sheep

Quote from: "Neil"I remember this being covered in the likes of Select at the time!  What were the actual changes made though, I wasn't claming then so am not too sure.
Yeah, one of the monthlies had a big campaign, so I guess it was them.  Sounds about right.  Both MM and NME ran ones as well.

The changes were basically "actively look for work or no dole".  Although in the 80s you were *supposed* to look for work, in practice after a while they gave up on you, especially if you said you were doing something else with your time.  I spent eighteen months on the dole in 1984 writing a Spectrum game, and they were fine with me doing that provided that I told them once it was finished and got the money, so that they could reassess where I stood from there.

I can no longer remember the actual technicalities of the changes, as I wasn't claiming either by that time, I was working full-time for my sins.  I think it was also around that time that they removed (or at least seriously cut) benefits for 16 and 17 year olds living at home, thus forcing them to either go to college or get a job.  In fact that might have been the main change.

Sorry to be so vague.

Ambient Sheep

Quote from: "Neil"I've said before on here how I can't understand how people put up with a "normal" life-style.  Music is probably the most important thing to me, and I listen to it all day long, which I simply couldn't do if I were working 9 to 5, 5 days a week...Anyway, I just don't understand how people have a chance to indulge their hobbies after working.  Once you've done the days chores (cooking, washing up the dishes, cleaning the flat etc.) I can't understand how people can do much else with their time.
We don't.  It *is* a dreadful existence.  When I started work I had to lose so many parts of my life, and my soul has suffered for it dreadfully as the years have gone on.  Sometimes I wonder if I'm not a broken man.

And I was one of the lucky ones, a job that I enjoyed for at least a few years, and in my line of work I could have a Walkman on for most of it.

Ever hear "Dead End Job" by The Police?  B-side of either "Can't Stand Losing You" or "Message In A Bottle", I forget which, the former I think.  Sums it all up perfectly.  I was determined that wasn't going to happen to me, but it did.

What was it someone famous (Stephen Fry?) once said: "There comes a time in every man's life when he must realise that he will NEVER play The Dane."

Not that I ever wanted to, but hopefully you can see what I'm driving at.

weekender

Quote from: "Neil"I've said before on here how I can't understand how people put up with a "normal" life-style.  Music is probably the most important thing to me, and I listen to it all day long, which I simply couldn't do if I were working 9 to 5, 5 days a week.  Anyway, I just don't understand how people have a chance to indulge their hobbies after working.  Once you've done the days chores (cooking, washing up the dishes, cleaning the flat etc.) I can't understand how people can do much else with their time.

It's fucking difficult, but somehow I make time.  I have to.  I have music running through my head all the time, and mostly I sing/hum/whistle when I'm in the office.  Weekends are an amazingly valuable commodity to me nowadays.  I also think that I've developed what I call 'quality thresholds'.  By this I mean I've been forced to cut out a lot of hobbies that I used to enjoy doing, because they're not as important as they used to be.  I used to love downloading an album by a band I've never heard of, or watching a film that no-one had told me about, and generally discovering things in that way.  I don't have the time to do that now, but what I do have is:

a) A respect for other people's opinions.  A quick browse of this site and reading certain people's comments on various media tends to push me in the 'right' direction.   I can't get everything though, so some things I miss.  For example, I've downloaded and loved every episode of CYE.  However, I have never seen an episode of Family Guy.  I intend to at some point, but basically my list of things to do/watch etc is so huge that I have to let some things go.

b) A strict inbuilt comedy/music control.  If something doesn't grab me immediately, I'll ignore it.  Again, I may be missing stuff through doing this.  In which case hopefully point a) will affect me retrospectively.

QuoteIt just seems like a bloody horrible existence to me.  They, in turn, often moan about me being unemployed.  Sod them, there is more to life than "having cash in yer pocket."

There is more to life, yes, I don't disagree with that.  However, my experience is that a 'comfortable' existence requires money.  That said, I'm 26 and I'm still learning that going for a nice long walk along my local canal bank is just as enjoyable (if not more so) than reading a book.

By way of linking to the initial post, my problem is that I don't have enough time to devote to thought.  If I did, I suspect I may have interesting thoughts.  However, because I don't, I shall stick with my hectic manic stressful lifestyle and probably burn out before I'm 30.

