Going Clear: HBO vs Scientology

[Hank Venture]

http://variety.com/2015/digital/news/going-clear-scientology-documentary-coming-to-vimeo-after-hbo-run-1201429779/

So, this documentary comes out 16th of March, based on a book called Going Clear written by Lawrence Wright which I've just finished... and holy fuck, is it completely fucking bananas. Cannot wait for this, it really made me realize how Scientology isn't just some odd novelty new age shit, but how actively sinister and malicious the whole thing is. Even the ex-members come across as massive idiots at best. Anybody read it?

[Hank_Kingsley]

Not read it, it's on my wishlist though.

Anyone reckon this won't make it to air? March seems a long way off...

[Bored of Canada]

If North Korea can get The Interview pulled then I don't see them being able to prevent an organisation with actual power and political sway from shitcanning this.

[Alberon]

I dunno, Scientology isn't the force it once was. Membership has fallen and the internet is about the worse thing that could have happened to it. Now people can share information and support each other when the cult tries to Dead Agent them or try other forms of intimidation.

Plus they're their own worst enemy. I learned all about the really fucked up nature of the cult when the Channel 4 web board was overrun by all these new people from overseas complaining about this evil new documentary C4 was running. This was sometime back in the late 90s.

[Hank Venture]

It's definitely going to air. HBO has reportedly ran it by 160 lawyers, and have already aired it at several film festivals, they're too big to be bullied by Scientology.

[lazarou]

I dunno, Scientology isn't the force it once was. Membership has fallen and the internet is about the worse thing that could have happened to it.

Recent reports strongly suggest membership was never even close to what they listed[nb]Basically anyone who ever took an audit gets in the books, which means nothing.[/nb] and is currently declining at a staggering rate. Current figures suggest there are more practicing Rastafarians in America than there are Xenu botherers. An estimated 25,000 or so (out of 300 million citizens) in the whole of the U.S. as of a couple of years ago, probably worse now. Even a decent chunk of scientologists aren't completely oblivious to how badly they've shit the bed in recent years.

[Old Nehamkin]

I read the book last year and thought it was fucking ace, particularly the first section that chronicles L. Ron Hubbard's life and explores his personality. Some of the anecdotes in there- especially about the period when he and his cronies were living at sea- are just jaw-dropping.

[Alberon]

I've not read that book, but I have read The biography of Hubbard called Bare Faced Messiah. It was forced off the bookshelves, but is probably still available free online.

[QDRPHNC]

Is the torture/murder number for Scientology even in the triple digits? If this was the catholic church we'd congratulate them for doing so well.

[Funcrusher]

Looking forward to seeing this at some point - the combined clout of HBO and Alex Gibney should ensure it'll get out there. Mark Bunker (aka Wise Beard Man), a long time adversary of the "church", also has a scientology documentary in production. Scientology is very much in decline these days - members are leaving in droves, few new ones coming in and they're just trying to soak any donors they have left for every last penny.

[Noodle Lizard]

Did anyone watch this (I assume it's on the torrents by now)?

Really good, I thought.  I mean, it's not exactly going to be revelatory to anyone who knows anything about Scientology, but some of the previously unknown details and first-hand testimonials from former members are very harrowing indeed.  There's a fair amount of footage of L. Ron himself being interviewed - I'm honestly not sure quite how that correlates with his reputation of being charismatic and persuasive, he seems like literally the least trustworthy psychopath imaginable.

Ugh.

[great_badir]

Is the torture/murder number for Scientology even in the triple digits? If this was the catholic church we'd congratulate them for doing so well.

This is one of the things I always think about whenever scientology (lower case "s" used on purpose) is savaged.  Yes, okay, it IS bat-shit insane, obviously a load of toss based on nothing more than the folding green, and pretty cruel for everyone other than those in the superleagues of the "religion".

BUT

they've never killed anyone or raped children.  Have they?[NB]asked rhetorically, but you could read this as a genuine question, because I don't actually know[/NB]  Is it really any worse than christianity, catholocism, islam, etc etc?  The catholic church is mostly built on money and dodgy dealings, yet scientology still seems to bear the brunt of criticism against organised religions.

Anyway, despite saying that, I lap up this kind of shit, cos I'm fascinated as to how people can be so gullible for something which is so obviously bollocks.

[Noodle Lizard]

they've never killed anyone or raped children.  Have they?

This documentary certainly hints at some comparably fucked up stuff, yes.  Which is quite impressive for a relatively young institution.

Is it really any worse than christianity, catholocism, islam, etc etc?  The catholic church is mostly built on money and dodgy dealings, yet scientology still seems to bear the brunt of criticism against organised religions.

I think it's because of their pay-to-play induction, and how litigious and intimidating they are when it comes to trying to leave/divulging anything about their inner workings.  As far as I know, you can drop your Catholicism and not be stalked as a result.

And, as I said before, it's new.  It's less than a century old, its roots are easy to examine, its inventor was still alive in most of our lifetimes.

It gets criticized more as a cult than as a religion.  When atheist types talk about religion, they don't really bother with scientology.  Organized religions like the ones you mention are too vast to make any concise condemnations about (though people can and do condemn individual aspects/incidents), whereas scientology is still basically run entirely by one fucking cunt.

Watch the documentary anyway.

[great_badir]

scientology is still basically run entirely by one fucking cunt.

Tom Cruise.

[Noodle Lizard]

Tom Cruise.

David Miscavige.  The section on Tom Cruise in this documentary contained some pretty unnerving information which I'm not sure was previously public.

[great_badir]

David Miscavige.

Yeah, I know.  I was just playing.

Sounds like an interesting watch, though.

[Hollow]

This is one of the things I always think about whenever scientology (lower case "s" used on purpose) is savaged.  Yes, okay, it IS bat-shit insane, obviously a load of toss based on nothing more than the folding green, and pretty cruel for everyone other than those in the superleagues of the "religion".

BUT

they've never killed anyone or raped children.  Have they?[NB]asked rhetorically, but you could read this as a genuine question, because I don't actually know[/NB]  Is it really any worse than christianity, catholocism, islam, etc etc?  The catholic church is mostly built on money and dodgy dealings, yet scientology still seems to bear the brunt of criticism against organised religions.

Anyway, despite saying that, I lap up this kind of shit, cos I'm fascinated as to how people can be so gullible for something which is so obviously bollocks.

But that's because most organised religions are supposed to be founded on truth from a millenia ago...that's what the believers believe anyway...where as this shit has been plucked out of the anal canal of a very poor sci-fi writer just last week, comparatively anyway.

You'd have to be a moron to believe in any religion...but this pile of shit more than most.

[Hank_Kingsley]

I've just started listening to the audiobook of this. Still on L.Ron's early days hanging out in Los Angeles with Jack Parsons, sticking his dick in everything, and generally being a lad. Great stuff!

[mobias]

  The section on Tom Cruise in this documentary contained some pretty unnerving information which I'm not sure was previously public.

Like what? I know a couple of people that work in the film industry and no one seems to have anything but good words to say about him as a person. That being said I've always found him slightly creepy, like he's hiding something sinister underneath that facade of endlessly grinning film star.

[Noodle Lizard]

Like what? I know a couple of people that work in the film industry and no one seems to have anything but good words to say about him as a person. That being said I've always found him slightly creepy, like he's hiding something sinister underneath that facade of endlessly grinning film star.

It's less to do with him being an inherently bad person, more to do with how he's been used by the church.  There's this story about how they trained some girl to be his girlfriend, which didn't end too nicely.  Just watch the thing.

[Steven]

I was sure that's why Kubrick cast him in Eyes Wide Shut even though he's a bit of a walking husk as an actor, because of the cult aspect of his life. Making a statement on and off the screen about that aspect of Hollywood. Though who knows, Ryan O'Neal was a bit similar nothing of a character in Barry Lyndon.