I have had a really slack time of it at work over the last 6 months, only having 1 Friday in that time and only 2 or 3 Thursday afternoons, hence, ever weekend for me is like a bank holiday. Far from it making me happy however, I'm starting to find it quite depressing, padding round the house in my pants and T-shirt. There are things I know I should be doing, finishing off renovating the house for a start (only started 5 years ago) but I find myself sat reading this forum for most of the day followed by a manic 30 mins house work before Mrs Trousers gets in from work at 5.30pm. It's amazing how much work you can do in 30 mins. I clean the kitchen, make the bed, put some washing in and start to make tea so when she asks what I've been up to I can run off a list of 4 things. Got it to an art form now.
Anyway, I digress. My point is that I feel happier when I'm working (being at work, not filling tax returns or plastering the landing ceiling) and I think it's because of how I was brought up. I never threw a sicky at school, my parents just wouldn't allow it, so much so that when I was genuinely ill if I was to feel ok at dinner time I'd feel guilty all afternoon for not going back in. Infact I have only had 4 days off sick in the 14 1/2  years I've been at work and that was all in one week. And I suppose that's how I feel when I'm at home on a Thursday day, guilty.

Tokyo Sexwhale

Has anyone done the obvious, "I'm too idle to read that book" yet?

I'm too idle to check.

Ambient Sheep

Quote from: "weekender"I have music running through my head all the time, and mostly I sing/hum/whistle when I'm in the office.
I bet they love that just as much as you do their TV-discussions!  ;-)

Quote from: "weekender"By this I mean I've been forced to cut out a lot of hobbies that I used to enjoy doing, because they're not as important as they used to be.
Yeah, I did that.  I think I cut the wrong ones, though, especially making music.  As I was saying to Gazeuse the other day, something inside me has died (to quote Carole King) because of it.

Quote from: "weekender"However, because I don't, I shall stick with my hectic manic stressful lifestyle and probably burn out before I'm 30.
<Ghost of Christmas Future waves back at you.  And don't laugh, I was as thin as you at your age.>

My GOD I'm so fucking cheerful tonight.

Geej

Just started reading this last night.  Fell asleep unfortunately.
Not because it is boring - heavens no, I was just tired.

The Idler (the magazine which he edits) is really rather good, I do indeed love it to bits, and read, and re-read it with the relish of a coke fiend, snorting any white powder that could be crusty white.

Almost Yearly

Quote from: "Neil"(Stuff)

< Looks around office; considers wife, child, dog, house, ffff car, bills; yawns uncontrollably; starts crying >

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten

I think it's a great book. He has quite a romantic view of idleness - ie, that it produces great thinkers and artists, rather than people who gaze at their Playstations - but it's a seductive one to read. I think he's right though.

His advice makes sense - sleep in, call in sick, have a proper/leisurely lunch (he hates the quick-fix Starbucks culture), ramble aimlessly observing people/buildings, don't feel guilty about drinking/smoking, don't feel you're sad for staying in of an evening, etc. It's only *physical* laziness he's in favour of - mental activity, he says, is to be encouraged. In other words, read lots of books (preferably in bed), and have political interests - protest about things that anger you.

He says people who do the above infuriate executive/managerial/money-minded/authority-obeying types because they don't understand them; they think they get in the way. There's a lot of truth in that.

But his starting point is that the whole mentality of 'Making time for things' and 'Work now, treat yourself later' is a profoundly depressing one, and that it needn't be that way.

gazzyk1ns

I'm as idle as the next person when it comes to work and responsibility but I must say that I don't like it when people try to excuse their laziness, I'm quite glad I can admit mine. People who can't often sound very bitter.

Sure, we all do something, but we're still lazy. Laziness isn't really to do with a certain amount of physical or mental activity, laziness is not doing things you don't like. I ran 35 miles last week, because it's a hobby/addiction of mine. I did enough gardening work to earn money for beers at the weekend, some PC stuff, and my phone bill. All hobbies/addictions.