[Noodle Lizard]

I was sure that's why Kubrick cast him in Eyes Wide Shut even though he's a bit of a walking husk as an actor, because of the cult aspect of his life. Though who knows, Ryan O'Neal was a bit similar nothing of a character in Barry Lyndon.

According to this documentary, he'd distanced himself from the church since meeting Nicole (so since around 1990) until they broke up.  There was literally a team of people assigned to try and bring him back in.  I don't know how well-documented his scientology was until his "second wave" in the early 2000s.  Travolta, on the other hand, has been banging on about it since the 70s.

Just to name and shame some other celeb scientologists:

Jason Lee
Juliette Lewis
Giovanni Ribisi
Ethan Suplee
Vivian Kubrick (!!!)
Nancy Cartwright
Christopher Masterson (Francis off Malcolm In The Middle)
Elisabeth Moss

Basically, if you've been on My Name Is Earl, there's a good chance you are one.

[Steven]

According to this documentary, he'd distanced himself from the church since meeting Nicole (so since around 1990) until they broke up.  There was literally a team of people assigned to try and bring him back in.  I don't know how well-documented his scientology was until his "second wave" in the early 2000s.  Travolta, on the other hand, has been banging on about it since the 70s.

I haven't seen the documentary yet but they obviously use Cruise as a public figurehead since he's world famous, it's the perfect form of canvassing for them to portray rich good looking successful people as part of their religion. As far as I'm concerned Scientology is obviously just a hierarchic intelligence network like most religions actually are and the heads use the initiates at the bottom for money and information . L Ron Hubbard studied religions and cults through contacts like Jack Parsons and came up with the a 20th century con-job of not only having them advance up spiritual rungs (ala Freemasonry - advance up levels of knowledge and trust) but pay for privilege (ala Gnosticism - give up worldly possessions for spiritual betterment) and inform on themselves and eachother via 'auditing' (ala Catholicism - blackmail yourself and others through confessionals) and indoctrinate other people (ala cults in general like Hare Krishnas at airports.)

The Vatican are obviously more dangerous since they have 2000 years of experience, but Hubbard probably didn't have much of a gameplan other than sorting himself out for a lifetime, there's probably lots of dangerous goings-on as various factions try to gain full control of the hierarchy now.

[Hank Venture]

Reading the book left me in contempt of Cruise and in pity of Travolta. Cruise seems like a total scumbag.

[Noodle Lizard]

Reading the book left me in contempt of Cruise and in pity of Travolta. Cruise seems like a total scumbag.

Part of me wants to say he's just deluded and brainwashed, but then ... to know what he knows and still be the most prominent spokesperson for the church so long as they're giving him fucking houses and cars and airplanes ... yeah, probably a cunt.  The footage of him speaking at their annual conventions makes him seem like a dong of the highest order as well.

[Steven]

The footage of him speaking at their annual conventions makes him seem like a dong of the highest order as well.

"He won the religion!"

[greenman]

The Vatican are obviously more dangerous since they have 2000 years of experience, but Hubbard probably didn't have much of a gameplan other than sorting himself out for a lifetime, there's probably lots of dangerous goings-on as various factions try to gain full control of the hierarchy now.

There more dangerous because they have influence over billions but to the individual member(especially in the west) there generally less dangerous.

[Steven]

There more dangerous because they have influence over billions but to the individual member(especially in the west) there generally less dangerous.

Alter boys is less a position and more a directive.

[Hank Venture]

The film is less shocking than the book. Maybe because having read the book I obviously knew most of what is presented, but really because of the limits of a two-hour documentary contra a doorstopper of a book. Especially the exploits of young L. Ron is skipped over.

However, I recommend it, but if you're really interested the book is more in depth.

[Custard]

Cheers for heads up, Noodle. Can't wait to see this. HBO are on fire at the moment with the documentaries

Was there much in regards to Beck? Or Will Smith?