So I did a lot, I ran 35 miles, spent something like 10 hours doing manual labour, and typed about ten thousand words to post in various places on the internet. I can honestly say I'm very lazy, though, because I can't stand doing things which don't appeal to me.

PyramidHead

Quote from: "Neil"I've said before on here how I can't understand how people put up with a "normal" life-style. <snip> My friends now have jobs and kids, and they do fuck all.  Trying to get them to go out anywhere is a major task, even just going for a walk.  They're also far too knackered to do much after having spent the day working at their jobs.  It just seems like a bloody horrible existence to me.  They, in turn, often moan about me being unemployed.  Sod them, there is more to life than "having cash in yer pocket."

I understand your argument, and I do have a family member who thinks that people who work are crazy.

But you're intelligent enough to know that the dole money has to come from somewhere, or rather somebody. If we all just did what we wanted, there'd be no dole would there?

I don't mean to oversimplify it, but isn't that the case?

Almost Yearly

Quote from: "Emergency Lalla Ward Ten"The Man fears idle people because they have the audacity to inspect their own minds too often.
Or disappear up their own jacksies and don't pull their weight, to put it another way.

Quote from: "Emergency Lalla Ward Ten"He also makes the point about newspapers being a two-pronged contributor to the work ethic - the main headlines are there to scare you, while the aspirational/lifestyle shit in the free magazine is there to say 'These problems can be solved by spending money, which you have to earn'. I know other people have made this point (not least Marilyn Manson in Bowling for Columbine) but I find it's a hard one to argue against.
Fine, but I'm always irked that these kind of viewpoints are so often worded as if a conspiracy was afoot, whereas in fact the culture just evolved this way. Not to say that it's the best possible state of affairs, just that no-one designed it. Thankfully the culture also evolved Marilyn Manson so the wage slaves can spend their hard earned on him rhythmically moaning about it.


We have to labour - it was part of God's punishment for the whole apple thing: ladies got childbirth, men got 37.5 hours of purgatory a week. I don't think it says anything in Genesis about being obliged to carry people who have radical ideas about sitting in parks though.


Spot the sad cunt sitting in an office.

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten

Hodgkinson isn't pro-dole necessarily - he's in favour of self-employment, setting your own working hours and not being a slave to some fucker several floors above you who docks your wages if you arrive seven minutes late. He argues that this was one advantage of pre-Industrial Revolution times - eg, if you weaved cloth for a living, you did it *because* you wanted to, and *when* you wanted to.

Easy for him to say, of course, being a successful freelancer with a shitload of contacts/journalistic experience. But then he'd argue that any one of us could be self-sufficient in the same way, whatever field we work in.

There are probably hundreds of holes in his arguments, but I like the book's general thrust.

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten

I don't thinkthe fear/consumption thing is a conspiracy (just a case of advertisers wanting large readerships and papers securing those large readerships by scaring people), but I still think it's a cycle worth escaping from.

He's not really anti-work particularly, just anti-anti-pleasure. He hates the 'Some people don't pull their weight and let the team down' attitude to idleness, arguing that it's an argument only ever made by management people, never by workers themselves. (Ever noticed that the only people who bang on about the importance of that awful word 'teamwork' are always the most mean-spirited, self-centred people in the workplace? The kind of people who want to take all the credit so they can grease-up to Sir that little bit more?)

I think the most important thing about Hodgkinson's book is not so much its anti-work message but its pro-dreaming/thinking/reading one. He argues that we can't cram these activities into a clock-watching weekend or lunch break - they have to be our main reason for living.

terminallyrelaxed

Heh, much like the painting and music thing, when I was claiming I spent all my time taking photos - well actually I didnt, as unfortunately film costs money, so I could never afford more than two or three rolls a week. I've been working since (although not right now) and like Neil says, theres never enough time to follow your interests; not enough daylight etc. I think a lot of people get the day job to tide them over while they pursue other interests, and the rat race slowly pushes their interests to the side leaving room for ambition and mortgages and all that.
Thankfully for me digital cameras have come along, and the need for film is gone so I'm getting back into it all...

gazzyk1ns

I think I'm going to go to the library and grab this, I've not read anything for a while and I left The Curious Incident Of The Dog In The Night Time in a mate's car after I'd read about 3 pages.

Almost Yearly

Quote from: "Emergency Lalla Ward Ten"he's in favour of self-employment, setting your own working hours and not being a slave
Well that's more like it, but I don't see how that's "idle." Tell me all the rest of the book, mate, I'm busy. Ta. ;-)

I mean, it seems obvious to me that if you want to eat you have to get your spear and your shovel out; or you have to do something for the spear and shovel bloke. Whether you have to clock on or not is a bit of a detail - you have to fish with the tides and dig in daylight; or give him his blow job when he wants it. Learning to enjoy standing in cold water, lifting potatoes or sucking off farmers is a spiritual matter I guess. Haven't mastered it meself. You could compose poetry at the same time I suppose, because like you say, you're going to be too knackered afterwards.

I'm just pissed off because when they said the world didn't owe me a living, apparently they were right. It's a very childish thing I know. I've heard before of theoretical gubbins whereby we don't have to work, but never in practical detail. It all kind of reminds me of when western students misinterpret Taoism's message that you can't do anything as an invitation to smoke spliffs and watch telly. Dole for the spliffs and mummy for the tv licence of course. It's alright, I'll let them do it for a while, like I did, but then I'll pass on the message about the world not owing them and eventually I'll hit them with spears and shovels.

I'm not arguing with anyone here, I'm just arguing into the ether to avoid work.

Pulped Yam

I'd read a couple of extracts from the book in the papers, found his attitude chimed with my own, and had to buy it as soon as it came out...

It's a brilliant book. Very witty and readable, full of interesting anecdotes and historical curios, and generally inspiring... it's good to read something that so unashamedly promotes fully taking in the pleasures of existence - lying in bed dreaming, thinking, conversation, lengthy lunches, beer, and so on. Particularly when there's so many depressing, even terrifying trends in the world - I guess  it works as escapism in one sense. Also, it puts forward the charms of reading, particularly poetry very persuasively, which is a nice tangential point...

But aside from the indulgent pleasures of taking your time, doing things at a more human pace - it's got me thinking a lot... One thing that's stuck with me, particularly in tandem with a lot of other stuff I've been reading about the way the West functions (media, science, religion etc) is the point he indirectly makes about the coming of machines - ie why, when whoever it was invented these industrial machines, did they not say, okay, we can do things twice as fast - let's all take half the day off..? The more machines there have been, the more people have worked - there are loads of examples of how the 18th century peasant had much more time than we do.

I think railing against our time being taken from us, Hodgkinson sort of hits on a really interesting point - I mean the vast majority of our work is completely futile - put simply, it's just manufacturing shit because we can... then manufacturing bullshit to sell the shit... in short a massive waste of all the world's resources and everyone's time. We're not all middle-class after all, we're all working-class, with a few bourgeois consolations - BMWs, EasyJet holidays, skinny Lattés.

It's clear that what drives the world's economy on doesn't make people in the least bit happy and have the side-effect of destroying the planet. Chained to this system, you forget the real pleasures in living are largely free - time, thought, love, friendship and so on... and don't have any destructive side-effects...

Anyway, I'm rambling... but there's a fuck of a lot to think about and discuss in this book and I could happily talk about it all day...

PyramidHead

Quote from: "Pulped Yam"It's good to read something that so unashamedly promotes fully taking in the pleasures of existence - lying in bed dreaming, thinking, conversation, lengthy lunches, beer, and so on.
I try to be as lazy as the next man, but so far this book isn't appealing to me at all. Are there really people out there who don't know that they should spend more time with their family and less at work?

QuoteThere are loads of examples of how the 18th century peasant had much more time than we do.
So they had more time to think about the myriad of diseases that they could die of before 30. Thanks, but no thanks.

Compared to then, we have better medical care, better access to the arts, the ability to communicate directly with people all over the world, and it's all a result of a lot of hard work.

It's true that the profit for that work is disproportionately shared, and it's true that limited resources are consumed. But (as I'm also too idle to read the book) what alternative does the author propose?

Surely most people arrive at a compromise somewhere between working 80 hour weeks and working 0, and do make time to do the things that they enjoy whenever possible?

Neil

Quote from: "PyramidHead"But you're intelligent enough to know that the dole money has to come from somewhere, or rather somebody. If we all just did what we wanted, there'd be no dole would there?

I don't mean to oversimplify it, but isn't that the case?

I don't tend to consider "What if we all did it", because I know we'll never get anywhere near that situation.  I know people who, for instance, work two or three nights a week on night-shift, but at some point they've had to take an extended period of time off work because of an illness.  I asked them afterwards how much they enjoyed it, and they replied that they loathed it, couldn't wait to get back to work, didn't know what to do with themselves at all!  So there's the first problem, many people simply don't know how to be idle because they've went straight from education into full-time work.  Someone in this thread has also said they don't like being out of work.  The work culture is hammered into us so that many of us simply don't know what to do when we have spare time.  How many people actually try and improve themselves?  How many people try and learn an instrument, or another language, or how to create something?  Work culture precludes that, people get their four weeks holiday a year, and generally piss them up a wall in Ibiza.  It's the same with weekends, people are so puked out at having worked all week that all they want to do is get pissed, or hibernate in their quilts if they have kids.  That's another thing, we should be able to spend more time with our kids during their formative years, they're excellent fun.  Why should we have to spend more time with work colleagues than with our familys?  It's insane.  

Ultimately, if we all refused to work, we'd find another system.  Lots of people would do things they enjoy, which overlap with providing services.  Hell, we could have everything automated by robots and computers if we really wanted.  Many years ago I remember hearing someone on Talk Radio saying that commercial flights could be controlled solely by the auto-pliot, and that the actual real pilots were there just to give people a sense of security.  Dunno if there's any truth in that, but it's an interesting notion.

Neil

Quote from: "Emergency Lalla Ward Ten"I think the most important thing about Hodgkinson's book is not so much its anti-work message but its pro-dreaming/thinking/reading one. He argues that we can't cram these activities into a clock-watching weekend or lunch break - they have to be our main reason for living.

That's it, that's it exactly.  I must get this book.  Even just watching comedy (for instance) and then thinking about it is a great thing to do.  A pox on these people who say "Oh, analysing something just takes the fun/magic out of it."  I like message-boards like this too, I think they're a far more beneficial way of spending time on the net than just looking at whacky flash animations.  I've learnt a hell of a lot from these sort of places, I like having a thought or idea rattling round my head for a few days, and then having to sit down and put it on here.  It forces you to collate your thoughts, to shake them up and get them into some sort of order... and just the act of having to translate your thoughts into words can take you off on different tangents.  

It took me years to realise this.

Pulped Yam

EDITED for coherence...

It's not a refutation of work per se, but more of the modern work ethic - I mean you don't set up a magazine and write a book if you're completely bone idle.

Still, it's no political text, and basically Hodgkinson's proposals are personal ones rather than sweeping social reforms... but that's his main point, and the general hints of anarchy in his writing are just extensions of that. Of course it's universally acknowledged that you shouldn't be a slave to work and so on - the book is hardly a revalation in that sense - but it is worth reading in that it luxuriates in the pleasures of thinking and reading and talking so enjoyably and persuasively.

My little digression was just sort of what I got thinking about and discussing after reading the book - I mean it may not be watertight, (and certainly it's easy to pick holes in some of Hodgkinson's points in the book), but the point was it got me considering these various questions. It's also part of a wider trend , touching on the Slow Food movement, the Play Ethic - which sounds worth a read - and a lot of anti-corporate thinking that's gaining a lot of ground, and seems a pretty positive force to me.

lactating man nips

In my experience of the working world I have found most of my problems were due to people being cunts, when certain people weren't in the workplace I found the days quite pleasant despite my job not being what I aspire to do. Thats said I also worked for a tooling company using fly presses and such and that was fucking horrible fullstop.

session9

I've done a variety of stuff where it's like the "work" has no meaning, no purpose, and there is nothing utilitarian about it. Might as well be breaking big rocks into smaller ones. It's not like earning wages by being useful, more like doing (poorly-paid) time in a different type of prison. That's a pretty melodramatic way of stating the obvious, but, really, all that's different about it is that in the bullshit office jobs, you get the sore arse from sitting in a chair all day.